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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 36. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tabitha on November 3, 2002, at 16:11:08
Hi there, I'm sick to death of my dry frizzy hair that falls out all the time, and my poor digestion and tummy bloat, and my fluid retention, all of which I believe are med side effects, because I never used to have these problems. Lots of web surfing gave me the idea than increasing protein, zinc, and EFAs in my diet might help. In the past though, supplements and vitamins never seem to make a difference and I end up throwing them away.
What I wonder is, personal beliefs aside, has anyone experienced any real before-and-after difference in side effects with changing their nutrition or adding supplements?
Posted by linkadge on November 3, 2002, at 17:54:14
In reply to Does nutrition help side effects?, posted by Tabitha on November 3, 2002, at 16:11:08
To answer your question, no and yes.
While proper nutritional has not noticably
improved side effects, it EFAs' folic acid
and others have effectivly allowed me to reduce
the need for certain medications. In other words
some suplements can dramatically imrpove the
effect of a drug you take, menaing you may need
less of it = less side effects,What drugs do you take ?
Linkadge
Posted by Gracie2 on November 3, 2002, at 19:16:22
In reply to Re: Does nutrition help side effects?, posted by linkadge on November 3, 2002, at 17:54:14
Most of the multi-vitamins available in grocery and drug stores contain so little of each vitamin recommended by homeopathic experts, they will have no effect (according to these experts). From your symptoms, whatever their cause might be, you could probably benefit from an extensive regimen of vitamins and minerals.
I recommend that you read "Dr. Whitaker's Guide to Natural Healing" by Julian Whitaker, M.D.
He recommends different supplements and herbs for specific conditions, aside from a daily regimen for optimal health. Unfortunately all these vitamins and herbs aren't particularly cheap, so make sure to take them long enough for any benefits to become obvious - at least for a few months.
In the meantime, get a box of those Metamucil cookies and eat a couple every morning with your coffee or juice. They taste okay and they're loaded with fiber, which helps clean you out. This is a little unpleasant at first, but your digestion will improve and you'll feel better without all that poisonous crap hanging around in your colon.
-Gracie
Posted by Mr Beev on November 4, 2002, at 8:41:05
In reply to Re: Does nutrition help side effects?, posted by Gracie2 on November 3, 2002, at 19:16:22
I by no means wish to be a wet blanket, and I applaud all obliging colons, but one may want to peruse this link, obtained from the Quackwatch site:
http://www.acsh.org/publications/priorities/1104/jw.html
Mr Beev
Posted by Tabitha on November 4, 2002, at 14:28:03
In reply to Does nutrition help side effects?, posted by Tabitha on November 3, 2002, at 16:11:08
There are plenty of convincing books and websites about supplements and nutrition, and plenty of equally convincing debunking sites.
What I was wondering, though, is whether anybody has really noticed a difference from, say, adding supplements, or changing their diet.
Posted by BeardedLady on November 4, 2002, at 14:45:30
In reply to Re: thanks, but... any personal experiences?, posted by Tabitha on November 4, 2002, at 14:28:03
Before I took the mega B complex, I was sluggish in spirit and metabolism. I also stopped eating bread and pasta (though I'm off the wagon right now and feeling crappy), making my diet primarily fruits, veggies, and protein. I lost lots of weight and felt more cheerful and energetic.
I also have fewer headaches because of the B.
beardy
Posted by BeardedLady on November 4, 2002, at 14:46:36
In reply to Re: thanks, but... any personal experiences?, posted by Tabitha on November 4, 2002, at 14:28:03
Those counteracted the side effects of Serzone, which makes me sluggish and hungry and slows my metabolism.
beardy
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2002, at 15:23:11
In reply to Re: thanks, but... any personal experiences?, posted by Tabitha on November 4, 2002, at 14:28:03
Nutritional approaches tend to be subtle in effect, so its pretty hard to see the cause and effect relationship. That said, I have no doubt (literally) that eating a zone-type diet has really helped me with regards to energy, and taking essential oils and phospholipids has definitely helped stabilize my mood. B-vitamins and minerals have helped my cognition, and the combination of all of these has seemed to help my sometimes fragmented recall.
Sometimes I fall off the nutritional wagon, and I can really feel the lethargy and mood decline coming over me. Getting back into supplement mode brings the energy and brain function back on track. It's no cure, but it helps me. No doubt.
Lar
Posted by Tabitha on November 5, 2002, at 0:51:57
In reply to P.S. » Tabitha, posted by BeardedLady on November 4, 2002, at 14:46:36
How much do you take? What time of day do you take it?
Posted by IsoM on November 5, 2002, at 5:58:54
In reply to Re: Details, please... » BeardedLady, posted by Tabitha on November 5, 2002, at 0:51:57
Tabitha, B vitamins are water-soluble. Taking a larger amount once a day, especially on an empty stomach, will mean that most of what's taken is washed out, wasted, in your urine. Why waste your vitamins by flushing them down the toilet?
The B complex is found mainly in grains, seeds, meats (especially liver), & milk, so taking them with food makes far more sense - they're better absorbed. You also benefit from them better if you have smaller amounts taken with each meal than a large amount once a day. Your body tissues reaches a satutation level quickly with the rest wasted - another good reason to take smaller amounts with food.
I know that the B complex is often sold in formulations like B50 or similar & if you read the list of vitamins in it, you'll see something like:
thiamin (B1) 50 mg
riboflavin (B2) 50 mg
pyridoxine (B6) 50 mg
niacin (B3) 50 mg
B12 50 mcg
pantothenic acid (or calcium d-pantothenate) 50 mg
biotin 50 mcg
etc,etc.I try to explain so people will understand better that this formulation is like trying to make a cake with 1 cup of flour, 1 cup of sugar, 1 cup of butter, 1 cup of milk, 1 cup of eggs, 1 tbsp of salt, 1 tbsp of baking powder, 1 tbsp of spices, etc. It would be a pretty terrible recipe. It's the same with the B complex. Your body needs different amounts of the B vitamins. (if you don't believe this, look at the big difference in what the RDA of these are:
http://www.daily-vitamins.com/rda.htmlTherefore, if you're going to buy a B complex supplement to take, you're far better off buying what's called a "stress formulation". But do check the amounts given. Many are no different than these B50 or B100 formulas. The levels of B1, 2, & 6 should be much lower than niacin & most will have between 300-500 mg vitamin C too as a stress factor. This kind is a far more realistic balance than all the same amount. And to make use of B6, your body needs to have an adequate amount of magnesium too.
And you don't even need to take a whole tablet with each meal - most will be wasted. Better to break it into 2 or 3 pieces & take one piece with each meal. B vitamins taken on an empty stomach can cause nausea & stomach pain.
You might want to read what I wrote John at:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20021022/msgs/31977.html
Posted by BeardedLady on November 5, 2002, at 7:15:29
In reply to Re: Details, please... » BeardedLady, posted by Tabitha on November 5, 2002, at 0:51:57
Iso knows a lot, but sometimes that information is hard for dummies like me to understand.
I take Nature Made Super B-Complex with vitamin C and Folic Acid. I also take One a Day for women at the same time. I take them in the morning with breakfast, usually a veggie sausage patty with an egg or piece of melted cheese--more protein than carbs--and maybe a piece of high fiber bread, if I'm feeling the need.
I also drink a ton of water throughout the day.
I find that B works best for me in the morning, as it energizes me throughout the day. (Some Bs shouldn't be taken late in the day if you have sleep problems, or so I've read.)
You needn't worry about taking this on a full stomach, but it shouldn't be empty. It needs to latch on to something. And I believe it's okay to take it with food--while you're eating--meaning you don't have to wait until your food is digested. That's what I do, anyway.
It's a pretty easy thing to add to the routine.
beardy
Posted by Kari on November 5, 2002, at 13:12:01
In reply to Re: thanks, but... any personal experiences?, posted by Tabitha on November 4, 2002, at 14:28:03
Calcium and magnesium has made a real difference in some of my symptoms. It helps stabilize my mood and has a calming effect.
Posted by Kari on November 5, 2002, at 13:21:19
In reply to Does nutrition help side effects?, posted by Tabitha on November 3, 2002, at 16:11:08
It is claimed that any excess in B intake results in the vitamins being flushed out. If this is true, why is B6 known to cause neurological damage in excess?
Another strange thing- I once took niacin (25 or 50 mg-I forgot) for two days and ended up practically knocked out with clouded consciousness and unable to feel my arms and legs. Has anyone experienced anything similar?
Posted by BeardedLady on November 5, 2002, at 13:34:42
In reply to B vitamins, posted by Kari on November 5, 2002, at 13:21:19
A friend of mine had the same problem with niacin. I have Cal-Max from last March, something I bought off Ebay from an infomercial. It's a calcium/magnesium preparation that you're supposed to take before bedtime to help you sleep. I haven't tried it yet!
beardy
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 5, 2002, at 13:44:59
In reply to B vitamins, posted by Kari on November 5, 2002, at 13:21:19
> It is claimed that any excess in B intake results in the vitamins being flushed out. If this is true, why is B6 known to cause neurological damage in excess?
Yes, you'll excrete the excess in your urine, but first the vitamins are in your blood. Your body can be thought of as various compartments. There are membranes separating the compartments, and on each side of the membrane, there are different concentrations of all kinds of different chemicals. Taking B vitamins results in a transient increase in blood concentrations, which permits the various compartments to take up some of them before the kidneys have a chance to waste it all.
There are a number of theories to explain the apparent neurotoxicity of excess B6, but the most compelling is that taking B6, or any of the Bs, in huge doses can cause deficiency in other of the B vitamins. B6 overdose depletes B12, and neurological sequelae are the major sign of B12 deficiency. I've checked medline, and the only reports of B6 neurotoxicity involved taking grams per day for years. There is a myth about B6 toxicity, and it stems from misreporting of this factoid. If you research this issue, I bet you that you'll only find secondary or tertiary references. In other words, the sort like "So-and-so says that...."
> Another strange thing- I once took niacin (25 or 50 mg-I forgot) for two days and ended up practically knocked out with clouded consciousness and unable to feel my arms and legs. Has anyone experienced anything similar?
It depends on the form of the niacin, but nicotinic acid causes vasodilation, and resulting loss of blood pressure. Was the effect transient?
You can avoid it altogether with niacinamide, or inositol nicotinate.B vitamins should always be taken in combination. That's why B-complex formulations exist, and Stress-vitamins all have B-complex in them.
Yes, you'll excrete a lot of it. But, during the time it's coursing through your veins and arteries, your various organs and tissues have a chance to take it up. Once it's gone, they don't get another chance, until you ingest some more.
Lar
Posted by cab on November 5, 2002, at 14:11:51
In reply to B vitamins, posted by Kari on November 5, 2002, at 13:21:19
That's weird -- I take 2000 mg niacin daily (for cholesterol) and my mom takes 5000 mg daily. We take it with low-dose aspirin to control the flushing, and we haven't had any problems with it.
> Another strange thing- I once took niacin (25 or 50 mg-I forgot) for two days and ended up practically knocked out with clouded consciousness and unable to feel my arms and legs. Has anyone experienced anything similar?
Posted by Kara Lynne on November 5, 2002, at 16:05:46
In reply to Does nutrition help side effects?, posted by Tabitha on November 3, 2002, at 16:11:08
At one point a liquid amino acid formula really helped my energy and mood. Unfortunately I can no longer find it, but I am looking into finding a good amino acid supplement. I think they really help. Of course you have to be careful, and if you're on MAO'Is I don't think you can take anything with (not Tyrosine, but one of those) in it. Sorry I can't be more specific.
Posted by IsoM on November 5, 2002, at 16:16:35
In reply to B vitamins, posted by Kari on November 5, 2002, at 13:21:19
Larry gave an excellent, factual answer to your question. It shows another reason not to take *huge* amounts of B vitamins & to take them in decent balanced amounts.
And like he said, niacin (another name for it is nicotinic acid - it's structurally similar to nicotine, but very different in its actions!) that causes this flushing & weird sensation, but in the form of niacinamide, it doesn't. Whether you take niacin or niacinamide, your body will use it the same ultimately, but in the form of niacin, it also serves to lower cholesterol levels.
It's also known that vitamin A & D both can cause toxic changes if too much is taken as it's fat soluble & excess is stored in the liver. But there again, a person really needs to take large amounts for a period of time before problems arise. But in babies & small children, it takes far less, so nutritionalists & doctors would rather err on the side of caution.
**Beardy** - I've read but can't confirm that the reason B vitamins taken first thing in the morning "energizes" a person is because some of the B vitamins are used in cellular respiration ('burning sugar for energy' is the common term). But if too much of certain B vitamins is taken, it will lead to screwing up blood sugar levels. This, in turn, can lead to the opposite effect hoped for with time - less energy & a draggy, tired feeling. Now I can't verify this for certain so I'm just mentioning it, but I have heard often enough that many people after taking large amounts of B vitamins over a period of time experience fatigue & lack of energy. I'm still trying to track down how factual the reasoning behind this is.
Posted by rayww on November 5, 2002, at 19:16:30
In reply to Does nutrition help side effects?, posted by Tabitha on November 3, 2002, at 16:11:08
For my whole life my nails have been soft. The last few they have become worse, peeling and breaking as they grow. I decided if I ever find a nutritional supplement that causes improvement in my nails, I will take note and know I have discovered what I am deficient in. I have been taking EMPower (truehope) for just over two months. For the first time in my life my nails feel hard. They are beginning to show some growth. My nails are the least of importance, but something tangible I can recognize. The other benefits feel so normal that it's hard to identify them, like, I don't "need" email and expression as much as before, and I don't get that "sick" feeling that drives me to follow patterns that I used to think were addictions.
Posted by BeardedLady on November 5, 2002, at 19:24:43
In reply to Re: B vitamins and Larry's Answer -also for Beardy » Kari, posted by IsoM on November 5, 2002, at 16:16:35
Can't prove it, but I don't think this is true. And if it is, I'm hardly taking "large amounts" of B. But why would switching times make a difference, especially when food is being consumed?
beardy
Posted by IsoM on November 5, 2002, at 20:22:25
In reply to sugar for energy » IsoM, posted by BeardedLady on November 5, 2002, at 19:24:43
> > "Can't prove it, but I don't think this is true. And if it is, I'm hardly taking "large amounts" of B. But why would switching times make a difference, especially when food is being consumed?"
Exactly what I mean. I'm not sure it's a very plausible reason for the slump in energy levels that *some* notice after taking large amounts for a year or so. There's probably lots of other things that come into play here. Besides, you take yours with food & don't take huge amounts. They may be talking about those who take it on an empty stomach only.
If someone takes B complex as 50 or 100 mg of each of the vitamins, it'll mean that some, like niacin will be too low compared to others like B1 & B2. This is why I like getting mine from foods like yeast flakes & wheat germ plus some other foods. Because of my high need for B complex, I can feel a difference when I get it from foods. Some of the beginning deficiency symptoms can show with me taking supplements only but not with foods. I have no idea why I have a high need for the B complex, but unless I make sure I get extra, I show deficiency signs in a couple of days. Maybe it's something about my own particular metabolism or absorption.
Posted by bluedog on November 6, 2002, at 3:57:28
In reply to B vitamins, posted by Kari on November 5, 2002, at 13:21:19
Just a quick point.
If your worried that taking a B-complex results in expensive urine, the way to reduce this is to purchase your B-complex (and your Multivitamin complex for that matter) in slow release tablets.
Some brands offer the slow release form and the nutrients are released over an 8 hour period meaning that your body is not immediately flooded with the nutrients.
When I changed to slow release tablets, I knew they were working because I no longer had bright fluorescent urine shortly after taking my tablets
(this fluorescent yellow urine is apparently caused by excess B2 or riboflavin as the body can only handle about 25mg maximum at once and the excess is immediately excreted through the urine)The other advantage of the slow release tablets is that your body has access to the full B-complex over a longer period of time.
Posted by Alara on November 6, 2002, at 6:11:17
In reply to Re: B vitamins, posted by bluedog on November 6, 2002, at 3:57:28
> Just a quick point.
>
> If your worried that taking a B-complex results in expensive urine, the way to reduce this is to purchase your B-complex (and your Multivitamin complex for that matter) in slow release tablets.
>
>
Does yellow urine indicate that your B-complex results in `expensive urine'? Does this place more stress on the kidneys??
Posted by BeardedLady on November 6, 2002, at 6:29:20
In reply to Re: B vitamins, posted by Alara on November 6, 2002, at 6:11:17
By "expensive urine," I think he meant that the money you spent for your vitamin complex is being flushed down the toilet, literally!
beardy
Posted by BeardedLady on November 6, 2002, at 6:30:16
In reply to Re: B vitamins, posted by bluedog on November 6, 2002, at 3:57:28
Great idea. Can you tell me what brand you take? It'll help when I look among the plethora of vitamins at my supermarket.
beardy
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