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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 33. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 15:06:40
At last, after a month of virtual abstination from drug experiments, I came to see my p-doc.
We discussed the effects of the clomipramine: it's doing something for my OCD, enough to make my wife notice it, and enough to be able to bear obsessive convictions (that keep bothering me and seem nearly unextinguishable) without too much trouble.
I told him I'd like to address my executive functioning and motivation now, since the clomipramine, although it isn't nearly as apathizing and demotivating as the SSRI's , isn't exactly helping with motivation for chores.
I told him how Rita paradoxically, since it has low abuse potential, makes me happy as f*ck while Dex comes on more naturally. He thought a Dex prescription would be a good thing to try. He's prescribed 5mg twice a day four fourteen days at the end of which we will evaluate wether the Dex is helping and is not actually making the OCD worse, which of course is also a possibility.
I also told him about some other meds on my wish list, but he likes to do things one step at a time, for which I can't blame him. And I revealed (please don't move this to faith, Dr. Bob) to him some of my fears for side-effects, like getting titties (gynecomastia) from too much prolactin (a possible but rare side-effect of SRI's and a more common side-effect with antipsychotics, Risperdal being the leader of the hyperprolactinemi-izing pack).
All in all, it was a good, open, balanced session, and I came out with a Dex prescription without any euphoria or Yes!- or I did it!-feeling, which I regard as a good sign. This is, somehow, serious.
My pharmacy has to custom prepare the (generic) dexamphetamine, which I hope they won't protest to do. I have no clue yet wether my insurance is gonna cover it. Doc thought they did, and said that Dex wasn't expensive.
Of course I hope to keep y'all updated on my Dex trial. If it doesn't work out well, I think my next suggestion would be Rita. But let's not jump ahead at this point. Let's do things one step at a time..
Posted by ed_uk2010 on November 4, 2010, at 15:18:53
In reply to Got a Dex prescription, rather unique in H., posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 15:06:40
>I revealed (please don't move this to faith, Dr. Bob) to him some of my fears for side-effects, like getting titties (gynecomastia)
I was going to comment ....but I restrained myself.
Best of luck with dex.
Posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 16:04:49
In reply to Re: Got a Dex prescription, rather unique in H., posted by ed_uk2010 on November 4, 2010, at 15:18:53
> I was going to comment ....but I restrained myself.
I was going to comment on your comment, but I too restrain myself.
> Best of luck with dex.
Thanks! Hope this is not the beginning of the end.
Posted by sigismund on November 4, 2010, at 16:21:22
In reply to The Upward Slope » ed_uk2010, posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 16:04:49
>Hope this is not the beginning of the end.
Absolutely not.
This is the end of the beginning.
Posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 16:53:31
In reply to Re: The Upward Slope » Brainbeard, posted by sigismund on November 4, 2010, at 16:21:22
> Absolutely not.
>
> This is the end of the beginning.Oh man. I had a good laugh over this. We are a bunch of fools. Lovely.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on November 4, 2010, at 17:05:44
In reply to Got a Dex prescription, rather unique in H., posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 15:06:40
>My pharmacy has to custom prepare the (generic) dexamphetamine, which I hope they won't protest to do. I have no clue yet wether my insurance is gonna cover it. Doc thought they did, and said that Dex wasn't expensive.
Do isn't dex normally sold in Holland? Or it's an import?
Posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 17:10:55
In reply to Re: Got a Dex prescription, rather unique in H., posted by ed_uk2010 on November 4, 2010, at 17:05:44
> Do isn't dex normally sold in Holland? Or it's an import?
I take it that you hit the 'D' in 'Do' when you were planning to hit the 'S'? Don't worry, bro, it happens to the best of us.
That's right, brand Dexedrine or any other brand of dextroamphetamine is not being sold here. Apparently, pharmacies have access to raw, bulk dextroamphetamine (but where does that come from???) which they can put into capsules or pills.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on November 4, 2010, at 17:25:43
In reply to Factory Of Raw Essentials, posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 17:10:55
>I take it that you hit the 'D' in 'Do' when you were planning to hit the 'S'?
Yep!
>That's right, brand Dexedrine or any other brand of dextroamphetamine is not being sold here. Apparently, pharmacies have access to raw, bulk dextroamphetamine (but where does that come from???) which they can put into capsules or pills.
Sounds a bit strange. Don't they just import the 5mg tablets from a European country where Dexedrine is sold?
Posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 17:44:30
In reply to Re: Factory Of Raw Essentials, posted by ed_uk2010 on November 4, 2010, at 17:25:43
> Sounds a bit strange. Don't they just import the 5mg tablets from a European country where Dexedrine is sold?
Well no, comrade, it appears not so. I just checked it and at the website of the Dutch pharmacies it is explicitly stated that dextroamphetamine is available by prescription in capsules that are *custom made* at the local pharmacy as the *brandless* dexamphetamine-sulphate.
I found a document giving technical details about the preparation, and it actually boils down to preparing capsules or tablets from raw dextroamphetamine with chemicals and fillers.
Posted by Phillipa on November 4, 2010, at 18:37:28
In reply to Chemicals And Fillers, posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 17:44:30
So it's compounded so your dose could be customized if needed? Phillipa
Posted by sigismund on November 4, 2010, at 18:40:25
In reply to Re: The Upward Slope » Brainbeard, posted by sigismund on November 4, 2010, at 16:21:22
>>Hope this is not the beginning of the end.
>Absolutely not.
>This is the end of the beginning.
I'm just quoting Churchill (of course).
Posted by ed_uk2010 on November 5, 2010, at 2:46:18
In reply to Chemicals And Fillers, posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 17:44:30
>I just checked it and at the website of the Dutch pharmacies it is explicitly stated that dextroamphetamine is available by prescription in capsules that are *custom made* at the local pharmacy as the *brandless* dexamphetamine-sulphate.
I see. It sounds remarkably labour-intensive. I wonder how much it will cost. Probably more than you would expect.
Posted by Brainbeard on November 5, 2010, at 6:33:14
In reply to Re: Chemicals And Fillers » Brainbeard, posted by ed_uk2010 on November 5, 2010, at 2:46:18
> I see. It sounds remarkably labour-intensive. I wonder how much it will cost. Probably more than you would expect.
Well, I picked it up today - at a new pharmacy closer to my area of residence - and asked about the production. They said they could simply order it and they had a stack. In the information that goes with my neat little bottle of dexies, the name of a specific pharmacy ('De magistrale bereider') is mentioned as the maker of the pills, dex 1mg and 5mg. The pills got 'dexamfetamine 5mg' on them (!). So I think most pharmacies will order these generic tablets. I thought Dex was exotic in Holland, but apparently that is not so! It is probably even covered by my insurance.................
Posted by ed_uk2010 on November 5, 2010, at 14:42:19
In reply to Re: Chemicals And Fillers, posted by Brainbeard on November 5, 2010, at 6:33:14
What dose do you start with?
Posted by Brainbeard on November 6, 2010, at 9:36:21
In reply to Re: Chemicals And Fillers, posted by ed_uk2010 on November 5, 2010, at 14:42:19
> What dose do you start with?
5mg twice a day, but I've actually started today with only 2.5mg. Placebo or not, it already seems to help me with doing chores in a (more or less) organized way.
What is great about Dex is that I know it doesn't interfere with my christian spirituality, where Ritalin/Concerta does.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on November 6, 2010, at 14:24:51
In reply to Spoilers And Spillers, posted by Brainbeard on November 6, 2010, at 9:36:21
Great - let us know how you get on.
Posted by linkadge on November 7, 2010, at 7:54:18
In reply to Re: Chemicals And Fillers, posted by ed_uk2010 on November 5, 2010, at 14:42:19
>What is great about Dex is that I know it >doesn't interfere with my christian >spirituality, where Ritalin/Concerta does.
Because I have had waxing and waning of spirituality on certain medications, I often ask myslef how accurate my religious belief system can be, if my connection with God is blocked by a molecule. Maybe I am inducing a brain chemistry similar to that of an athiest? How can I go back to "believing", in an all powerful force which can be selectively shut out by a simple molecule. What about the children raised on ritalin? If they fail to develop a meaninful connection with God because of the actions of methylphenidate imposed on them from early life, are they destined for hell? Could there concievably be a drug which works the opposite way? I.e. a drug which turns an athiest into a believer? If so, would religious groups deem it ethical to use such drugs as part of their church growing practices? You know, "welcome to the neighbourhood, try this pie spiked with Religinoft --> if you feel strangely religious, here's our church's buisness card". What about patients, like yourself, who respond well to a drug except for the disturbing side effect of "loss of religous belief", would they be candidates for Religinoft augmentation? Hmm, maybe I should start such an application on freepatents.com.....
be back in a sec...
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk2010 on November 7, 2010, at 9:24:22
In reply to Re: Chemicals And Fillers, posted by linkadge on November 7, 2010, at 7:54:18
>Religinoft
How would they advertise that one?
Religinoft - your ticket to heaven.....as seen on TV. Only available in the Bible Belt. Terms and Conditions apply.
Posted by Conundrum on November 7, 2010, at 11:04:18
In reply to Re: Chemicals And Fillers, posted by linkadge on November 7, 2010, at 7:54:18
I felt strangely religious after coming off prozac 7 years ago. I started reading the Bible and became more of a Christian on my own than a Catholic. I also was very obsessive about things, like one girl who rejected me. I couldn't stop thinking about her for a year until I met my next g/f. It was a very intense period of my life. I also was into astrology and numerology, which generally doesn't work with Christianity, but in my mind at the time all were connected, and sometimes I felt that connection and it was very moving. Sometimes I'd well up at work. The downside was I also believed in a lot of conspiracy theories. So my head really was not in the right place. Also I thought about religion so much I could not enjoy life, since according to strict Christian beliefs most fun things were off limits. No more rock music, or movies with violence. Also I had to wrap my head around the fact that most of the earth's population was going to hell and was I cool believing and loving a god that would do that.
Well I had been taking ginkgo since stopping prozac and it didn't help much with memory. So after about 2 years I stopped it and a month later the religious/paranoid feelings went away. The anhedonia got much worse, and part of me felt like the world had died, but I had my rational mind back. I was no longer tormented by thoughts of if I was going to hell, or my family and friends, or whether people are elected or choose to believe in Christ. I was able to look at the Bible and see contradictions and things that just don't make sense to a logical mind. The same was true with the conspiracies, they all just fell apart. I am no longer religious and no longer paranoid. I don't get that connectedness feeling, but I am much more peaceful now and glad its over. Although I miss the creativity when playing music.
My guess is that after stopping prozac there was some kind of dopaminergic rebound that ginkgo biloba made even worse, which triggered religious, connectness, and paranoid feelings. Stopping ginkgo allowed me to return to a more recognizable and rational version of myself.
So I do think chemicals can increase and decrease religious feelings.
It was one of the best/worst/ most interesting periods of my life. Most people will never get to experience that, but I'm not sure I can say they should envy that.
> >What is great about Dex is that I know it >doesn't interfere with my christian >spirituality, where Ritalin/Concerta does.
>
> Because I have had waxing and waning of spirituality on certain medications, I often ask myslef how accurate my religious belief system can be, if my connection with God is blocked by a molecule. Maybe I am inducing a brain chemistry similar to that of an athiest? How can I go back to "believing", in an all powerful force which can be selectively shut out by a simple molecule. What about the children raised on ritalin? If they fail to develop a meaninful connection with God because of the actions of methylphenidate imposed on them from early life, are they destined for hell? Could there concievably be a drug which works the opposite way? I.e. a drug which turns an athiest into a believer? If so, would religious groups deem it ethical to use such drugs as part of their church growing practices? You know, "welcome to the neighbourhood, try this pie spiked with Religinoft --> if you feel strangely religious, here's our church's buisness card". What about patients, like yourself, who respond well to a drug except for the disturbing side effect of "loss of religous belief", would they be candidates for Religinoft augmentation? Hmm, maybe I should start such an application on freepatents.com.....
>
> be back in a sec...
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> Linkadge
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Posted by Conundrum on November 7, 2010, at 11:08:42
In reply to Re: Chemicals And Fillers » linkadge, posted by ed_uk2010 on November 7, 2010, at 9:24:22
> >Religinoft
>
> How would they advertise that one?
>
> Religinoft - your ticket to heaven.....as seen on TV. Only available in the Bible Belt. Terms and Conditions apply.I think Religinoft would do the opposite and make someone less religious by the name.
"Does someone you know, running for public office, who thinks masturbation is a sin and that homosexuality can be cured? Do they often wonder off into witchcraft and other quasi-religious mumbo jumbo? It's time to talk to them about Religionoft."
Posted by linkadge on November 7, 2010, at 11:47:45
In reply to Re: Chemicals And Fillers » linkadge, posted by ed_uk2010 on November 7, 2010, at 9:24:22
>How would they advertise that one?
>Religinoft - your ticket to heaven.....as seen >on TV. Only available in the Bible Belt. Terms >and Conditions apply.
Do you not attend church cause you just "don't see the point"? Or maybe, you attend church but are just going through the motions? In a recent anonymous study, 6 out of 10 churchgoers reported some degree loss of religous sensation since their first conversion. Spiritual deficiancy syndrome (SDS) is a real illness characterized by feelings ranging from mild loss of religious interest, to total athiesm. Religinoft is the first medication in its class, designed specifically to agonize the receptors known known as I-see-the-light subunit delta, and correct SDS. With medication and counselling, most patients regain the capacity to experience full mountaintop experiences each and every Sunday. Religionoft must be taken every day to experience full benefit. Don't lower the dose of Religinoft without first speaking to your doctor as a discontinuation syndrome (characterized by sudden impluses of strong hatred towards all organized religion) may occur. Other side effects may include the following:
-excsssive prayer (defined as >6 hours/day)
-dancing in aisles / tears of joy / weeping
-desire to initiate street courner preaching
-excessive donations to church
-extreme fears of impending second coming
-martyrdom
-upper abdominal crampingFor most patients, side effects are rarely severe enough to discontinue treatment. A dosage adjustment may be all that is required.
Spiritual deficiancy syndrome is treatable. Talk to your doctor about Religinoft.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 7, 2010, at 12:01:12
In reply to Re: Chemicals And Fillers » ed_uk2010, posted by Conundrum on November 7, 2010, at 11:08:42
>I was no longer tormented by thoughts of if I >was going to hell, or my family and friends, or >whether people are elected or choose to believe >in Christ. I was able to look at the Bible and >see contradictions and things that just don't >make sense to a logical mind. The same was true >with the conspiracies, they all just fell apart. >I am no longer religious and no longer paranoid. >I don't get that connectedness feeling, but I am >much more peaceful now and glad its over.
Sounds like you were having a mild psychotic break. I had a similar break coming off celexa for the first time. When you're in one of those states you just don't see the contradictions and you can't think things through properly. The world can be "interesting" but a little too interesting. I've never been back there except with my parnate experience.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 7, 2010, at 12:02:16
In reply to Re: Chemicals And Fillers » ed_uk2010, posted by Conundrum on November 7, 2010, at 11:08:42
>"Does someone you know, running for public >office, who thinks masturbation is a sin and >that homosexuality can be cured? Do they often >wonder off into witchcraft and other quasi->religious mumbo jumbo? It's time to talk to them >about Religionoft."
Haldol might work too :)
Linkadge
Posted by Conundrum on November 7, 2010, at 12:17:15
In reply to Re: Chemicals And Fillers, posted by linkadge on November 7, 2010, at 12:02:16
> >"Does someone you know, running for public >office, who thinks masturbation is a sin and >that homosexuality can be cured? Do they often >wonder off into witchcraft and other quasi->religious mumbo jumbo? It's time to talk to them >about Religionoft."
>
> Haldol might work too :)
>
> Linkadgeor Notheopramine
>
Posted by Conundrum on November 7, 2010, at 12:51:37
In reply to Re: Chemicals And Fillers, posted by linkadge on November 7, 2010, at 12:01:12
> >I was no longer tormented by thoughts of if I >was going to hell, or my family and friends, or >whether people are elected or choose to believe >in Christ. I was able to look at the Bible and >see contradictions and things that just don't >make sense to a logical mind. The same was true >with the conspiracies, they all just fell apart. >I am no longer religious and no longer paranoid. >I don't get that connectedness feeling, but I am >much more peaceful now and glad its over.
>
> Sounds like you were having a mild psychotic break. I had a similar break coming off celexa for the first time. When you're in one of those states you just don't see the contradictions and you can't think things through properly.That is so true, and no one could get through to me. I was sure I was right during that time. This experience has given me some insight into how uber religious folks think, and why they do the things they do.
The world can be "interesting" but a little too interesting. I've never been back there except with my parnate experience.
How long did you have the experience once off celexa and how did it compare to your experience on parnate?
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> Linkadge
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