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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 33 to 57 of 90. Go back in thread:
Posted by Squiggles on November 4, 2006, at 19:16:16
In reply to Re: Best way of killing myself, posted by FrequentFryer on November 4, 2006, at 19:05:10
> Yeah I am kind of angry,, cos life is definatly unfair,,, and if there is a god who created us, he is either not perfect or crewl.
> If there is a god, he could have easily given the first two humans atleast a bit of extra Dopamine & Serotonin, then we wouldn't have people crashing into the world trade centre etc.
>If I remember correctly, Adam and Eve had all the dopamine and serotonin they needed to be happy,
but they wanted something new, something more, so they went to the Pusher Man (disguised as a serpent) and got some really bad apples. And yes, the Lord got angry and did send a firestorm to the twin towers. So, you better listen to your doctor and be a patient patient with your meds. :-)Squiggles
Posted by clint878 on November 4, 2006, at 21:06:50
In reply to Re: Best way of killing myself, posted by FrequentFryer on November 4, 2006, at 18:51:39
The fact that these antidepressants "poop out" all the time strongly hints at bipolarity, as well as your uncle's diagnosis.
Take a look at http://www.psycheducation.org/depression/STEPBipolarityIndex.htm, an index from Harvard used to test for a bipolar diagnosis. Just from what I hear here, you probably have about 40 points on that scale, and if you were young when you first became depressed, the score is probably higher.
Also, lithium alone is not that useful when depression is the primary symptom. Lamictal, Symbayx, or Seroquel are the best for bipolar depression, although I would never take the latter two as they are too risky.
Posted by Phillipa on November 4, 2006, at 21:48:48
In reply to Re: Best way of killing myself, posted by clint878 on November 4, 2006, at 21:06:50
What if a med never worked and you were told you were dysphorica as a child? And then had panic disorder in your 20's which was treated well with benzos till your 50's then you became depressed with the anxiety and panic still there. Could you be bipolar. Heck to have a med work for a few weeks there is so much I would do.. Love Phillipa
Posted by yxibow on November 4, 2006, at 21:59:13
In reply to Re: Best way of killing myself, posted by FrequentFryer on November 4, 2006, at 18:51:39
> Yeah Ive tried lithium before for 3 weeks but it didn't give a noticable improvement. My uncle is Bipolar,, after Ive taken the Nortriptaline for a month might try augmenting Lamictal.
Sorry that it didn't give you an improvement.. did you try it at a significant dose? Lithium is one of the main drugs in prevention of suicide besides certain antipsychotics.
Posted by clint878 on November 4, 2006, at 23:47:02
In reply to Re: Best way of killing myself » clint878, posted by Phillipa on November 4, 2006, at 21:48:48
Perhaps the benzodiazepines are your problem. I quit taking them because they eventually made me depressed. The depression was worse than the anxiety they were supposed to treat.
Perhaps you might try withdrawing from them slowly? You may find that the depression improves.
Posted by Declan on November 5, 2006, at 0:06:34
In reply to Re: wait a second?, posted by FrequentFryer on November 4, 2006, at 19:13:53
It's the most interesting (and profound, IMO) part of the New Testament. Think of emotions, of love...they work this way.
It sure aint fair.
Posted by linkadge on November 5, 2006, at 8:53:42
In reply to Re: Best way of killing myself » FrequentFryer, posted by Squiggles on November 4, 2006, at 19:16:16
"If I remember correctly, Adam and Eve had all the dopamine and serotonin they needed to be happy, but they wanted something new, something more"
Lets look at this on the flipside. If A&E had all had all the serotonin and dopamine they needed to be happy, they wouldn't have wanted something more. So as I see it, the capacity for sin, is infact a failure on the part of the creator.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 5, 2006, at 8:55:51
In reply to Re: Best way of killing myself, posted by clint878 on November 4, 2006, at 21:06:50
>The fact that these antidepressants "poop out" >all the time strongly hints at bipolarity, as >well as your uncle's diagnosis.
Thats just a speculation. Who says our miracle antidepressants must work forever? If everyone who experienced antidepressant poopout was bipolar, then....Its just a way for psychiatry to sweep their failures under the carpet.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 5, 2006, at 9:11:13
In reply to Re: wait a second?, posted by Declan on November 5, 2006, at 0:06:34
Thats the way that psychatrists covers their *ss on all their problems.
Manic reaction to a drug........must be bipolar
Antidepressant poops out........must be bipolar
Antidepressants don't work......must be bipolar
Can sleep on an antidepressant..must be bipolarLooking at it logically none of that is true. You don't need to have epilepsy for Wellbutrin to induce a seizure, so why would you need to have bipolar if it induces a manic reaction??????
How low would you have to go to pan off a Wellbutrin induced seizure...."I'm sorry, you have an underlying seizure disorder....Wellbutrin just unmasked it".Antidepressants poop out, because the brain adapts....period.
Antidepressants often don't work, because they may not be hitting the exact biochemical disorder which is causing the depression.
Antidepressants cause insomnia, becuase this is a common side effect. I'm sure they induce insomnia in lab rats too.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on November 5, 2006, at 9:17:49
In reply to Re: wait a second?, posted by linkadge on November 5, 2006, at 9:11:13
I don't know *what* or *how* drs. think.
It's all becoming overwhelming for me
to figure out. I read a lot of books.
I know some things for sure from experience, but the recent (25 yrs or so) proliferation of meds has just confused everyone.I'm just glad i am on an old drug -- lithium
for which the wise and kind Dr. Schou left
a guide to. God bless him; he was a true
benefactor to the mentally ill.Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on November 5, 2006, at 10:30:48
In reply to Re: wait a second? » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on November 5, 2006, at 9:17:49
It is a good thing lithium has worked for you. Don't discontinue it, as it may not work the second time around.
The first time I took lithium it sort-of worked. Subsequent trials just left me way too depressed.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on November 5, 2006, at 11:02:57
In reply to Re: wait a second?, posted by linkadge on November 5, 2006, at 10:30:48
> It is a good thing lithium has worked for you. Don't discontinue it, as it may not work the second time around.
>
> The first time I took lithium it sort-of worked. Subsequent trials just left me way too depressed.
>
> Linkadge
I think that's an old wive's tale -- like
take all your lithium at once to protect
your kidneys.Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on November 5, 2006, at 12:13:08
In reply to Re: wait a second? » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on November 5, 2006, at 11:02:57
Well, I've had about 5 or 6 psychiatrists tell me the same thing. They're not sure why it happens. Just like AD's sometimes don't work the second time around.
Linkadge
Posted by clint878 on November 5, 2006, at 12:31:58
In reply to Re: wait a second?, posted by linkadge on November 5, 2006, at 9:11:13
Well, there is a difference between a seizure and mania caused by an antidepressant. Generally, one isolated seizure rarely causes any long-term issues - the patient may be disoriented for a time, but fully recovers within a day or two. A large number of seizures is another story.
Antidepressant-induced mania, however, is not something that just goes away after you stop taking the pills. Manic episodes, even those induced by antidepressants, can last for weeks or months. The patient might commit suicide as a result.
More importantly, though, it's been shown that very few people EVER recover fully from a manic episode, suffering permanent cognitive dysfunction as a result. Some doctors like to say "well, you just had a little too much serotonin - it was just a freak thing," and in my opinion, they are vastly understating the severity of this phenomenon.
As to poop-out and all the other things you brought up, those just hint at bipolarity and could certainly be caused by other things. But with antidepressant-induced mania, if you weren't bipolar before, you are NOW.
Posted by Squiggles on November 5, 2006, at 12:44:18
In reply to Re: wait a second?, posted by linkadge on November 5, 2006, at 12:13:08
> Well, I've had about 5 or 6 psychiatrists tell me the same thing. They're not sure why it happens. Just like AD's sometimes don't work the second time around.
>
> LinkadgeIt has not been my experience, thank God,
though i confess that stopping lithium brings
you to dangerous head states (not as dangerous
as clonazepam).The psychiatrists who have told you this,
must have observational reasons? And not just
something they have read? Many variables may
play into this -- how long the person is left
in a psychotic non-lithium state, how much lithium and at what rate the patient is re-loaded;
how long and with what adjunct (like a benzo)
to calm the possible mania? Etc.Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on November 5, 2006, at 13:49:25
In reply to Re: wait a second?, posted by clint878 on November 5, 2006, at 12:31:58
>Antidepressant-induced mania, however, is not >something that just goes away after you stop >taking the pills.
I don't think that is something that has been thoroughly tested. The protocols insist that the patient be placed on mood stabilizers right away, before seeing what coming off the drug might do. Thats not fair. Antidepressants can induce mania in animal models. My mother had a manic episode on a TCA. She has since been on lithium. I would argue that the mania would have subsided if the drugs had been removed. If you take street drugs like meth, and have a manic episode, that doesn't mean you have bipolar. They will not put you on lithium for life. But somehow antidepressants are different? They're still messing with your neurotransmitters. The science isn't exact.
>Manic episodes, even those induced by >antidepressants, can last for weeks or months. >The patient might commit suicide as a result.
Not always though. A lot of people get stuck on drugs they probably don't need.
>More importantly, though, it's been shown that >very few people EVER recover fully from a manic >episode, suffering permanent cognitive >dysfunction as a result.
Its hard to say too, because all the drugs that are used in bipolar can cause major cognitive impairment. When I came off lithium, my grades improved 2 letter grades. They have stayed that way. Again, this could be a way that doctors pawn off the cognitive side effects of mood stabilizers an AP's. Well, bipolar causes cognitive impairment. Whatever cognitive impairment is caused by bipolar, the drugs make it 10X worse.
>As to poop-out and all the other things you >brought up, those just hint at bipolarity and >could certainly be caused by other things. But >with antidepressant-induced mania, if you >weren't bipolar before, you are NOW.
Hey, I can agree with that. What I was implying with the drug induced mania is this. We think there is a link between epileptic like brain activity, and some forms of mania. That is why anticonvulsants work in bipolar. So, if a drug can induce seizure like activity in normal people, is it too much of a stretch to suggest that they induce mania like acitivity in normal people?
Psychiatrists will never admit that their drugs can induce mania in normal people since then it is their fault. Instead, they simply pawn it off as underlying bipolar. Then it becomes "your" fault.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 5, 2006, at 13:53:47
In reply to Re: wait a second? » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on November 5, 2006, at 12:44:18
I have heard it directly from psychiatrists, as well as many places on the internet. You can ask SLS for instance, he's probably heard of it. Something to do with worsening if kindling perhaps ?
If you have a subscription to psychiatry online.
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/reprint/152/12/1810.pdf
Posted by Squiggles on November 5, 2006, at 13:58:45
In reply to Re: wait a second?, posted by linkadge on November 5, 2006, at 13:49:25
Whether medications can induce mania,
depression, or any other affective/cognitive
or even psychotic state, is not in dispute.
I think drs. would admit it. The important
question, (i think) is -- what kind of med,
how long taken? what dose? For example, do
you think that 1 valium tablet taken and then
stopped will turn a normal person into
a manic-depressive?Most of my reading on this subject proposes
that alcohol, or drugs, or shock, can induce
a full-blown psychotic state, BUT only in
people who already have a natural propensity to
become ill given the right trigger at the right
time.Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on November 5, 2006, at 14:13:37
In reply to Re: wait a second?, posted by linkadge on November 5, 2006, at 13:53:47
I don't have access to that. But I have
read of this in many places through my
meandering. *If* it's true, it has not
happened to me a few times -- the last one
it took 12 hrs. to restabilize when the
pharmacy gave me the botched batch. It took
six months to become bipolar again, after
20 yrs. of stability. It was a test in
dose juggling, but i succeeded.And, *if* this is known in the medical arena, it is a good thing i turned down a proposal to
switch to another drug. Because if another
drug did not work, then I would not have been
able to go back to lithium.Squiggles
Posted by johnnyj on November 5, 2006, at 14:53:32
In reply to Re: wait a second? » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on November 5, 2006, at 14:13:37
I was told by the pdoc that fire me recently that lithium causes no withdrawal. I believe this doc gave me a good dx but somethings he says seems to contradicte what I have read out there. He also told me that lunesta has no withdrawal. That is not what the company says either. When I told him I felt better without the lithium, and that it took about 3 weeks, he basically said I was lying and that is not possible. I was on lithium for unipolar augmentation. I have often wondered if the lithium caused some depression/anxiety in me and affected my sleep. I also had REM rebound when I stopped lithium which he also told me was not true. I don't believe I made all of it up but I questioned myself after he berated me. I am not sure what to think.
johnnyj
Posted by Squiggles on November 5, 2006, at 14:58:02
In reply to lithium » Squiggles, posted by johnnyj on November 5, 2006, at 14:53:32
I think that you should get another
doctor, as you seem to be having trouble
with this one: fired you? I didn't
know that doctors hired patients now --
was if for a drug trial perhaps?Squiggles
Posted by johnnyj on November 5, 2006, at 15:14:34
In reply to Re: lithium » johnnyj, posted by Squiggles on November 5, 2006, at 14:58:02
Squiggles, I posted this in an above post.
There must be something wrong with me. Today my pdoc fired me. He was a new doc for me, someone that finally gave me a good dx. I saw him 4 months ago, twice and then had to wait until a few weeks ago to see him. We talked about me trying therapy first and went over all of my stuff. He didn’t appear to remember a lot of my stuff from the first two visits but he said he wanted to see me again last time, so today I went. He said he respected my try at therapy but that I ask too many questions and it is a waste of his and my time. He seemed like he had decided to fire me before I came.
I told him I am having problems with lunesta and I was dizzy, and nauseated and had vivid drams., and that it appears a lot of people are too and that I thought I had some lithium withdrawal. He said “THERE is NO such thing.” He told me I was against all meds and I told him I was afraid. Basically, I was making everything up and I wonder if I have been? Am I just so ill as I don’t know it? The funny thing is I went there ready to give meds a try and he wouldn’t hear it. He said “go get a second opinion” “you don’t listen to my recommendations” “We go over the same thing, and you ask questions about meds”
I told him I hadn’t started the meds he suggested yet and we hadn’t even gone over the dosage, He said we “did go over that” The guy gave me ambien to try last time instead of lunesta and then says “I didn’t know you were on lunesta” today WHAT??? I was shaking and stunned as I left the office. I guess I am some big screw up. Where do I go now?? I am alone.
Posted by Squiggles on November 5, 2006, at 15:25:40
In reply to Re: lithium, posted by johnnyj on November 5, 2006, at 15:14:34
I'm afraid that you have to be
tactful with medical staff these days;
make an effort. They are under tremendous
stress. What I do, when I see my doctor
is take a shopping list of questions and
suggestions about my drugs. And I start
the meeting with a review of what's been
going on since i last saw him.I think that helps the doctor. I try to
be a good patient, even though i do have many
doubts and questions, because it is hard
to establish a working relationship.I'm sorry it has not worked out for you.
Don't take it personally. Now, you'll have
to decide if you can find someone else. If
your dr. suggested a second opinion, then
you already have an opportunity to ask for
someone else.Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on November 5, 2006, at 16:05:31
In reply to Re: wait a second? » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on November 5, 2006, at 13:58:45
>Most of my reading on this subject proposes
>that alcohol, or drugs, or shock, can induce
>a full-blown psychotic state, BUT only in
>people who already have a natural propensity to
>become ill given the right trigger at the right
>time.Well, I am proposing that there need not be any history, or predisposition to a mental disorder for one to have a negative reacton to a medication. When you're on antidepressants, you're on drugs. Cocaine for instance, will induce euphoria in 99% of people who take it.
Thats not a manic episode, and no prior mental history is needed.As far as seizures go, a drug can induce a seizure in anyone. Sure, some will have a higher seizure threshold, but a higher dose of a drug could still induce a seizure. Same thing goes with any drug. You are altering the brain chemistry, and there are no guarentees after that.
Its like coffee. If the dose is high enough, caffine can induce anxiety/panic in just about everybody.
People taking a antidepressant already have one strike against them. They have a mental illness. At that point, it is very easy to dismis drug effects as an additional mental illness.
Doctors are always denying that antidepressants can cycling in normal people. When a doctor dignoses bipolar disorder based on a reaction to an antidepresant, they are ignoring the possability that the drug was the sole cause of the manic episode. As a result, an individual suffers years of mood stabilizers, when the mania may well have abated upon dose reduction of the antidepressant.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 5, 2006, at 16:07:18
In reply to Re: wait a second? » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on November 5, 2006, at 14:13:37
Not to say that lithium never works the second time around, just to say there is a possability it will not work.
Linkadge
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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