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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1029 to 1053 of 1313. Go back in thread:
Posted by worm on July 12, 2004, at 10:32:32
In reply to Re: Worm - Antidepressants and suicide, posted by lorily on July 12, 2004, at 10:15:33
Yes, different drugs have different effects on everyone. That's why these forums should be used for general advice only. Some of the things mentioned have been helpful to me, some not. The best part is just knowing you are not going through it alone. The brain zaps, the memory loss, made me feel like I was losing my mind. Then when I saw nearly everyone coming off Effexor had the same symptoms, I could somehow deal with it better.
I am so clear-headed and happy now, maybe its just because it's summertime and I have lost a few pounds (because of being off Effexor?) and feel better about myself. If I feel myself slipping, I will talk to my doctor and see if there is some chemical help for me. But for now, I am enjoying life as it comes.
Worm
Posted by alan38 on July 12, 2004, at 13:10:30
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by lorily on July 12, 2004, at 8:08:01
I am only taking the Claritin (1 tablet every other day). That aleviates all the zaps. I am diabetic so I take insulin every day. I don't think that would have anything to do with the coming off effexor but who knows???
I notice that if I take a claritin and wait a day and a half or so the zaps come back. I don't get it. Other than the zaps, I feel great. Some other posts say It could take a few months for them to get out of your system.Your thoughts...
Posted by dizzzzy on July 12, 2004, at 15:49:56
In reply to Re: Going through Effexor Withdrawl now, posted by Frisky_Cat on July 11, 2004, at 5:28:39
I am appalled that you would write like this on a message board of people going through something very significant! Different people react differently! Are you on effexor? Why are you writing on this board only to put down what someone may be saying that have or are going through. I was very happy to find this board. It help me realize that what I am feeling going off effexor (dizzy, nausea, etc.) was real and not in my head! I think that you should keep your hostile opions to yourself if you aren't going to say anything beneficial to everyone else!!!!!!!
> I have to protest the comments below. There is no hard evidence that antidepressants increase depression. The most logical explanation for the fact that sometimes people who take antidepressants commit suicide is
> 1. Coincidence
> 2. the antidepressants give them enough energy to commit suicide.
>
> I was trained as a statistician. I am smart enough to know that the fact that umbrellas and rain are correlated does not imply that umbrellas caused it to rain.
>
> Similarly, if you take a population of extremely depressed prone to suicide, you can't draw the inference that putting them on a drug caused them to commit suicide. Some of these people will commit suicide no matter what treatment they receive or not.
>
> I am stunned (as usual) by the inability of people on this board to think straight.
>
> I'll add that a good wager is that most of you will back on medication in the near future. Your conditions are chronic and the levels of neurotransmitters in your brain will deteriorate over time.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I want to thank who ever mentioned the article in SELF magazine. The only thing about the article is the fact that it doesn't mention that the FDA has put out the warning how some people can become more depressed and suicidal while taking this drug and also from withdrawal from it.
> > This article will explain a lot more to my son who is still devastated by the death of his dear wife, from this drug.
> > Please, please, listen to your docrors and if you are trying to get off this terrible drug, do it safely.
> > My thoughts and prayers with you all.
> >
>
>
Posted by Frisky_Cat on July 12, 2004, at 15:53:26
In reply to Re: Going through Effexor Withdrawl now » Frisky_Cat, posted by dizzzzy on July 12, 2004, at 15:49:56
> I am appalled that you would write like this on a message board of people going through something very significant! Different people react differently! Are you on effexor? Why are you writing on this board only to put down what someone may be saying that have or are going through. I was very happy to find this board. It help me realize that what I am feeling going off effexor (dizzy, nausea, etc.) was real and not in my head! I think that you should keep your hostile opions to yourself if you aren't going to say anything beneficial to everyone else!!!!!!!
Your comments are totally irrelevant to my comments below on the claims regarding suicidal tendencies.
And yes, tough love is sometimes better than feel good nonsense.
>
>
> > I have to protest the comments below. There is no hard evidence that antidepressants increase depression. The most logical explanation for the fact that sometimes people who take antidepressants commit suicide is
> > 1. Coincidence
> > 2. the antidepressants give them enough energy to commit suicide.
> >
> > I was trained as a statistician. I am smart enough to know that the fact that umbrellas and rain are correlated does not imply that umbrellas caused it to rain.
> >
> > Similarly, if you take a population of extremely depressed prone to suicide, you can't draw the inference that putting them on a drug caused them to commit suicide. Some of these people will commit suicide no matter what treatment they receive or not.
> >
> > I am stunned (as usual) by the inability of people on this board to think straight.
> >
> > I'll add that a good wager is that most of you will back on medication in the near future. Your conditions are chronic and the levels of neurotransmitters in your brain will deteriorate over time.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > I want to thank who ever mentioned the article in SELF magazine. The only thing about the article is the fact that it doesn't mention that the FDA has put out the warning how some people can become more depressed and suicidal while taking this drug and also from withdrawal from it.
> > > This article will explain a lot more to my son who is still devastated by the death of his dear wife, from this drug.
> > > Please, please, listen to your docrors and if you are trying to get off this terrible drug, do it safely.
> > > My thoughts and prayers with you all.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by dizzzzy on July 12, 2004, at 15:58:39
In reply to Re: Worm - Antidepressants and suicide, posted by worm on July 12, 2004, at 10:32:32
Your message encourages me! I am 2 days off completely and can't wait for the brain zaps to go away! I am taking a claritin but it isn't working that well to keep the zaps away. Although it may be lessening them?! I look forward to everyday as I get closer to feeling normal again!
Thanks.
Posted by dizzzzy on July 12, 2004, at 16:01:36
In reply to Re: Going through Effexor Withdrawl now, posted by Frisky_Cat on July 12, 2004, at 15:53:26
I am confused as to why my comments are totally irrelevant to your comments previously on the claims regarding suicidal tendencies. I think I covered exactly what I needed to say?! You seem to be a VERY hostile person and I further disagreed with you saying that "tough love is sometimes better than feel good nonsense". Sometimes people just need a friendly ear and someone who understands!
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2004, at 16:30:06
In reply to Re: Going through Effexor Withdrawl now, posted by Frisky_Cat on July 12, 2004, at 15:53:26
> Your comments are totally irrelevant...
>
> feel good nonsensePlease don't post anything that could lead others to feel put down. I already asked you to be civil, so now I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or email me, or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration after your block is over.
Sharing something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by pandareina on July 12, 2004, at 16:33:07
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by lorily on July 11, 2004, at 16:09:44
Thanks! I actually could not take it anymore and took a 75 mg pill - and within the hour i was sooo much better. I am going to decrease it slowly, very slowly - because the pain was too great to handle. I will keep you posted. I will use the capsules and take pellets out until there are none! :)
Thanks for the support!
V.
V. Based on that site I mentioned in a post "look what I found" a few days ago, half life of effexor sr 75 mg takes about 5 days to get out of your system completely. But, the things you are feeling is your brain trying to do what the effexor was doing and not being able to correctly. This I did not make up. The reason we have these feelings on effexor is due to the short half life, it sends our brain into the "do it yourself mode" right away. Zoloft etc can stay in your system for MONTHS, allowing your brain to learn how to do the work on its own, slowly. That's why they reccomend taking one of the other ADs while coming off the effexor. My suggestion is to just take a little bit to curb those feelings. I know you must want to get off it ASAP, I know I did, but I cut from 75 to 37.5 for i guess 5 weeks had bad feelings the first day, so I stayed there and you may have read my other posts and I'm doing great. I feel that taking a small dose to help your brain adjust is absolutely not a bad thing, we have to remember that we have problems we need help with and you don't want to send yourself into a relapse of the depression. Take it easy and don't push yourself to do something you may not be ready for. Feeling worse as the days go on seems like your brain needs a little help for a little bit
> Good luck
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2004, at 16:41:02
In reply to Re: Going through Effexor Withdrawl now » Frisky_Cat, posted by dizzzzy on July 12, 2004, at 16:01:36
> Why the nastiness?
>
> annesand> I think that you should keep your hostile opions to yourself...
> You seem to be a VERY hostile person
>
> dizzzzyPlease don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Even if they started it. Try to be patient and not to let them push your buttons? Two wrongs don't make a right.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by snake on July 12, 2004, at 18:00:47
In reply to Re: please be civil » annesand » dizzzzy, posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2004, at 16:41:02
just a few words of encouragement, i've beeb off of effexor for 25 days and i'm feeling better. i took bendryl for the nauesa and just suffered with the rest. on a scale of 10 being the worst time i've had a 3 today,thank God.be so glad to be normal again if i know what normal is. now i'm a little anxious it will come back. you guys just hang in there. there is life after effexor. cece
Posted by lorily on July 12, 2004, at 19:23:28
In reply to it does get better, posted by snake on July 12, 2004, at 18:00:47
Congrats! Today I did not have any effexor. Felt a little off kilter. Did have a bit of emotional topsy-turvys, but I feel these are due to menstruasion.
Posted by lorily on July 12, 2004, at 19:27:18
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by pandareina on July 12, 2004, at 16:33:07
V. I'm glad to hear you're feeling better today. If you can't find that link I mentioned, let me know, I have it on my favorites at work and will be happy to post it again. It sucks to try to do this without all the information and that was a big help to me. It also has a schedule for cutting down from i think 75 to 0 is 60 days. That's on the capsule form. Let me know if you can't find itl.
Posted by lorily on July 12, 2004, at 19:29:56
In reply to Re: Worm - Antidepressants and suicide » worm, posted by dizzzzy on July 12, 2004, at 15:58:39
Dizzzy, Congrats!!!! Today was the first day with NO EFFEXOR for me, I felt not too bad, not really zaps, just disoriented here and there. Mostly going to and coming home from work.
Posted by snake on July 13, 2004, at 8:15:03
In reply to Re: Chemist's Warm Welcome to Frisky_Cat, posted by worm on July 12, 2004, at 19:47:40
hey worm how long have you been off effexor?when do most of the systoms go away? we all need tp hear words of encouragements. thanks for yours. i want to be normal again. i'm not sure what normal will be. anyone have help on coming off wellbutin? on 200mg. twice a day.day 26 off eff.article in self magazine was good.wish i had read it sooner,like 2 years ago.
God bless all of you. thanks cece
Posted by worm on July 13, 2004, at 12:17:42
In reply to to worm- how long, posted by snake on July 13, 2004, at 8:15:03
Of course, that's the whole issue here - what is "normal"? It's different for everyone, which is why I can only speak for myself. I did the phasing-0ut thing for about a week, emptying out half the capsules. (I was on 150 XR) Then I decided to go "cold turkey", and took a leftover Prozac if the symptoms got bad. This lasted about 2 weeks, with just 1 or 2 Prozacs needed the first couple of days. I still had residual symptoms up until about 4 months, but just occasionally - Brain zaps, dizziness, tiredness, moodiness, and foggy brain. Most of these were gone in the first month, but I feel like my brain has only cleared up recently. Names of people and places I should know are coming back to me faster. I was really worried about getting Alzheimers or something, I really couldn't think of very common words. It helps to time it so you can be on vacation, so that you can sleep around the clock if you want. I did a lot of sleepiung. Also, I kept up on my vitamin regimen - multivitamin, vitamin C, E, and a calcium supplement with vitamin D. Don't know if it helps, but couldn't hurt. If you are into herbals, there are some people here with very detailed herbal regimens, that they claim help a lot.
Hope this is helpful. Good luck!
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 13, 2004, at 17:25:38
In reply to Re: blocked for week » Frisky_Cat, posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2004, at 16:30:06
> If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general ... please ... redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration
Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040527/msgs/365752.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 13, 2004, at 20:29:11
In reply to Re: Going through Effexor Withdrawl now, posted by SLS on July 11, 2004, at 7:35:21
Hey Scott. How ya doin', buddy?
> These are powerful drugs eliciting unpredictable effects on a brain that we have very little understanding of. Many drugs produce depression as a frequent side effect. Drug manufacturers are required to include this fact in the packaging of their products. It makes for a long list of very diverse drugs. Antidepressants are not teleologically exempt from producing undesirable mood alterations because they have some sort of biological "safety" that permits only antidepressant effects and precludes depressogenic effects.
Anybody who can work "teleologically" into a sentence, with skill, has my support.
> For any given individual, there may be certain antidepressants (or any other type of drug) that will exacerbate the clinical depression and induce suicidal states. Prozac has, and will continue to cause suicides as long as prescribing physicians continue to think like you do.
There are particular windows of vulnerability to suicide, which require more effective medical management. Suicidal induction is not novel with respect to SSRI antidepressants. It is a well-known phenomenon since the introduction of the tricyclics. One of the driving forces in the development of the SSRIs was to provide an antidepressant which itself was not generally fatal in overdose, as the tricyclics are.
I've been studying the literature, and plan to write a review article on the subject of antidepressants and suicide. Overall, suicide rates are declining, while SSRI prescription rates are increasing. There are two distinct effects, but the summary statistic is that suicides are reduced by SSRIs, notwithstanding temporary increases in susceptibility.
> > The most logical explanation for the fact that sometimes people who take antidepressants commit suicide is
> > 1. Coincidence
> > 2. the antidepressants give them enough energy to commit suicide.
>
> Both of these explanations are absolutely valid. However, I would appeal to you that you leave open your mind to the possibilities of a third, especially if you are in a position to influence the medical treatment of anyone suffering from depression.
>
> By the way, statistics do demonstrate that antidepressants cause suicide.I'm not convinced. Most of the data were collected for purposes other than that to which they have been put. Clinical trial data are not generalizable to the population at large, in my opinion. When you look at the epidemiological data, the government records of suicide, compared to prescription rates, and examination of post mortem toxicology, there is no obvious SSRI-suicide signal. Short-term clinical studies may happen to coincide with one risk window.
> It is statistics that are fueling the whole uproar regarding the use of SSRIs in pediatrics. I am sure that the statistics are there for adults too. We just need an expert like you to look for them once the trial data becomes public.
I'm not an expert statistician, but I am trained in methodology. I reviewed the pediatric paroxetine study, the full clinical dataset (over 500 pages).....the one where paroxetine was said to have a six-fold greater suicide risk than placebo....that conclusion is misleading, and is unsupported by the data.
It is a statistical fluke, combined with stringent adherence to protocols, which produced that disturbing statistic. For example, "emotional lability" is the category these events were collected under. Only four of the six incidents of emotional lability in the paroxetine group were "severe", and fully documented. One "severe" paroxetine case is due to one subject taking one or two extra tablets per week (b.i.d. dosing), over two consecutive weeks. Instead of taking fourteen tablets, she lost count and took fifteen or sixteen (out of 20 provided at a time), three weeks in a row. By protocol definition, and only because it was two (or more) consecutive weeks, that was a priori a case of severe emotional lability. The only true suicidal act occurred in the placebo group. They're comparing apples to oranges. Here's a link to a summary of my analysis:
I copied the actual case reports of the severe emotional lability incidents from the study appendices. Here's a link:
http://www.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=zWEAc.39179%24nY.1241628%40news20.bellglobal.com&rnum=23Paxil is being framed, in my opinion.
> On a more anecdotal note: The following drugs made my depression moderately - severely worse. Reboxetine and moclobemide in particular induced a suicidal state.
>
> amoxapine
> bupropion
> donepezil
> idazoxan
> mirtazapine
> moclobemide
> protriptyline
> reboxetine
> triiodothyronine
> valproate
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
> - ScottI'm sorry you've had such a struggle with meds. Lithium made me suicidal, as did Serzone.
Lar
Posted by KaraS on July 13, 2004, at 20:46:32
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal side effects, posted by lorily on July 10, 2004, at 21:28:48
Lorily,
I cut back to half a pill last night and not a single problem yet. Yeah!!
- K
Posted by itsrick on July 13, 2004, at 22:06:31
In reply to Re: to worm- how long, posted by worm on July 13, 2004, at 12:17:42
> Of course, that's the whole issue here - what is "normal"? It's different for everyone, which is why I can only speak for myself. I did the phasing-0ut thing for about a week, emptying out half the capsules. (I was on 150 XR) Then I decided to go "cold turkey", and took a leftover Prozac if the symptoms got bad. This lasted about 2 weeks, with just 1 or 2 Prozacs needed the first couple of days. I still had residual symptoms up until about 4 months, but just occasionally - Brain zaps, dizziness, tiredness, moodiness, and foggy brain. Most of these were gone in the first month, but I feel like my brain has only cleared up recently. Names of people and places I should know are coming back to me faster. I was really worried about getting Alzheimers or something, I really couldn't think of very common words. It helps to time it so you can be on vacation, so that you can sleep around the clock if you want. I did a lot of sleepiung. Also, I kept up on my vitamin regimen - multivitamin, vitamin C, E, and a calcium supplement with vitamin D. Don't know if it helps, but couldn't hurt. If you are into herbals, there are some people here with very detailed herbal regimens, that they claim help a lot.
>
> Hope this is helpful. Good luck!
>
>
>how about claritan? i heard that helps with the symptoms?
Posted by SLS on July 14, 2004, at 7:06:34
In reply to Re: Going through Effexor Withdrawl now » SLS, posted by Larry Hoover on July 13, 2004, at 20:29:11
Hi Larry.
> Hey Scott. How ya doin', buddy?
Crappy. :-) Thanks for asking. I think I'll stop by the Alternative board more often to pay visits.
> Anybody who can work "teleologically" into a sentence, with skill, has my support.
I've been keeping that one in my back pocket for a special occasion.
> I've been studying the literature, and plan to write a review article on the subject of antidepressants and suicide.
I look forward to reading it (as much as my depression will allow). Where will you be submitting it?
> Overall, suicide rates are declining, while SSRI prescription rates are increasing. There are two distinct effects, but the summary statistic is that suicides are reduced by SSRIs, notwithstanding temporary increases in susceptibility.
I know. Even if antidepressants do exacerbate depression in vulnerable individuals, the net effect of their use in the general population is, thankfully, a reduction in the rate of suicide. However, beyond the bottom line of the *interpretation* of statistics is the fact that these drugs do lead to the commission of suicide in certain individuals who would not have done so were they not to have been treated with a provocative medication. Everyone *must* recognize the fact that there exists such a thing as IATROGENIC SUICIDE. Hopefully, this can be accomplished without using any one drug unjustifiably as a scapegoat.
This would be an interesting use of statistics: Treat 500 people with Prozac and 500 people with placebo. In the active treatment arm, take the number n of non-responders as a group and determine the rate of treatment-emergent suicidal-ideation. Now, take the same number n of randomly chosen non-responders to placebo and compare the rates.
I am very glad to see that you have chosen to come back. I only wish that I could read the volume of the posts you write.
- Scott
Posted by LynnPerley on July 14, 2004, at 7:23:03
In reply to Re: it does get better, posted by lorily on July 12, 2004, at 19:23:28
Today is day #2 without Effexor XR for me. I previously posted that I came down from 300mg gradually. I went down an increment (37.5.mg) at a time for a week each except I remained at 150 mg for a month and at 75 mg for a month. When I was at 75 mg and wanted to go further my psydoc said there was no sense remaining on 37.5 mg (for me). She gave me the 1 week sample strip of 37.5 mg and I took it last week.
The only really bad time I had was from 75mg to 37.5 mg - I had some annoying diarrhea for a few days and some headaches and brain zaps. Yesterday I was a lot more irritable than I had been, but I don't think it was any more irritable than a "normal" non medication state. I am using the techniques I learned from my counselor to deal with the irritability.
I mentioned before that I have some ritalin tablets from when I was on the 300mg dose. My psydoc confirmed to me over the phone that the ritalin dosage may be helping reduce any other potential discontinuation side effects. I am taking one or two 5mg ritalin tablets every morning at the smae time I used to take my effexor xr. If I am feeling a little queasy or if I feel a few weird brain feelings I take an additional dose about 5 hours later. I was unable to take prozac because I had unbearable bruxism, so taking a prozac to relieve side effects is not available to me.
Posted by KimberlyDi on July 14, 2004, at 7:45:21
In reply to Re: it does get better, posted by LynnPerley on July 14, 2004, at 7:23:03
Psycho-Babble was my lifeline going through Effexor withdrawal. Even when I was finally off Effexor, I still had the weird dizziness to deal with when I turned my head too quickly. Now, I don't have them at all. Ordeal over.
I just wanted to add that I had the best success tapering off with a planned schedule of varying dosage changes. I posted it several times months ago if anyone wants to try it. 2 steps forward, 1 step back. :)
Good Luck!
KDi in TX
Posted by lorily on July 14, 2004, at 9:53:38
In reply to It does get better-I'm living proof, posted by KimberlyDi on July 14, 2004, at 7:45:21
Kimberly,
Please do let me know how long that head turning syndrome lasted for you. I've cut down my effexor nice and slowly, yesterday and the day before I had none, but today I did feel too uncomfortable with that head thing and a headache during this time. So, I just took a VERY small amount, maybe 6 granules from the capsule this morning. I have that lightheaded feeling now, so, I guess it's a side effect from taking it, not not taking it :)
What do you mean 2 steps forward and one back?
I would love to get over this but am trying to be patient and avoid pain and don't want to push my brain too much.
Posted by lorily on July 14, 2004, at 10:04:28
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal side effects, posted by KaraS on July 13, 2004, at 20:46:32
Kara, good for you! yest and the day before I had none, but this morning I was too uncomfortable with the feeling of dizziness when turning my head, and I felt very emotional and have been having a headache. I took about 6 granules and have added light-headedness to my repritoir (SP?)
Posted by justjustine on July 14, 2004, at 10:38:20
In reply to Re: it does get better, posted by LynnPerley on July 14, 2004, at 7:23:03
it got a lot worse for me before it got better, for about a month i was sick. but i researched, and from what i read it seemed likely that a slower taper would have mostly kept me sick longer, although not so violently ill as i was for that long month.
unfortunately, i feel that i have been permanently changed by this drug. i'm acting out in ways i never did before. it's more like borderline symptoms than just 'depression' or 'anxiety' or even 'ptsd'.
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