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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by floatingbridge on September 16, 2010, at 21:29:56
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » emmanuel98, posted by linkadge on September 16, 2010, at 7:27:11
> I do agree with you in a sense. But another part of me still doesn't really understand.
>
> I'm not saying *part* of the suicidal individual don't want to die, but I am saying that people make the decision to chose a method that is:
>
> a) 100% lethal or not
> b) can be backed out of or not
>
> If you chose a method less than this, then (consiously or subconsiously) you don't 100% want to die.
>This thread has been helping me to think through various related issues, like my grandmother's behavior and the repercussions for many generations. I
now wonder what the heck happened to her in Eastern Europe. Dinah was kind enough to comment. Many other comments not directly about my grandmother helped too.I've also thought through some personal issues. I have never attempted suicide,
though I have depression since childhood, abuse issues, etc. At my worst, I have heard, like a drumbeat in
my head, "I wish I were dead, etc". How many children say this in childhood? I
did. Medication and therapy have been
able to stop that automatic thinking, and
I am fortunate. When I slip, there that voice is. I've learned that engaging in this behavior is the sign that I need help asap.From this discussion, I also realize that, during the worst periods, I might not have been far from a suicide attempt
(car crash, pills) because attempts can be very impulse based.I have never truely wanted to be 100%
dead. Whatever the percentage was, I really wanted to feel better. I wanted
the pain to stop.Ambivalence is pretty much a human
trait, isn't it, though I'm not sure. To a greater or lesser degree. So is the
tolerance for ambivalence. Some despise
it, others thrive. I think I can imagine
now how suicide is thought of by various individuals, thanks to this discussion.How different we all are. When I was young and worked a late night crisis line,
our rule of thumb was that all suicidal talk was to be taken literally--that is, seriously, regardless of how often someone may have called, or if the caller was on a lark. I was sooooo naive. I did
my job, and well enough, but understand more deeply now.Ambivalence is o.k. More than o.k., ambivalence just is, like chlorophyll is green and water feels wet. To assign or insist upon a degree of sincerity in a suicidal gesture, thought, or ironclad
attempt seems to leave out alot of potential meaning and is a red herring that can lead productive thinking astray. Link, this post isn't directed toward you specifically. Though your posts have kicked off quite a discussion, what I see you saying above is that you do not understand and that you are trying to understand. I think that, in itself, is great.
Posted by SLS on September 17, 2010, at 5:53:00
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion..., posted by Maxime on September 16, 2010, at 20:19:24
> Well, I have posted on PB when I was *very* suicidal.
Some researchers like J. J. Mann believe that there is actually a neurobiological substrate for feelings of suicidality that are not tied to thoughts. It is comprised of both genetic and epigenetic factors. The point is, that for many people, feelings of suicide occur no matter what they are thinking or trying to think. It is virtually beyond their control. Anger and anxiety are often tied to the act itself. Perhaps there is a degree of impulsivity for carrying out the act. It can sometimes be an act of aggression.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on September 17, 2010, at 7:51:48
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » linkadge, posted by emmanuel98 on September 16, 2010, at 19:02:47
>And so what is wrong with this? That you want to >die 90% but not 100%. Are you saying that >anything less than 100% is being a wimpy >pathetic loser? I don't know what your point is.
No, I'm just saying that when you attempt suicide, generally either a) you die, or b) you end up hurting yourself really badly.
So, then wouldn't it make more logical sense, to either do, or do not?
Now of course, as I said, failing is better than succeeding, but I guess the point I'm trying to make is,
If you're not 100% sure you want to die...DON'T ATTEMPT IT!!!
Anything else, just doesn't make logical sense to me, since you open up the door to the possiblitiy of making your situation much much worse.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on September 17, 2010, at 8:11:29
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » linkadge, posted by floatingbridge on September 16, 2010, at 21:29:56
>I have never truely wanted to be 100%
>dead. Whatever the percentage was, I really >wanted to feel better. I wanted
>the pain to stop.Yes, I agree with you. Thats exactly my point, people want to feel *better*. But, attempting suicide, with anything less than 100% resolve, is completely incongruent with the individual's motives. People who fail at suicide can often feel much, much *worse*: irriversable brain damage, organ damage, gunshot wounds, blindness, paralysis, disfigurement etc. etc.
I just think that resolving to do something (or attempt) something so drastic as suicide without having completely thought though your intentions and all possible outcomes is extremely foolish.
But as mentioned, I realize that when people are in such a state, they're not thinking logically. They're not thinking through all the potential consequences.
Linkadge
Posted by Maxime on September 17, 2010, at 10:40:55
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » Maxime, posted by SLS on September 17, 2010, at 5:53:00
> > Well, I have posted on PB when I was *very* suicidal.
>
> Some researchers like J. J. Mann believe that there is actually a neurobiological substrate for feelings of suicidality that are not tied to thoughts. It is comprised of both genetic and epigenetic factors. The point is, that for many people, feelings of suicide occur no matter what they are thinking or trying to think. It is virtually beyond their control. Anger and anxiety are often tied to the act itself. Perhaps there is a degree of impulsivity for carrying out the act. It can sometimes be an act of aggression.
>
>
> - ScottThat's interesting. I know that I have been suicidal and not depressed which is weird.
I think about suicide a lot.Wherever I go I try to spot possible suicide options (tall building, construction, metro). I tired of seeing Montreal through my eyes
Posted by violette on September 17, 2010, at 10:58:09
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » emmanuel98, posted by linkadge on September 17, 2010, at 7:51:48
> So, then wouldn't it make more logical sense, to either do, or do not?
Emotions aren't logical...and that's very relevant-some people are overtaken by emotions, commonly referred to as 'emotional dysregulation'.
Others can consistently use logic to compensate or cover emotional distress. People can develop patterns from childhood. And as Scott pointed out, some people are more prone to lack of impulse control. It could be aggression-turned against the self-or aggression-against others when one feels helpless. Temperment can influence the patterns we develop. Some people are born more sensitive than others; some more agressive.
Being overly logical/rational can be just as maladaptive as being unable to regulate emotions. Some people do that consistently, often shutting out emotions. Others oscilate.
I'm moderately schitzotypal-so I tend to comparmentalize emotion from thought to compensate...so although i don't make suicidal gestures, as i sort of 'regulate my emotions' by seperating them from thought, this maladaptive trait causes a host of other problems as well. Much like rationalizing. Eventually these coping mechanisms just don't hold up-it is tiring for our brains to do this.
The key, imo, is to slowly integrate disavowed emotions with thought, undoing old patterns, to develop a new, healthy sense of self, which in turn, builds ego strength.
Posted by violette on September 17, 2010, at 11:01:45
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » floatingbridge, posted by linkadge on September 17, 2010, at 8:11:29
> But as mentioned, I realize that when people are in such a state, they're not thinking logically. They're not thinking through all the potential consequences.
That's what i was trying to explain in my last post, but didn't see your post here.
some people are overcome by emotions...where the 'rational' part of the brain sort of shuts down. Emotional dysregulation. Others are sort of trapped in the logic/rational part of the brain.
Just adding for general discussion, not to anyone here in particular...
Posted by floatingbridge on September 17, 2010, at 11:19:50
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » Maxime, posted by SLS on September 17, 2010, at 5:53:00
> Some researchers like J. J. Mann believe that there is actually a neurobiological substrate for feelings of suicidality that are not tied to thoughts. It is comprised of both genetic and epigenetic factors.What is epigenetic?
And if so, are therapies proposed?
Posted by floatingbridge on September 17, 2010, at 14:31:34
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » SLS, posted by Maxime on September 17, 2010, at 10:40:55
> That's interesting. I know that I have been suicidal and not depressed which is weird.
>
> I think about suicide a lot.Wherever I go I try to spot possible suicide options (tall building, construction, metro). I tired of seeing Montreal through my eyesThat is interesting Maxime. I cannot say I have felt suicidal in the absence of depression. (I cannot say I recall the absence of depression.) Very interesting.
Googling epigentics led to all sorts of things, notably a wiki entry on foster care and it's aftermath. Thought Violette would be interested.
Posted by SLS on September 17, 2010, at 14:54:46
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion..., posted by floatingbridge on September 17, 2010, at 11:19:50
>
> > Some researchers like J. J. Mann believe that there is actually a neurobiological substrate for feelings of suicidality that are not tied to thoughts. It is comprised of both genetic and epigenetic factors.
>
> What is epigenetic?Simply stated, it is anything arising from non-genetic factors. However, such things can interact with the organism to change gene activity.
> And if so, are therapies proposed?
Certainly. However, it depends on what you are treating. To help prevent the repetition of acts of suicide, cognitive therapies have been suggested. I guess pychotherapies must be as varied as the people needing help. I have seen interpersonal therapy, CBT, and DBT mentioned. It has been suggested that almost any kind of psychotherapy is helpful in reducing suicide attempts as many patients find hope in the expectation that what they are doing will bring them relief. In fact, a reduction in the rate of suicide attempts has been demonstrated to be similar with both antidepressant treatment and psychotherapies. At the NIMH, NIH, they noticed that people coming in for treatment often reported feeling better for the first two weeks regardless of treatment status.
- Scott
Posted by Maxime on September 17, 2010, at 21:25:45
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... » emmanuel98, posted by linkadge on September 17, 2010, at 7:51:48
> >And so what is wrong with this? That you want to >die 90% but not 100%. Are you saying that >anything less than 100% is being a wimpy >pathetic loser? I don't know what your point is.
>
> No, I'm just saying that when you attempt suicide, generally either a) you die, or b) you end up hurting yourself really badly.
>
> So, then wouldn't it make more logical sense, to either do, or do not?
>
> Now of course, as I said, failing is better than succeeding, but I guess the point I'm trying to make is,
>
> If you're not 100% sure you want to die...DON'T ATTEMPT IT!!!
>
> Anything else, just doesn't make logical sense to me, since you open up the door to the possiblitiy of making your situation much much worse.
>
> Linkadge
>
>Nothing is fool proof. People shoot themselves in the head and they just end up blowing half their face off. They stand in front of a train and just end up losing their legs. They try to drown themselves and they end of brain dead. Just because a person doesn't succeed it doesn't mean that they didn't want to die
Posted by SLS on September 18, 2010, at 6:59:38
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER, posted by Maxime on September 17, 2010, at 21:25:45
Maxime, I was thinking...
Is it possible that you are cognitively obsessed with the idea of suicide (either OCD or OCPD) rather than just feeling suicidal? Wouldn't there be an obsessive counterpart to your psyche, given your other conditions? Perhaps there is a cognitive aspect to your thoughts of suicide that is independent of depression.
- Scott
Posted by Maxime on September 18, 2010, at 10:08:10
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER » Maxime, posted by SLS on September 18, 2010, at 6:59:38
> Maxime, I was thinking...
>
> Is it possible that you are cognitively obsessed with the idea of suicide (either OCD or OCPD) rather than just feeling suicidal? Wouldn't there be an obsessive counterpart to your psyche, given your other conditions? Perhaps there is a cognitive aspect to your thoughts of suicide that is independent of depression.
>
>
> - ScottOh yes, for sure. I told my psychiatrist that I think that my suicidal thinking is OCD. He looked at me blankly and said "no". Even though he said "no" I still believe that there is an OCD component. Although my suicidal ideas get much, much worse when I am depressed, or feelings hopelessness. I feel hopeless a lot of the time. Me against the world and the world is winning. Maybe I wouldn`t feel this way if I were more social and around people (just a small group) and not so alone. But I am not very fun to be around when I feel this way (hopeless, depressed). I have few friends and the ones I have are scattered around Canada, mainly in Alberta.
How would I get rid of the OCD component? Would that be through therapy?
Posted by SLS on September 18, 2010, at 10:38:29
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER » SLS, posted by Maxime on September 18, 2010, at 10:08:10
> How would I get rid of the OCD component? Would that be through therapy?
Well, seeing that you have probably run the gamut of SSRIs without effect, I would move in the direction of psychotherapy. Perhaps OCPD?
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on September 18, 2010, at 11:23:24
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER, posted by Maxime on September 17, 2010, at 21:25:45
>Nothing is fool proof. People shoot themselves >in the head and they just end up blowing half >their face off. They stand in front of a train >and just end up losing their legs. They try to >drown themselves and they end of brain dead.
I would never say any of these methods are fool proof.
Linkadge
Posted by Maxime on September 18, 2010, at 13:00:27
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER » Maxime, posted by SLS on September 18, 2010, at 10:38:29
> > How would I get rid of the OCD component? Would that be through therapy?
>
> Well, seeing that you have probably run the gamut of SSRIs without effect, I would move in the direction of psychotherapy. Perhaps OCPD?
>
>
> - ScottYeah, I am tired of adding pills and more pills.
What's OCPD? I do need therapy so badly but I can't afford it. I am trying to find a place that works on a slidding fee scales and has dealt with people who have EDs.
Posted by floatingbridge on September 18, 2010, at 15:02:11
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion... TRIGGER » SLS, posted by Maxime on September 18, 2010, at 13:00:27
What is ocpd?
Maxie, I had thought similar to Scott's about ocd. Not just for you--for myself as well. My thoughts are often so repetitive that if I described them accurately, but in just the right way, someone would say ocd component. Perhaps why I receive relief from addition of an opoid as it is approved (I
believe ) as pharmaceutical therapy.When you wrote about Montreal, I had that flash.
Posted by Maxime on September 18, 2010, at 16:32:30
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion.... » Maxime, posted by floatingbridge on September 18, 2010, at 15:02:11
It's weird that I would tell my pdoc that I think my suicidal thoughts are OCD and that he didn't agree (although I don't think that all my thoughts are OCD.). Humph! I am going to talk to him about it the next time I see him. It's not that I want to take another med (i won't) but I like to get an idea of how to stop these thoughts. They are ever present and it's hard to make it through the day. It's exhausting. Every night I look through my stash of pills and it calms me knowing that they are there. There are enough to kill me if taken with some alcohol.
It's very interesting to think of suicidal thoughts as OCD. I hope other people post their thought on the matter.
Maxie
Posted by twinleaf on September 18, 2010, at 21:07:12
In reply to Suicidal thoughts a form of OCD » floatingbridge, posted by Maxime on September 18, 2010, at 16:32:30
I think that idea is very interesting. I think many people experience suicidal thoughts as somehow alien ideas that have taken up residence in their brains. I don't have them now, but when I did, I kept wondering why I had them. At first I had depressive symptoms without suicidal ideation, and then when I took Prozac I began having suicidal thoughts even though the depression was better. I've always thought that the Prozac did something to my brain to cause the suicidal thoughts. This is a little different from what you are saying, except that we are both saying that these thoughts are brain-based. They are not caused by a desire for attention, revenge, etc
Posted by Maxime on September 18, 2010, at 22:14:46
In reply to Re: Suicidal thoughts a form of OCD » Maxime, posted by twinleaf on September 18, 2010, at 21:07:12
Prozac and the other SSRIs can cause people do to be suicidal. Do you think that is what caused it?
Posted by Maxime on September 18, 2010, at 23:06:04
In reply to Re: suicidality exhaustion..., posted by linkadge on September 16, 2010, at 7:09:16
I don't think anyone is faking suicide or suicidal thoughts. I think when people get to a certain level of crisis that suicide seems like a good option. But they aren't faking anything.
Posted by twinleaf on September 18, 2010, at 23:25:40
In reply to Re: Suicidal thoughts a form of OCD » twinleaf, posted by Maxime on September 18, 2010, at 22:14:46
I do think Prozac caused them. I think Prozac has a warning about it for children, but I'm convinced it causes it in adults too. I guess the last thing the drug company wants is a warning in heavy black letters about suicidal thoughts in adults.
Posted by linkadge on September 19, 2010, at 7:22:39
In reply to Re: Suicidal thoughts and Prozac, posted by twinleaf on September 18, 2010, at 23:25:40
Theres probably some serotonin receptor which activates suicidality.
The brain has all sorts of *opposite* emotions. For me, suicidality is the opposite to being in love with life.
You know, that obsessive feeling where life is so magical and meaningful. Then the SSRI comes in and puts all that love to an abrupt halt. This might be part of the anti-OCD effect. The ability of the drugs to shut off the obsession with living.
Granted, that "obsession with life" can be very confusing and complex at times.
Kind of like being passionately in love with somebody. SSRIs are known to make people abruptly fall out of love with eachother; to cause that love obsession to quickly cease.
To truely not be obsessed with something, you have to hate it to a certain degree. This is what the SSRI does; comes in and makes you hate life to a certain degree. Granted, this can be a good thing, sometimes.
When I took SSRIs, it was like life had no depth, no deep value. All of a sudden, much of the magic was gone. I think the suicidality came in about the same time I could no longer feel that, just like I could no longer feel beauty in Beethoven.
It was a feeling of discust, I guess. Sure the drugs ultimately made me less sappy and emotional, but all of a sudden I was numb to being alive. It was that discusted, numb feeling that made me suicidal.
Like somebody coming in and tearing some beautiful artwork that you've spent a long time creating. It just makes you angry and bitter and callous.
The suicidality is almost like a protective coping mechanism kicking in. Its like "I can't feel anything, I don't care about life and I can take my life any time I please".
Same thing like with SSRIs and relationships "I don't feel love for you, I don't care about love and I can leave any time I please".
Boosting serotonin makes you feel that you are "in control". In control of your emotions, in control of your life.
I also think, that the suicidality comes in when control clashes with lack of control. Perhaps you feel trapped in a job (or other aspect of life), the SSRI tries to force your brain to reframe the situaion wherein you are in control. If that means using suicidality to feel in control, then so be it.
my 2 cents.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk2010 on September 19, 2010, at 7:59:47
In reply to Re: Suicidal thoughts and Prozac, posted by linkadge on September 19, 2010, at 7:22:39
Life never feels magical to me anymore. It feels quite flat and dull most of the time, but OK. I do feel like I must be missing out on something, probably a lot. No idea what to do.
> Theres probably some serotonin receptor which activates suicidality.
>
> The brain has all sorts of *opposite* emotions. For me, suicidality is the opposite to being in love with life.
>
> You know, that obsessive feeling where life is so magical and meaningful. Then the SSRI comes in and puts all that love to an abrupt halt. This might be part of the anti-OCD effect. The ability of the drugs to shut off the obsession with living.
>
> Granted, that "obsession with life" can be very confusing and complex at times.
>
> Kind of like being passionately in love with somebody. SSRIs are known to make people abruptly fall out of love with eachother; to cause that love obsession to quickly cease.
>
> To truely not be obsessed with something, you have to hate it to a certain degree. This is what the SSRI does; comes in and makes you hate life to a certain degree. Granted, this can be a good thing, sometimes.
>
> When I took SSRIs, it was like life had no depth, no deep value. All of a sudden, much of the magic was gone. I think the suicidality came in about the same time I could no longer feel that, just like I could no longer feel beauty in Beethoven.
>
> It was a feeling of discust, I guess. Sure the drugs ultimately made me less sappy and emotional, but all of a sudden I was numb to being alive. It was that discusted, numb feeling that made me suicidal.
>
> Like somebody coming in and tearing some beautiful artwork that you've spent a long time creating. It just makes you angry and bitter and callous.
>
> The suicidality is almost like a protective coping mechanism kicking in. Its like "I can't feel anything, I don't care about life and I can take my life any time I please".
>
> Same thing like with SSRIs and relationships "I don't feel love for you, I don't care about love and I can leave any time I please".
>
> Boosting serotonin makes you feel that you are "in control". In control of your emotions, in control of your life.
>
> I also think, that the suicidality comes in when control clashes with lack of control. Perhaps you feel trapped in a job (or other aspect of life), the SSRI tries to force your brain to reframe the situaion wherein you are in control. If that means using suicidality to feel in control, then so be it.
>
> my 2 cents.
>
> Linkadge
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Posted by twinleaf on September 19, 2010, at 9:50:11
In reply to Re: Suicidal thoughts and Prozac, posted by linkadge on September 19, 2010, at 7:22:39
You describe it so well. It's a terrible thing to have happen to anyone, especially someone in the prime of life who should be experiencing all of life's joys.
The things that happened to me within a few months of starting Prozac were (in addition to suicidal thoughts), an end to dreaming, loss of sexual desire and the loss of joy in life which you describe. I experienced less emotional pain, and both I and my doctor thought that meant the Prozac was working. I took various SSRIs for about eight years before I realized what a terrible effect they were having on me. It's been six years since I have taken them, and I am slowly returning to my pre-SSRI self. I think I'm about 90% of the way.
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