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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2007, at 18:11:31
In reply to Re: Betrayed and put into what type of condition? » Phillipa, posted by Quintal on March 31, 2007, at 16:30:36
Quintal thank-you taking last night ended up on 25mg total valium as woke with twitching legs so took 5mg more figuring it would help get rid of it which it did for all of two hours. Plus lunesta 3mg, and 1mg of xanax at bedtime. With 25mg of luvox. No off the ativan I think I was having a paradoxical reaction on it and dose was 6mg a day for a week and the week before 6mg of long actinc xanax. The xanax wasn't that bad. Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on March 31, 2007, at 18:28:04
In reply to Re: Betrayed and put into what type of condition? » Quintal, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2007, at 18:11:31
I think you did the right thing coming off that high dose of Ativan, it clearly wasn't helping and was causing so many side effects. I'm not surprised you have a headache and rubbery legs, you're probably going through a mini benzo withdrawal. My blood pressure was around 190/110 when I quit Klonopin cold turkey so that might explain why you're blood pressure's high right now.
I agree with bulldog about trying Lyrica, I think I've been suggesting it to you for some time since it can help with both anxiety and depression without the sorts of problems benzos often cause.
Don't expect too much of yourself, or beat yourself up for not being able to do things you think you should be doing while going through this. The med changes you've been through over the last month would make the hardiest of people unstable.
Q
Posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2007, at 19:34:08
In reply to Re: Betrayed and put into what type of condition? » Phillipa, posted by Quintal on March 31, 2007, at 18:28:04
Quintal thank-you again. I didn't know lyrica was for depression too. How would one go about making a swithch? Shouldn't I try to stabalize somewhat first? You have my e-mail. Love Phillipa ps my age and the BP is what worries me the most
Posted by greywolf on March 31, 2007, at 19:52:44
In reply to Re: Betrayed and put into what type of condition? » Quintal, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2007, at 19:34:08
Phillipa:Hang in there. You've been so nice to so many people here, you deserve to have good things come your way.
I've been away from PB for a few months, so I'm not very up-to-date, but can you take Traz? That's not the least bit activating and it might be a temporary fix.
Greywolf
Posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2007, at 20:02:26
In reply to Re: Betrayed and put into what type of condition?, posted by greywolf on March 31, 2007, at 19:52:44
Greywolf thanks I don't know. Love Phillipa
Posted by Honore on March 31, 2007, at 20:13:04
In reply to Re: Betrayed and put into what type of condition? » Racer, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2007, at 18:06:38
What other ADs besides Luvox have you tried Phillipa?
I had gotten the sense that you hadn't tried that many, but maybe I'm mistaken. There might be one that would be more helpful than Luvox seems to be.
I also thought you were quite unhappy with your pdoc. I'm not sure if it was this one, or one you saw before her, but you seemed to feel that you weren't being properly treated.
Are you sure about the effect of ADs? It's often hard to predict how someone will respond to a type of AD if they haven't had anything similar-- and even if they have.
There may be more options that you see at the moment.
Honore
Posted by johnnyj on March 31, 2007, at 21:10:49
In reply to Re: Betrayed and put into what type of condition? » greywolf, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2007, at 20:02:26
Phillipa:
I know we are all so different but luvox was stimulating for me. It actually led me down a very bad path that ended up with me feeling very down.
What has worked for me since a 5 med failure? Remeron at 15-mg has been working for my anxiety/gad/ocd very decent. It is helping me feel better and sleep is becoming better too. It helps regulate normal sleep patterns. It has taken about 2 weeks to get me feeling more stable. I wanted to jump ship on it too after a week but stuck it out. Don't drop and run so fast, you have to give things time wether it is a med switch or adjustment. Good luck. Prayers on the way....
johnnyj
Posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2007, at 21:21:07
In reply to Re: Betrayed and put into what type of condition?, posted by Honore on March 31, 2007, at 20:13:04
Honore so you don't think lyrica? I'm just on the low half a starting dose of luvox til the pdoc thursday. I never got up on it as I wanted to try EMSAM so bad but this pdoc said too stimulating. I've been on all the SSRI's and SSNRI's a couple TCA's and remember I'm getting old and they carry the cardiac risk and everyone in my family died of stroke or heart attack. See when I tried all the SSRI's had to quit cause of side effects as was different them peri-menopausal then. And I was also on remeron for sleep and it didn't let me sleep for about a month. The thing with the old pdoc is that she always asks me what I want to try. Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on March 31, 2007, at 21:27:57
In reply to Re: Betrayed and put into what type of condition? » Quintal, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2007, at 19:34:08
Phillipa you don't need to switch between drugs to take Lyrica. It's safe to take it with all the meds you're taking right now. I think it can augment the effect of benzos. Yes, ideally you should be stable when starting new meds, but Lyrica may actually help stabilize you as it can act as a mood stabilizer too.
Q
Posted by greywolf on March 31, 2007, at 21:47:34
In reply to Re: Betrayed and put into what type of condition? » Honore, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2007, at 21:21:07
Phillipa:
If there's one thing I've run into a lot, it's meds that make me sleep. If you haven't talked to your doctor about Desyrel/Trazodone, check it out. It's an older med that is very effective if you're looking to get a good night's sleep.
Also, have you tried Symbyax (Prozac and Zyprexa), or Zyprexa alone? I've tried both and have found them too sedating for me to work effectively during the morning hours, but they certainly did the job knocking me out at bedtime. I think they use Zyprexa off-label for treatment-resistent depression.
Just some ideas.
Greywolf
Posted by notfred on March 31, 2007, at 23:00:03
In reply to Betrayed and put into what type of condition?, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2007, at 15:28:37
Very rarely have I gone to a referral where the doc knew why I was there. So I bring them up to speed.
Posted by Fivefires on April 1, 2007, at 1:30:50
In reply to Re: Betrayed and put into what type of condition?, posted by bulldog2 on March 31, 2007, at 17:33:15
Guess could comment a bit on Neurontin and Lyrica a bit.
Looked thru my file. I always write a word or more, describing how I felt, etc. after taking a med on the label or description. All I wrote is 'good' re: Neurontin. Can't recall dosage. Can't recall why dc'd it.
And, I took Lyrica also. More recently.
W/ Lyrica I felt an immediate lift upon awakening after taking 75mg at sleep, I mean right b4 head hits pillow sleep.
So tried increase a bit. Didn't work. Taking more felt as if it lessened the feeling good. I stayed on it for quite a while.
For whatever reason, I dc'd it also, just recently. Just this week and even tonight was thinking mayB should go back on the 75mg h.s.
I've never been w/o a benzodiazepine accompanying the above, or an AD or anti-psychotic or mood stabilizer, except one time. That was 3-4wks before I had the breakdown in 2005. I was treated in the hospital w/ Valium 10mg 3x a day. If much more time had elapsed w/o receiving this, the Valium, I speculate I'd had suffered much worse damage.
One symptom preceding my breakdown was steadily increasing physical weakness, especially weakness in legs.
Another thing during the time of the breakdown; my weight fluctuated by 10lbs up and down.
I'll look through this pile of medication paperwork again in a.m. MayB more info re: Neurontin, or something which may be helpful to you.
I'm sorry I didn't see this thread earlier this Saturday.
Will read on.
thinkingofu, 5f
Posted by Ines on April 1, 2007, at 7:04:06
In reply to Betrayed and put into what type of condition?, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2007, at 15:28:37
Hi Ines,
I'm sorry you're feeling so low... :-(
We're all here for you
Ines
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 1, 2007, at 9:06:25
In reply to Betrayed and put into what type of condition?, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2007, at 15:28:37
I'm trying to get the story straight, so I put two posts together.
> I was betrayed by that new pdoc who said my anxiety was a physical cause. He took me off my luvox switched benzos for two weeks and upped them . Said to see the internist his friend and they would consult afterwards and have a plan.
They would consult *afterwards*. From what you said later, it doesn't look like you allowed that to happen?
> Saw the internist yesterday who had no clue what was going on. I feel betrayed.
Is this the endocrine specialist? (You say internist here, and endo later.) His only concern would be hormone levels, and your correlations with symptoms, non? What were your blood levels? Did he draw more blood? I'd expect that was what the "afterwards" was all about, to see what the changes in blood levels were on "undertreating" your thyroid, and withdrawing the Luvox.
> So called old pdoc expained what happened so back to luvox and valium for now which was okay yesterday after internist. But today twitching of legs and I feel like I weigh l00lbs and am now very depressed. I was hoping that it was my thyroid no. Now how do I get out of this depression it's bad. And anxiety with it. Rubber legs too. And fear. No trust and hope gone. Love Phillipa ps it took until now to be able to write this.
I think you interfered with a process that had not yet run its course. You went back to a doctor you didn't like, because he was familiar?
> I trapped the endo in his office and said you have to call the pdoc and he didn't till that morning and I said to the pdoc what did he say he said he meaning the pdoc had wanted to undertreat my hypothroidism. How stupid can a person be most pdocs' add some sort of thyroid med sometimes to help depression.
Wasn't the whole idea to get you off drugs as much as possible, to find out what your body was like, unmedicated?
BTW, Luvox put me into manic psychosis, so it's not necessarily true that it would help your symptoms. Didn't you already conclude that you were unhappy with that drug regime? Wasn't that why you went to the new doctor?
Lar
Posted by Fivefires on April 1, 2007, at 9:14:29
In reply to Betrayed and put into what type of condition?, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2007, at 15:28:37
Read thru all posts.
I've heard Remeron works well 2; never tried. Scared. It's part of the California Cocktail isn't it ? 'whomever' mentioned above?
I'm bad at trying new drugs. There have been ones I felt so badly on. I'd quickly get off. Mostly this was because I was working at the time. MayB a mistake on my part.
After re-reading your original post, I'm feeling you may have diverted a near breakdown here. (It was the discontinuation of Klonopin which was the culprit in my case.)
I'm glad you were able to reach your old P to get you Valium quickly.
How many yrs have u been on Luvox, and how long did you titrate off of it, if you did?
Did you do any sort of titration from one benzo to another?
I believe, even though they're all benzos, they're still different.
Do you think you switched 'too quickly'?
I don't understand why your P isn't finding something for you for SLEEP! If u use Valium for sleep, every time u take it your bod' is going to think it's bedtime. Any benzo. The only one I understand is specific for sleep is Restoril.
I'm glad your not on a high dose 'cuz mayB you would like to, in days or a week or more, try something else for mood or depression, titrating really slowly off Luvox, or add something to it.
I hope you're not thinking you can't live w/o that particular AD now; kinda' wouldn't blame ya' after what you've been through.
Can Luvox be taken in a very small dosage while you begin a diff' AD, MS, or AP until you notice 'some good feelings'? Or, 'put differently', can u add in something like Remeron or Zyprexa w/ an MAOI still in your body at a very low dose and await 'some good feelings'?
Re: meds you've tried before.
There are some I tried and felt bad, but at a different time in my life, tried and felt good.
Some which were effective and I dc'd for some reason or another, worked on a second try, but, like alcohol, needed higher dosage.
Lastly, RU on no thyroid replacement at all?
I wish your old/current P had some good ideas.
I, too, have to sort of 'suggest ideas'. What is with that? Is it because I don't have a particular type of depression?
sorryifsaid2muchorrepeated, 5f
Posted by Honore on April 1, 2007, at 11:20:33
In reply to Re: Betrayed and put into what type of condition?, posted by Fivefires on April 1, 2007, at 9:14:29
Phillipa, I'm concerned because I think you aren't doing some things that you need to do. Even if they're extremely hard, what you need to work on, or just make yourself do, is try another AD, and take a therapeutic dose of it, and then see, over a period of time, if it helps.
You have fears, irrational fears really, of the effects of these drugs. Even if they have unpleasant side effects, they won't do serious damage. The worst that happens is that you stop, and there's a brief period of time when you feel really bad.
I think we have to accept that, even if it's lousy, and even if, by now, one would think they could have come up with better drugs.
You have to just steel yourself to go through the terror, and just try to reason with yourself, about the reality of what is and isn't happening-- you need, I mean really need, to find a way to do it; Otherwise, you'll be stuck in this depressed limbo forever. I don't want that for you.
I remember distinctly, last summer or fall, that you wanted to try Emsam. You spent a lot of time and energy, here, with me and SLS, and others, trying to get the courage to do it. On the last day before your pdoc appointment (with the pdoc you've now returned to,)you got too frightened. I don't know what this pdoc said about Emsam, but unless she's psychic, she can't possibly know if it's too activating for you. Maybe she said that it might be-- maybe she had concerns. But you had already backed away, at the last minute, the day before.
You wanted (until you panicked) to go off the low (too low to be therapeutic) dose of Luvox, and try Emsam. Suddenly, you decided to stay on Luvox. Do you remember that? And your Pdoc suggested that if you stayed on, you go up to a therpeutic dose--I believe you mentioned 300 mg-- but you didn.t.
I want to emphasize: You never went up to the recommended dose. You stayed at the low, non-therapeutic dose-- which didn't---and hadn't--and won't-- help you.
You need to act now to push your life forward. I don't know what the right drug, or drug combination is-- but I'm pretty sure there is one-- not positive (one never can be) but optimistic. Whether it's Emsam, or Parnate, or Nardil, or some other drug in another class of drugs-- Trazadone, a newer tricyclic-- or again, a combination--
the one thing I feel convinced absolutely of is that continuing on 25-50 mg of Luvox is going to leave you where you've been for the last 6 months- year-- or possibly longer. In a very depressed, frightened, isolated, and immobilized place.
It hurts me to see you there, and I know there's not much I can do to help you try the drugs that you're afraid will kill or harm you seriously. I can only try to remind you of the things you've said while I've been here on Pbabble-- all of which lead me to believe, very strongly, that going back to your old pdoc, and your old regimen (low dose luvox) is NOT the answer.
I'm not against Lyrica; I dont know enough about it. I just know that you need something different from what you've been doing; and that it will be very hard for you to do it. I wish I could make it easier. But I especially wish I could communicate to you how much I think there is hope, if you could try something else-- with your old pdoc, or a new pdoc--
Honore
Posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2007, at 13:07:57
In reply to Re: Betrayed and put into what type of condition? » Phillipa, posted by Larry Hoover on April 1, 2007, at 9:06:25
Lar no. I went to a new pdoc distance more convenient. Yes the ides was a baseline off antidepressants. well i guess i got that. And I saw the internist who the pdoc told me to go see as they were friends he said. the internist is in the medical group as the endo so he had the chart and looked at the blood work he'd dont and based his assessment on that blookdwork. None done. When I told the interest that the pdoc had phoned med that day and said after the internist saw me they would have a conference. The internist had no idea what I was talking about. He said a conference about what? Also the pdoc had wanted to undertreat the thyroid with less meds and the chart shows it's in normal range now. To conplicate things more before I saw the internist the endo finally called the pdoc and no to undertreating the thyroid. This was told to me when the pdoc called me before the internist. I know I not making a lot of sense but can hardly type as I can't see straight and pulse is high, and still have indigestion from last night. Food doesn't seem to like me now. And I had kept the luvox dose low anticipating the trying of another med didn't happen. Love Phillipa ps gotta lay down again.
Posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2007, at 13:14:29
In reply to Re: Betrayed and in what condition?- Phillipa, posted by Honore on April 1, 2007, at 11:20:33
Honore no more new pdoc I don't trust him at all. And I know you're right. God I feel awful. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2007, at 13:44:00
In reply to Re: Betrayed and in what condition?- Phillipa » Honore, posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2007, at 13:14:29
The bottom line is the new pdoc lied to me. He said your anxiety is caused by a physical condition. The internist said not true nothing is wrong with the bloodwork. So I can't go to someone I don't trust and outwarded lied. The false hope of thinking for once that it wasn't psycholocial condition was taken from me when the internist said no it psychological. I'm sorry I'm a wimp. Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on April 1, 2007, at 13:45:29
In reply to Re: Betrayed and in what condition?- Phillipa » Honore, posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2007, at 13:14:29
Maybe you came down a little too fast from the Ativan Phillipa? Have you tried taking the equivalent of the Ativan dose in Valium to see if that helps stop the withdrawal symptoms? I know how awful it is, but things do get better once you adjust even though you might not be able to believe that right now.
Q
Posted by Klavot on April 1, 2007, at 14:19:56
In reply to Re: Betrayed and in what condition?- Phillipa, posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2007, at 13:44:00
I don't think making a bona fide wrong diagnosis is the same as male fide lying.
Klavot
> The bottom line is the new pdoc lied to me. He said your anxiety is caused by a physical condition. The internist said not true nothing is wrong with the bloodwork. So I can't go to someone I don't trust and outwarded lied. The false hope of thinking for once that it wasn't psycholocial condition was taken from me when the internist said no it psychological. I'm sorry I'm a wimp. Love Phillipa
Posted by gardenergirl on April 1, 2007, at 14:54:57
In reply to Re: Betrayed and in what condition?- Phillipa, posted by Klavot on April 1, 2007, at 14:19:56
> I don't think making a bona fide wrong diagnosis is the same as male fide lying.
I agree. Different diagnoses or opinions from different providers are often the norm. They're not lying. They are forming an opinion based on their understanding of the information presented to them at that time, filtered by their own experience and ways of looking at things.
Phillipa, he'd have no reason to lie to you. It also sounds to me like It's possible you didn't give the internist enough time to fully participate in your care. If he didn't know about the conference, that's not his fault, and it's not the pdoc's fault. "After" can mean immediately after as in right that minute, later that same week, sometime in the next month, sometime before you're scheduled in again, etc.
I know you're not feeling well, and navigating the way through this whole process is challenging even when we're at our peak. I would just encourage you to try to slow down, take a breath, and give someone a chance. I know it's hard, especially with anxiety. But if one doesn't collaborate with a doc to set up and *follow* a treatment plan, it's impossible to know what works and what doesn't. But I know it's so hard to be patient when you're feeling awful.
I know you've looked for a T before and haven't found one that would be a good arrangement for you. Perhaps you could work with one specifically on your thoughts and feelings about medications. I think this could help you two ways. First, it could help you through the difficult meds trials and adjustment phases. And it would also give you a trial with a T to see if you could work with him or her on other stuff once you get the meds set up in a way that's best for you. If you decided to try this, I think a T who does CBT would be a good choice.
What do you think?
Namaste
gg
Posted by Racer on April 1, 2007, at 15:37:49
In reply to Re: Betrayed and in what condition?- Phillipa, posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2007, at 13:44:00
> The bottom line is the new pdoc lied to me. He said your anxiety is caused by a physical condition. The internist said not true nothing is wrong with the bloodwork. So I can't go to someone I don't trust and outwarded lied. The false hope of thinking for once that it wasn't psycholocial condition was taken from me when the internist said no it psychological. I'm sorry I'm a wimp. Love Phillipa
You'd seen the new pdoc a few times, liked the guy, were starting to trust the guy -- and then ONE visit with an internist who said a few things that I'm distinctly NOT impressed by, and you're giving the internist more credence than the pdoc?
Jan, that internist really doesn't impress me. A lot of doctors will say, "Oh, whatever it is, it's not physical. Must be psychological." How about a show of hands here: how many of us here have heard that from doctors? And how many times has it been untrue? How many times is it physical, but the doctor didn't want to break a sweat? The internist doesn't have all the information, it sounds like. He's only getting part of the story, the raw numbers of the bloodwork which was done exactly when? What drugs were in your system or getting out of your system then? Gee, lemme think -- could changing drugs make a difference in those numbers? WHY didn't he redo the bloodwork?
Honore is right -- you need to do something, because this holding pattern certainly isn't doing you any good. If you don't do anything different, you will stay here, just exactly as unhappy as you are now, but without the hope you've had with this new pdoc.
Instead of running back to what hasn't worked for you, Jan, how about addressing this head on? ASK the pdoc what happened. Don't assume you are able to read not only his mind, but his mind AND the internist's mind.
How many internists know all the nuances of psychiatric treatment? There's a reason we don't go to our GPs for psychiatric treatment, right? This internist only looked at bloods and decided it was psychological? I'm just not impressed.
Jan, you have to decide for yourself if you're going to do what you need to do to get better. You're the only one who can decide to do those things, and you're the only one who'll suffer if you don't.
Good luck.
Posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2007, at 17:28:11
In reply to Re: Betrayed and in what condition?- Phillipa » Klavot, posted by gardenergirl on April 1, 2007, at 14:54:57
GG Got a PHD who works with CBT and just started seeing her too. Wasn't feeling all bad when I saw her. She's the one who gave us the name of this pdoc and said he was good with meds. I just don't know. 40mg of valium? Love Jan ps but I will take your suggestions on working on the med issue.
Posted by Phillipa on April 1, 2007, at 17:33:24
In reply to Um... » Phillipa, posted by Racer on April 1, 2007, at 15:37:49
Racer when the bloodwork was done no changes in meds were being done. Now I'm scheduled with the endo sometime this week for more bloodwork. For the thyroid. Boy I can't imagine what it will say this time. And I will raise my hand for thinking an internist isn't a pdoc. And also he doesn't want to see me again. It's like we made this whole thing up. Oh and gg the conference was supposed to be for that same day the pdoc said. Greg said the internist said he would review the endos chart first. I'm so confused. Love Jan
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