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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 129 to 153 of 178. Go back in thread:
Posted by Hermit on June 21, 2006, at 12:43:45
In reply to Re: Opiates, posted by flmm on June 19, 2006, at 20:03:05
> Just because they are hard to get off of does not mean they are not effective, constructive drugs. Opiates, on the other hand , are clearly destructive.
Sorry, the facts say otherwise. If people abuse them, then their compulsive behavior gets them in trouble. But there is absolutely no evidence that opiates do any harm to one's body. (Overdose is another issue, but NOT an issue to those who use responsibly.)
> SSRI med are very powerfull, and need to be handled with more care then most people think. But for most people, they give them their lives back!
I'm sincerely happy that the SSRI's have helped you so much. They helped me a GREAT deal, too! In my case, I've weighed the pro's and con's using the available current research, and based on that research, I've decided that opiates are better. I'm not saying anyone here should take opiates! I'm saying this is the choice I made for ME.
Peace,
Hermit
Posted by Hermit on June 21, 2006, at 18:09:35
In reply to SSRIs » flmm, posted by Tomatheus on June 19, 2006, at 21:14:30
> > > Or how about this: if anybody out there reading this has been "given their life back" (or even benefited in a significant way) from taking an SSRI, why don't you tell us about it?
Actually, after trying several SSRI's over a span of 12 years, I finally did find out that I could say "gave me my life back." That was Lexapro. After reading up on it, though, I'm in the process of stopping that completely. (I found something else, anyway.)
SSRI's DO help some people. I don't think it's the best solution, however.
Hermit
Posted by linkadge on June 21, 2006, at 19:06:58
In reply to Re: SSRIs, posted by Hermit on June 21, 2006, at 18:09:35
Sure, they do help some people. They harm some people too.
Linkadge
Posted by flmm on June 21, 2006, at 21:48:07
In reply to Re: SSRIs, posted by Hermit on June 21, 2006, at 18:09:35
For people so anti-drugs, you guys sure know a lot about them! SSRI meds help me, my wife, and 2 of my 3 sisters, to name a few. Sure they are not perfect. But not too long ago we would all have been in the wacko-house! They help me personally function enough to get to work and live a productive life. Same with many of my friends and family! I am gratefull they exist, cause i would be done! Anxiety and depression are very serious and the drugs that treat them are some of the best medicine has to offer. The successes of these drugs will not be heard from on this board! This board is for something else, I am still trying to figure out what that is............
Posted by Paulbwell on June 21, 2006, at 22:54:08
In reply to SSRIs » flmm, posted by Tomatheus on June 19, 2006, at 21:14:30
> The fact of the matter is that most of these so-called "soft" forms of bipolar disorder never existed before the SSRIs were introduced.
Prozac has been documented to worsen depression, into Manic depression, a more serious disorder.
I have 'issues' when i read of a ~60~70yo person (with no history of mania) being treateted with Prozac-becoming manic, and Docs saying "it only bought out an underlying mania"-YER RIGHT!!
NO-the damn Prozac made them manic-ok Doc?
cheers
Posted by Paulbwell on June 21, 2006, at 23:12:16
In reply to Re: Opiates, posted by Hermit on June 21, 2006, at 12:38:37
""SRIs are some of the most physically addictive drugs in existence. To suddenly stop taking them is to feel so very much worse than you were feeling before you ever considered taking meds. There's a term, "brain shivers." You'll know it if you ever experience it. Mouse and I have kicked opiates and we have kicked SSRIs cold turkey. We'll take the opiate kick."
Hermit
Well perhaps the first PDoc i ever saw in 94' should have scripted me Opi's instead of the cure-all Prozac at that time? would i be a junkie today? who knows, but Prozac was relatively easy to get off-despite the 20kgs of fat i put on:(.
Cheers
Posted by Tomatheus on June 21, 2006, at 23:13:34
In reply to Re: SSRIs, posted by flmm on June 21, 2006, at 21:48:07
Are SSRIs helpful for some depressed individuals? Absolutely.
It's great to hear that SSRIs helped you, your wife, 2 of your 3 sisters, and others. Don't get me wrong, I do think that there are SSRI responders out there, and for these individuals, the SSRIs can be life savers.
But based on all the SSRI-related research studies I've read and all messages I've read on this board and other boards, I hardly think it's accurate to state that SSRIs give most people their lives back. If that were the case, then we wouldn't be hearing about all these covered up research studies that showed SSRIs to be no more effective than placebo in treating depression. (Note: I'm not saying that the results of *all* -- or even most -- studies suggest this; what I'm suggesting is that there were a few studies that found certain SSRIs to be no more effective than placebo, and the results of some of these studies were hidden from the public by pharmaceutical companies.)
And in terms of efficacy, it is my impression from the research that I've done that the SSRIs and other newer ADs (e.g., SSNRIs, Wellbutrin) are at least somewhat inferior to the TCAs and MAOIs. Sure, they tend to cause fewer side effects than the TCAs, and they don't require the dietary restrictions that the MAOIs required. But they're not the ultra-safe wonder drugs that they've been made out to be, and compared with the older ADs, they're only marginally effective.
Now, of course, if you find that you've benefited significantly from maintenance doses of SSRIs, keep taking them. But don't just assume that the response that you get is indicative of the response that "most people" will experience.
Tomatheus
> For people so anti-drugs, you guys sure know a lot about them! SSRI meds help me, my wife, and 2 of my 3 sisters, to name a few. Sure they are not perfect. But not too long ago we would all have been in the wacko-house! They help me personally function enough to get to work and live a productive life. Same with many of my friends and family! I am gratefull they exist, cause i would be done! Anxiety and depression are very serious and the drugs that treat them are some of the best medicine has to offer. The successes of these drugs will not be heard from on this board! This board is for something else, I am still trying to figure out what that is............
Posted by Squiggles on June 21, 2006, at 23:20:10
In reply to Re: SSRIs » flmm, posted by Tomatheus on June 21, 2006, at 23:13:34
I give up. You may have read the long
conversation not long ago on Dr. Healy
supporting the "victims" of SSRI withdrawal
and pre-therapeutic level disasters -- so
much statistical evidence to support the
use of Prozac -- so little science to explain
the suicides, murders, manic responses, etc.I think that the political machinery is
as active and strong in pharmaceutical
marketing today, as it is in war.Really, I don't think anybody knows what
they're doing anymore. So, if opiates
would work, we wouldn't know about it.Squiggles
Posted by jedi on June 22, 2006, at 0:58:42
In reply to Re: SSRIs, posted by flmm on June 21, 2006, at 21:48:07
> For people so anti-drugs, you guys sure know a lot about them! SSRI meds help me, my wife, and 2 of my 3 sisters, to name a few. Sure they are not perfect. But not too long ago we would all have been in the wacko-house! They help me personally function enough to get to work and live a productive life. Same with many of my friends and family! I am gratefull they exist, cause i would be done! Anxiety and depression are very serious and the drugs that treat them are some of the best medicine has to offer. The successes of these drugs will not be heard from on this board! This board is for something else, I am still trying to figure out what that is............
Hi flmm,
I've mentioned several times that this board atracts people who are at a minimum, treatment resistant. I've been on 35+ different combinations of medications, including most of the SSRIs. The only meds that have worked long term for my atypical depression & social anxiety have been a combination of Nardil & clonazepam. I believe that a great many people are probably helped by the SSRIs, but they are not represented here in any great number. Most of these people will take a SSRI short term to get over a situational depression, then get on with their lives. Most of the people on the med board here have been fighting depression and other psychiatric disorders for years. That probably makes us a little better informed than the usual patient, but can also lead to some prejudices that naturally follow multiple failures with different meds.
Take care,
Jedi
Posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 1:13:47
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » flmm, posted by jedi on June 22, 2006, at 0:58:42
> Hi flmm,
> I've mentioned several times that this board atracts people who are at a minimum, treatment resistant.'So everyone here is a f*cked up f*ck up?
SSRI'S suck plain@simple-i should know, i'v taken 3-4 of the f*cking things. in 100 years my grandchilds kids will be talking bout them, in the way we speak of 1906-'treatments', Mrs winslows cough syrup-containing 65mgs Morphine per dose, or Mr smiths 'pep' tonic' Cocaine bound.Cheers
Posted by gardenergirl on June 22, 2006, at 1:31:32
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board, posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 1:13:47
Posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 1:46:33
In reply to Having a bad night? (nm) » Paulbwell, posted by gardenergirl on June 22, 2006, at 1:31:32
NO-not inordinately, nothing that 60mgs valium+a few drinks, or better still, 100mgs Nembutal would put a stop to-alas i'm not a Vet-Doc so no luck there:)
What i posted stands, SSRI's suck for me, and many others, they are brain anathetics, and not in a good way like the MSIR-20mg tabs i found relief in-at least they anathetised me@i didn't feel any noticable SE's unlike the SE ridden SSRI's.
have a good day:)
Cheers
Posted by gardenergirl on June 22, 2006, at 2:27:14
In reply to Re: Having a bad night? » gardenergirl, posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 1:46:33
Sorry, I was not questioning what you posted, just commenting on the intensity. That's all.
gg
Posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 2:33:34
In reply to Re: Having a bad night? » Paulbwell, posted by gardenergirl on June 22, 2006, at 2:27:14
> Sorry, I was not questioning what you posted, just commenting on the intensity. That's all.
>
> ggCoolness girl, we are all in this together?. Any info welcommed
Cheers
Posted by gardenergirl on June 22, 2006, at 3:41:47
In reply to Re: Having a bad night? » gardenergirl, posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 2:33:34
Posted by Donna Louise on June 22, 2006, at 5:17:33
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » flmm, posted by jedi on June 22, 2006, at 0:58:42
> > For people so anti-drugs, you guys sure know a lot about them! SSRI meds help me, my wife, and 2 of my 3 sisters, to name a few. Sure they are not perfect. But not too long ago we would all have been in the wacko-house! They help me personally function enough to get to work and live a productive life. Same with many of my friends and family! I am gratefull they exist, cause i would be done! Anxiety and depression are very serious and the drugs that treat them are some of the best medicine has to offer. The successes of these drugs will not be heard from on this board! This board is for something else, I am still trying to figure out what that is............
>
> Hi flmm,
> I've mentioned several times that this board atracts people who are at a minimum, treatment resistant. I've been on 35+ different combinations of medications, including most of the SSRIs. The only meds that have worked long term for my atypical depression & social anxiety have been a combination of Nardil & clonazepam. I believe that a great many people are probably helped by the SSRIs, but they are not represented here in any great number. Most of these people will take a SSRI short term to get over a situational depression, then get on with their lives. Most of the people on the med board here have been fighting depression and other psychiatric disorders for years. That probably makes us a little better informed than the usual patient, but can also lead to some prejudices that naturally follow multiple failures with different meds.
> Take care,
> Jedi
Thanks for explaining my position so well. This board helps me feel not alone, which is so important to me. If that is the only purpose it serves, well, that sometimes is more helpful to me than alot of the meds.donna
Posted by Donna Louise on June 22, 2006, at 5:21:28
In reply to Re: Having a bad night? » gardenergirl, posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 1:46:33
> NO-not inordinately, nothing that 60mgs valium+a few drinks, or better still, 100mgs Nembutal would put a stop to-alas i'm not a Vet-Doc so no luck there:)
>
> What i posted stands, SSRI's suck for me, and many others, they are brain anathetics, and not in a good way like the MSIR-20mg tabs i found relief in-at least they anathetised me@i didn't feel any noticable SE's unlike the SE ridden SSRI's.
>
> have a good day:)
>
> CheersHey Paul, just curious, what are MSIR tabs? Do you live in outside the states? I know valium, nembutal and alcohol quite well, but have not heard of this other thing. Maybe I know it by a different name. From my wild and crazy past. Not to say I am not crazy in the present, just not wild :-)))
donna
Posted by Declan on June 22, 2006, at 11:56:02
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board, posted by Paulbwell on June 22, 2006, at 1:13:47
In a hundred years people will still be seeking Mrs Winslow's and Collis Brown. Right now I'm not seeking SSRIs and I doubt people will want them in a hundred years. The others will be around though.
Declan
Posted by linkadge on June 22, 2006, at 17:55:48
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » Paulbwell, posted by Declan on June 22, 2006, at 11:56:02
Another consideration is that not everbody who "responds" to an SSRI, is actually responding to the medication.
Like I was saying before, a lot of people get better "in spite of" SSRI's.
Depression does get better on its own. In addition, treatment (of any form) often does vastly superior to no treatment.
People always like to make associations, it makes them feel in control.
Even people who get better from depression without drugs, often associate their recovery with something (ie, God got me though), since it gives them a sence that they can prevent such things from happening again. That wasn't true for me, some of my worst points occured while on medications.
If somebody would like to believe that the SSRI was actually what caused recovery then all the power to them, but it may not be true.
Also, in terms of us all being institutionalized if we didn't have these medications, I'm not so sure what the statistics are. For instance, suicides "have not" taken any substatial decline since the advent of chemical antidepressants (contrary to popular belief). In addition you've got an increase in the number of "drug induced manic episodes", so I don't know if the meds pan out to paint a rosey picture at all.
Linkadge
Posted by flmm on June 22, 2006, at 19:56:55
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board, posted by linkadge on June 22, 2006, at 17:55:48
Clearly this is the board for chronic complainers. No drug will ever be enough so just stop already. Neurosis is overanylizing and oversensitivity of ones self. Of course these drugs can make people a little Zombie" like. This is a necessary "side effect" to stop self obsessing so much! For gods sake, do not expect the drugs to do all the work! They can only help. Do some positive things for others, you might just find out you stopped worrying about yourself for a moment. Thereby helping yourself!
Posted by Squiggles on June 22, 2006, at 19:59:54
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board, posted by flmm on June 22, 2006, at 19:56:55
> Clearly this is the board for chronic complainers. No drug will ever be enough so just stop already. Neurosis is overanylizing and oversensitivity of ones self. Of course these drugs can make people a little Zombie" like. This is a necessary "side effect" to stop self obsessing so much! For gods sake, do not expect the drugs to do all the work! They can only help. Do some positive things for others, you might just find out you stopped worrying about yourself for a moment. Thereby helping yourself!
Nah, more soup please sir? :-)
Squiggles
Posted by linkadge on June 22, 2006, at 20:51:55
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board, posted by flmm on June 22, 2006, at 19:56:55
Thats the kind of opinion that a lot of treatment resistant people must face. "Oh, just stop complaining will ya?"
I think people are full well able to tell if a treatment works or not.
Sure it is easy, if a SSRI works for you, to think that it should work for everbody else but that is not true.
There are quite possably many different biochemcal issues that can present as the same cluster of symptoms. It is easy to take a working mind for granted.
I have seen SSRI apathy ruin good peoples lives. I know people (who when non depressed) had lives, and energy, and motivation, all to have that completely wiped out by the "treatment" of SSRI's. We're not talking about feeling a little dull. SSRI's apathy can transform a neurotic depression into one where a patient sleeps all day, and is pretty much indifferent about everything.
This is not just some backstage complaint, SSRI apathy, and amotivational syndrome are real. It is basically transforming one disabling illness into a different, but equally debilitating one.
Some people seem much more sensitive to this problem than others.Proper treatment for depression, is not just about getting the patient to stop complaining.
This thread, is not about getting high, nor is it about using opiates to escape, or feel good, it is about trying to sift through the accounts and evidences, to determine if fixed doses of opiates can help certain patients get better. There seem to be an increasing number of cases which suggest that it is possable in certain patients.
I understand how some people may think that this is impossable, but I would tell certain patients to not let this discourage them.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on June 22, 2006, at 21:02:54
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » flmm, posted by linkadge on June 22, 2006, at 20:51:55
You've hit the nail on the head linkadge.
Of course people are content, perhaps even
grateful not to be in a state where they
may harm themselves or others. But the side
effects so often destroy the quality of life,
volition, ambition, appetite, ability to feel
emotions and yet remain balanced.We need better drugs and if we stop complaining
about that, those who are not victims of
mental illness, will be quite satisfied to
continue prescribing without trying to
improve psychopharmacology.Psychopharmacology is very important -
the drugs stop depression after all and
schizophrenia. The rest is fluffery.
Though, of course compassion and care
in a social context is necessary for any
human being in a state of suffering.Squiggles
Posted by flmm on June 22, 2006, at 21:55:41
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board » linkadge, posted by Squiggles on June 22, 2006, at 21:02:54
Hey, easy boys, I did not say your complaints are not valid. Just that drugs are only part of the solution. The other parts are never talked about or just brushed by here. You will never, ever find a perfect drug. NEVER. So clearly you should take the ones that help the most, dump the others, find out what else is wrong in your life. I'm sure you probably will not want to face some of those issues, probably just easier to take drugs.................
Posted by Emme on June 22, 2006, at 22:05:07
In reply to Re: SSRIs and this Board, posted by flmm on June 22, 2006, at 21:55:41
> The other parts are never talked about or just brushed by here.
1) That's because this is a meds board. There is a psychology board.
2) Please do not assume that because they are not discussed on this board that people are not simultaneously pursuing other forms of therapy.
> I'm sure you probably will not want to face some of those issues, probably just easier to take drugs.................
1) Please don't make assumptions about what other people will or will not face.
2) I may get slammed for this, but I personally believe that there are some people (not all) who do not have issues and for whom their illness is purely biological. Or for whom life issues are the result of their illness.
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