![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 42 to 66 of 74. Go back in thread:
Posted by cole on June 1, 2001, at 21:14:04
In reply to Re: Deb not rying to prove anything, posted by gilbert on June 1, 2001, at 10:39:05
Deb,
I haven't been around much recently, but since I had asked you to keep us updated a while ago I wanted to thank you for posting your experiences. I know it must be tough with people debating your treatment choice. I honestly believe that we all need to do what makes each one of us well, and no one treatment is going to help everyone. I think that there is validity in using supplementation, especially with the crap most people eat these days :) I've had very effective natural treatments from a naturopath for problems ranging from infections and reflux disease, but these therapies don't have the reams of paper in support because there aren't drug companies to back the research. Luckily places like Bastyr University (a naturopathic medical school) and the University of Washington are teaming up to do randomized studies on many of the tried and true natural medical treatments.
When I discussed the role of supplementation and natural therapies in mental health with my pdoc, she seemed really supportive. She has her PhD in neuroscience and is an MD, and she admitted "the naturopaths have so much knowledge that we never get in traditional medical training". She feels that proper nutrients play a role because we need them to synthesize the proteins in our bodies, and if we aren't utilizing the nutrients correctly it makes perfect sense that illness would result. Of course this doesn't mean that supplementation would be the answer, but it could definitely play a role.
Anyhoo, I'm glad this stuff is working out for you. Stick with it if you're feeling better.
cole
Posted by Truth is hard to find on June 1, 2001, at 22:59:29
In reply to Re: Deb not rying to prove anything, posted by cole on June 1, 2001, at 21:14:04
It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that there is any "resarch study" being done at Harvard University regarding the vitamin/mineral supplement being promoted by the Synergy Group of Canada (website "Truehope").
The supplement is marketed by them as "EM Power+"I state this because:
I attended a formal presentation by "The Synergy Group of Canada" (I shall refer to them as "Truehope")
on May 9, 2001 (as I stated in a note yesterday).
The "Truehope" speakers were Mr. Anthony Stephan and Mr. David Hardy (the company founders).
This presentation was at the McLean Hospital, a Harvard Medical School teaching & research hospital.Also speaking was Dr. Andrew Stoll, Director of the Psychopharmacology Research Laboratory of McLean Hospital.
NO ONE mentioned or claimed that there had been, or is curently, ANY research being done or planned at Harvard on these supplements or the equivalent.
Dr. Andrew Stoll would almost certainly be aware if a study were underway at Harvard.
The Truehope representatives would certainly have mentioned such a study as part of their self-promotion.Dr. Stoll express interest in creating such a study.
HOWERVER, he stated that approval to conduct such a study may be denied for several reasons:
1. The Truehope daily dosage of 4 of the minerals are above what he noted to be the "Upper Limit of Safety"
Most significan is Magnesium, where their dosage is about 3 times what he noted as the "Upper Limit".
The others were Zinc (200% of UL), Selenium (200% of UL), and Copper (120% of UL).
2. He also expressed concern about his hospital approving a study requiring patients to stop their medication.Note: the context of this presentation was a meeting of the Boston chapter of the Manic Depressive and Depressive Association.
It was not sponsored or supported by the Harvard Medical School.
The nature of the presentation by "Truehope" was "promotional".
Of the audience (about 200 persons) some expressed HOPE for relief from their suffereing, but many expressed great dissatisfaction with the presentation.Dr. Stoll did not recommend or support use of the Truehope formula,
and among the problems he noted with the information presented by Truehope were:
a. Placebo effect not accounted for / desire of the participant to want the supplement to work
b. Lack of systematic diagnosis of persons taking the supplements
c. "Drop outs" were not counted
d. Lack of "double blind" nature of reporting of results
e. Questionable safety of long term use of the supplements
f. Expense of the supplements.
g. Reported gastointestinal side effects.I should note that Dr. Stoll did not dismiss the POSSIBILITY of the supplements having an effect
on manic-depression (the focus of his interest), but the basic "scientific summary" of the
presentation was "it will be great if it works, but we have no credible data, only SELECTED
testimonials, to support that conclusion".
Posted by Truth is hard to find on June 2, 2001, at 0:02:42
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE profits, posted by Deb_s on June 1, 2001, at 9:46:45
I have spent a little time evaluating what appeared to me to be a rather hight cost for E.M.POWER+
as quoted by the Synergy Group of Canada for their supplement: basically US $150.00/month.The results I what I find: purchasing the equivalent would probably cost your abour $40.00/month
The E.M.POWER+ Ingredient List contains (1) Vitamins (2) Minerals (3) "Proprietary Blend"
(1) The Vitamin daily dosage (32 pills), when compared to a widely available commercial product (Theragran-M, by Bristol-Myers) works out to almost exactly 4 times the amount in each of the "Theragran" tablets.
(2) The Mineral daily dosages are mostly substantially higher than the "Theragran" product (including Theragran's "Vitamin/Mineral" supplement)
(3) The non-mineral "proprietary blend" (Ginko, Grape Seed, etc.) dosages are not stated on their web site, but I have been told by a research pharmacologist who has seen the data that the dosage level is so low as to be "negligible". I would state this Dr.'s name, but I have not asked his permission to quote this.
Cost evaluation:
(1) The equivalent vitamins purchased as "Theragran" would cost approximately $6.00 to $8.00/month.
This is computed: (30 days * 4 capsules * $.06/capsule)(2) The minerals, as priced from Web sources, would cost approx $20.00 month
This is based on sample prices for "Mega Multi Mineral formula" from Solaray.
This is computed: (30 days * 8 capsules * $.08/capsule)
Please note that the following minerals in both "Truehope" and "Solaray's" products include the AMINO ACID CHELATED form of the mineral: Calcium, Iron, Manganese, Chromium, Molybdenum, Boron, Vanadiuim, and Nickel.
As chelated forms of the minerals, they appear to be more expensive than those minerals found in "standard" vitamin/mineral supplements.(3) As the information I have been given about the Ginko, etc. is that the dosage levels are very low, I can only state that the cost must also be pretty low....
So, the "equivalent" cost"
..Theragran vitamins (or equiv).........$ 8.00
..Minerals (chelelated)......................$20.00
..Ginko, extra Vit B12/C etc.(estimate!)$12.00
Estimated Probable total............ $40.00/monthPills per day
....The Truehope formula requires 32 capsules/day
....An "equivalent" works out to about 20 or so pills/day
........(4 regular vitamin pills)
........(8 mineral pills)
........(4 "extra" vitamin pills: C,B12, etc.)
........("x" "herbal supplement pills)
When I confronted a "Truehope" representative about the comparatively hight cost of their product, they advised me that their's had a very high "bio-availabilty" rating. However, no one has been able to give me any evidence of either direct or comparative measurement of that!NOTE: I AM NOT RECOMMENDING TAKING THIS MUCH "STUFF". PARTICULARYLY SOME MINERAL DOSES IN HIGH LEVELS HAVE BEEN REPORTED TO CAUSE PROBLEMS, AS WELL AS VITAMIN A IN DOSES THIS HIGH
FURTHERMORE, IF ONE'S LIVER OR KIDNEY FUNCTION IS IMPARIED, HIGH DOSES MAY (I UNDERSTAND) CAUSE PROBLEMS.NOR AM I RECOMMENDING ANY BRAND OF VITAMIN OR MINERAL SUPPLIER! THOSE NAMES PROVIDED ARE FOR REFERENCE ONLY, SHOULD YOU CARE TO VALIDATE MY INFORMATION.
Posted by Ron Hill on June 2, 2001, at 9:19:34
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE, posted by Deb_s on May 31, 2001, at 9:39:45
Deb,
I personally appreciate your posts regarding your experience with the pig pills. It's antidotal, but worthwhile none-the-less. Please continue to keep us abreast of your continued successes and/or setbacks.
-- Ron
--------------------------------------------
> I'm with you 100% !!!
>
> First of all, saying it's a "vitamin pill, available at WalMart" shows an extremely closed mind on the subject. There is a great deal more to it than that.
>
> Two, I have heard that Harvard is conducting a study, and have not been able to "confirm" it, although presumably it will be published when it is completed. I surfed a bit at Harvard's research site and it seems like they're conducting about a gazillion studies, so I reached no conclusions.
>
> The statement by Sulpicia, "I can guarantee you that Truehope stuff is not being tested at Harvard." What's with that????
>
> I have been treated for depression for about forever, and with meds the past 8 years or so. Indeed, for short periods of time, the antidepressants helped enormously. Then not so much. It's been a hell of a roller coaster. Then I hit menopause (I'm 51), so the doctors added in Synthroid (my family doctor said it wasn't necessary, but my shrink said it was a good idea, so just in case ... ), and PremPro (seemed like a good idea at the time; was rather a coin-toss decision).
>
> By January 2001, I was taking:
>
> Wellbutrin 450mg/day
> Prozac 140mg/day
> PremPro 0.625mg /2.5mg 1/day
> Synthroid 0.025mg/day
>
> And just barely getting by. I didn't know who I was anymore. No energy, very little short-term memory, and ziltch confidence about the future. Etc. (you all can fill in the blanks). Since the meds weren't working, the next step was going to be ECT.
>
> I told my shrink I was going to try the "pig pill" program. She gave me all sorts of caveats, but distinctly missing was ANY looking, whatsoever, at the facts about the program itself. Assuming, since it seemed too good to be true, that it was, she put on her automatic allopathic physician hat and essentially gave me the message that I
> had no ability to make decisions about myself. I haven't been back to her since (I can't afford it, for one thing, because my health insurance won't pay for "outpatient" mental health visits).
>
> I posted some of this on:
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010302/msgs/55836.html
>
> I started taking E.M. Power, a multi-vitamin and mineral supplement, on February 4th, and weaned off my medications week-by-week. I did not have any of the dramatic withdrawal symptoms I had had on other occasions. I started napping less, remembering more, and finding pleasure in life again.
>
> I've been gradually improving. I hit a rocky spot these last few weeks when I decided to eliminate the hormones and thyroid medication.
> I now hot flash about every 3 minutes (seems like, anyway) and feel pretty logy (that's midwestern for sluggish). I still don't nap during the day anymore (for at least 3 years, I couldn't get through the day without a long nap).
> I'm functioning very well in contrast to six months ago. I'm more emotional, but it's under control. I don't feel so helpless, although
> I admit it's still scary.
>
> Yes, my case is anecdotal. I'm not advocating the "pig pills" one way or the other. I'm doing much better, and am glad I took this leap of faith. Should I not speak up, because there is not a published, double-blind study out there? How many permutations of individuals, chemicals, drugs, vitamins, minerals, and combinations thereof are there in the world? How long would it take to do a double-blind study of all those permutations? We would have to wait for someone to "think of" a possible solution, then test that particular solution, then try again ...
>
> I am not going to live that long. I admire and appreciate the wonder of antidepressants and other medications, but I do not trust the drug companies.
>
> I started on "pig pills" for two simple reasons:
>
> 1. I felt I had run out of other options, and had nothing to lose.
>
> 2. My husband was a pig farmer, and he knows what an enormous effect chemicals can have on living organisms.
>
> The theory behind the "pig pills" is that the brain needs certain ingredients to do what it has to do, that some people need more of some than others, and that our diet is not providing what we need in the quantities needed. Our farming methods take some of these nutrients out of the soil, without replacing them.
>
> We have a lot to learn about how it all works.
>
> P.S. "Facts" about the "pig pill" program for anyone interested:
>
> cost is about $70/bottle, 2 bottles/month needed initially (32 pills a day - gulp!)
>
> you are assigned a "personal assistant", a real human being who is with you all the way (not a sales person, but someone with experience in this program). I like mine a lot. we keep in touch mostly by email, but we've also talked on the phone a few times. he's got four little kids and his wife has become involved in this, too.
>
> you keep a daily log of symptoms per DSM-IV checklist, and send it weekly to your assistant, who tracks your progress
>
> site is www.truehope.com and yes, it's corny. but just as the information given doesn't prove that there's anything valid here, it doesn't prove that it's NOT valid, either.
Posted by stjames on June 2, 2001, at 12:20:28
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by Truth is hard to find on June 2, 2001, at 0:02:42
> NOTE: I AM NOT RECOMMENDING TAKING THIS MUCH "STUFF". PARTICULARYLY SOME MINERAL DOSES IN HIGH LEVELS HAVE BEEN REPORTED TO CAUSE PROBLEMS, AS WELL AS VITAMIN A IN DOSES THIS HIGH
> FURTHERMORE, IF ONE'S LIVER OR KIDNEY FUNCTION IS IMPARIED, HIGH DOSES MAY (I UNDERSTAND) CAUSE PROBLEMS.James here....
Good points ! Vitamin A is TOXIC in a high enough dose. Given that TRUE HOPE has such high levels, what happens when you also eat food, which is full of vits and mins ? Possible toxic levels, thats what. The minerals and Vit A are of concern as they can be toxic if you take too much. Doing some quick math, if you take the suggested dose of TRUE HOPE and eat there is a good chance you will be at a dangerous level for vit A and some mins. If you are a vegan, even more so.
Please keep posting Deb_s, in the several years I have been here several have stopped meds and started whatever alternative treatment and we tend to never hear from them again. I can remember one who came back to report that they did not do well and were back on meds. Never heard from the others, despite how convinced they were, so I suspect they did not do well or they would of told us so.
Keep in mind mental illness is measured in montths and years, given its changable nature, so the true test is not a day or a week or a month of doing well.
James
Posted by Elizabeth on June 2, 2001, at 14:23:33
In reply to The issue of Harvard research on EM Power+ , posted by Truth is hard to find on June 1, 2001, at 22:59:29
> I should note that Dr. Stoll did not dismiss the POSSIBILITY of the supplements having an effect
> on manic-depression (the focus of his interest), but the basic "scientific summary" of the
> presentation was "it will be great if it works, but we have no credible data, only SELECTED
> testimonials, to support that conclusion".I don't know about this Truehope stuff (haven't been following the thread), but Stoll most certainly is very well aware of the efficacy of *some* "natural" remedies for mood disorders. (He's "that fish oil guy.")
There has been a lot of research at McLean recently attempting to determine which "food supplements" really work and which ones are just scams. There might be more info on this at their website (www.mcleanhospital.org).
-elizabeth
Posted by SLS on June 2, 2001, at 16:10:56
In reply to Re: The issue of Harvard research on EM Power+ , posted by Elizabeth on June 2, 2001, at 14:23:33
> > I should note that Dr. Stoll did not dismiss the POSSIBILITY of the supplements having an effect
> > on manic-depression (the focus of his interest), but the basic "scientific summary" of the
> > presentation was "it will be great if it works, but we have no credible data, only SELECTED
> > testimonials, to support that conclusion".
>
> I don't know about this Truehope stuff (haven't been following the thread), but Stoll most certainly is very well aware of the efficacy of *some* "natural" remedies for mood disorders. (He's "that fish oil guy.")
>
> There has been a lot of research at McLean recently attempting to determine which "food supplements" really work and which ones are just scams. There might be more info on this at their website (www.mcleanhospital.org).
>
> -elizabeth
This is sort of a tangent, but some recent work into the effects of rapid tryptophan depletion has repeated older work that demonstrates that it can precipitate depression in some vulnerable individuals and reverse the therapeutic response to antidepressants.
- Scott
Posted by AMenz on June 2, 2001, at 18:02:54
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by stjames on June 2, 2001, at 12:20:28
I am willing to try it.
After all the costs of treatment at present (ineffective I might add) is about $12,000 a year. If it doesn't work you lost 150 dollars but have the satisfaction of leaving no stone unturned.
When you are treatment resistant, you must seek answers. This doesn't seem totally off the wall and at least is being studied.
I tried the fish oil which made me extremely hyper almost hypomanic at smaller doses than Stoll administered to his group. I don't regret it, even if it did not work out.
> > NOTE: I AM NOT RECOMMENDING TAKING THIS MUCH "STUFF". PARTICULARYLY SOME MINERAL DOSES IN HIGH LEVELS HAVE BEEN REPORTED TO CAUSE PROBLEMS, AS WELL AS VITAMIN A IN DOSES THIS HIGH
> > FURTHERMORE, IF ONE'S LIVER OR KIDNEY FUNCTION IS IMPARIED, HIGH DOSES MAY (I UNDERSTAND) CAUSE PROBLEMS.
>
> James here....
>
> Good points ! Vitamin A is TOXIC in a high enough dose. Given that TRUE HOPE has such high levels, what happens when you also eat food, which is full of vits and mins ? Possible toxic levels, thats what. The minerals and Vit A are of concern as they can be toxic if you take too much. Doing some quick math, if you take the suggested dose of TRUE HOPE and eat there is a good chance you will be at a dangerous level for vit A and some mins. If you are a vegan, even more so.
>
> Please keep posting Deb_s, in the several years I have been here several have stopped meds and started whatever alternative treatment and we tend to never hear from them again. I can remember one who came back to report that they did not do well and were back on meds. Never heard from the others, despite how convinced they were, so I suspect they did not do well or they would of told us so.
>
> Keep in mind mental illness is measured in montths and years, given its changable nature, so the true test is not a day or a week or a month of doing well.
>
> James
Posted by Elizabeth on June 3, 2001, at 20:53:45
In reply to Re: The issue of Harvard research on EM Power+ , posted by SLS on June 2, 2001, at 16:10:56
> This is sort of a tangent, but some recent work into the effects of rapid tryptophan depletion has repeated older work that demonstrates that it can precipitate depression in some vulnerable individuals and reverse the therapeutic response to antidepressants.
I remember reading about the older research. I wonder if that is an effective test for depression (or for a particular subtype of depression).
-e
Posted by Elizabeth on June 3, 2001, at 20:55:00
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by AMenz on June 2, 2001, at 18:02:54
> I tried the fish oil which made me extremely hyper almost hypomanic at smaller doses than Stoll administered to his group. I don't regret it, even if it did not work out.
Did you try even smaller doses still?
IMO, any drug that can trigger mania should be investigated as a possible antidepressant.
-elizabeth
Posted by stjames on June 3, 2001, at 23:38:23
In reply to tryptophan depletion challenge » SLS, posted by Elizabeth on June 3, 2001, at 20:53:45
> > This is sort of a tangent, but some recent work into the effects of rapid tryptophan depletion has repeated older work that demonstrates that it can precipitate depression in some vulnerable individuals and reverse the therapeutic response to antidepressants.
>
> I remember reading about the older research. I wonder if that is an effective test for depression (or for a particular subtype of depression).
>
> -eJames here....
The depletion challenge that I know of was a military discovery and not just with trypto but all aminos. They were trying to find min. requirements for nutrition. They found that is 20-30 % of recuits, significant depression happened after this challange. At that time 20-30 % was the rate of clinical depression reported in the general population. However it is not a 2 way thing, giving depressives more aminos (provided they are not malnurished) does not make depression remit. I see it as depressives have a misregulation of these systems and are more sensitive to changes in these systems. It is not a simple question of "not enough" aminos.
James
Posted by Lorraine on June 4, 2001, at 9:57:09
In reply to Re: tryptophan depletion challenge, posted by stjames on June 3, 2001, at 23:38:23
There was also that drug or diet they did that caused tryptophan deficiency. Can't remember more--part of the disease. Anyway why not do a tryptophan challenge--just take it and see if it changes anything. (5HTP is all you can get now). I did this challenge--it didn't help. But I new that within a couple of days. (I know maybe it should have taken 6 weeks for it to have an effect, but these aminos and amino precursors have strong effects with me and I feel them right away.) I have also tried tyrosine, phenylalmine, glutamine, gaba, choline. They all have immediate and fairly profound effects on me. In a pinch, I would take tyrosine, phenylalmine and glutamine in a combo to make it through a few days between meds. The gaba I still take and give to my son (13) when he is too anxious to sleep before an exam. The choline, amazingly enough, seems to have stopped my "skin picking" (eating cuticles) behaviour so I think I'll continue it.
Posted by Ron Hill on June 4, 2001, at 10:17:26
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by AMenz on June 2, 2001, at 18:02:54
Amez,
It seems to me that there are two issues being raised in this thread: 1) Efficacy of Pig Pills; 2) Cost of Pig Pills. With respect to the later, I think the valid point being made by other posters such as stjames and Truth is hard to find, is that many good chelated multi-vitamin/multi-mineral products are available on the market FOR A LOT LESS MONEY. The inordinately high price of the Pig Pills leads me to question the altruistic motivations portrayed by Pig Pill Company spokespersons.
With regard to efficacy, IMHO various supplements, in conjunction with my meds, are beneficial for treatment of my BP II condition. As one example of the several supplements I take, a good chelated magnesium supplement taken just prior to bedtime improves my sleep quality. However, I personally am not willing to pay $140 per month for Pig Pills when I can buy the same quality of products elsewhere for a fraction of the cost.
That's my two cents worth on this topic. This and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee most anywhere in the US. (I'm not talking Starbucks and other "designer" coffees. I'm talking straight out of the pot, restaurant coffee.)
-- Ron
------------------------------------------------
> I am willing to try it.
>
> After all the costs of treatment at present (ineffective I might add) is about $12,000 a year. If it doesn't work you lost 150 dollars but have the satisfaction of leaving no stone unturned.
>
> When you are treatment resistant, you must seek answers. This doesn't seem totally off the wall and at least is being studied.
>
> I tried the fish oil which made me extremely hyper almost hypomanic at smaller doses than Stoll administered to his group. I don't regret it, even if it did not work out.
>
> > > NOTE: I AM NOT RECOMMENDING TAKING THIS MUCH "STUFF". PARTICULARYLY SOME MINERAL DOSES IN HIGH LEVELS HAVE BEEN REPORTED TO CAUSE PROBLEMS, AS WELL AS VITAMIN A IN DOSES THIS HIGH
> > > FURTHERMORE, IF ONE'S LIVER OR KIDNEY FUNCTION IS IMPARIED, HIGH DOSES MAY (I UNDERSTAND) CAUSE PROBLEMS.
> >
> > James here....
> >
> > Good points ! Vitamin A is TOXIC in a high enough dose. Given that TRUE HOPE has such high levels, what happens when you also eat food, which is full of vits and mins ? Possible toxic levels, thats what. The minerals and Vit A are of concern as they can be toxic if you take too much. Doing some quick math, if you take the suggested dose of TRUE HOPE and eat there is a good chance you will be at a dangerous level for vit A and some mins. If you are a vegan, even more so.
> >
> > Please keep posting Deb_s, in the several years I have been here several have stopped meds and started whatever alternative treatment and we tend to never hear from them again. I can remember one who came back to report that they did not do well and were back on meds. Never heard from the others, despite how convinced they were, so I suspect they did not do well or they would of told us so.
> >
> > Keep in mind mental illness is measured in montths and years, given its changable nature, so the true test is not a day or a week or a month of doing well.
> >
> > James
Posted by Elizabeth on June 4, 2001, at 16:29:01
In reply to Re: tryptophan depletion challenge, posted by Lorraine on June 4, 2001, at 9:57:09
> There was also that drug or diet they did that caused tryptophan deficiency. Can't remember more--part of the disease. Anyway why not do a tryptophan challenge--just take it and see if it changes anything. (5HTP is all you can get now). I did this challenge--it didn't help.
I wouldn't expect 5-HTP to help anyway, certainly not immediately. Tryptophan is probably an effective AD in some depressions, apparently the same types that are affected by TDC, although it's highly debatable whether it acts more rapidly than TCAs. (Catecholamine precursors, such as tyrosine, may have more rapid effects.) Addition of another drug to reduce peripheral metabolism may increase the effect of tryptophan.
Some reports have found that TDC has effects in bulimia nervosa, autism, aggression, drug addiction, panic disorder, and cluster B personality disorders as well as some depressions. Subtypes of depression noted to be affected include SAD and depression associated with the above conditions.
Response to TDC may predict response to serotonergic ADs such as SSRIs and MAOIs. Also, studies have indicated that TCAs and sleep deprivation may be more effective for nonresponders or partial responders to SSRIs.
> I have also tried tyrosine, phenylalmine, glutamine, gaba, choline. They all have immediate and fairly profound effects on me.
Can you describe the effects of each of these and how much you use? At least a couple of them are not supposed to have noticeable effects when used by themselves (for reasons related to metabolism -- which can of course vary among individuals).
-elizabeth
Posted by Steeler Tookahn on June 4, 2001, at 17:28:29
In reply to Re: tryptophan depletion challenge » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on June 4, 2001, at 16:29:01
I participated in a Tryptophan depletion study. It was done at the Clinical Neuroscience Research Unit, a research unit affiliated with Yale University, in New Haven CT. For several days we ate a diet deficient in tryptophan and then we were given a drink loaded with amino acids (essential and otherwise) but with no tryptophan. The depression most of us experienced was profound. I was immobilized –they watch you every second, so you’re not in danger. After a certain amount of time we were given a large dose of intravenous tryptophan. This usually had the effect of reversing the effects, for some people, even to feeling better than before the experiment began. I had an anomalous reaction and felt worse after the tryptophan. One of the researchers explained to me that occasionally the rapid “jolt” of tryptophan that we received seemed to trigger some sort of “braking” mechanism, so the body actually lowered the serum level of tryptophan temporarily. It only lasted about an hour.
Unfortunately, I don’t know if the study answered any questions about who might be more susceptible to a reduction in tryptophan –what depressive symptoms might indicate a more severe response and therefore, possibly, be most helped by tryptophan.
From what I saw, nearly all of the patients suffering from depression had their symptoms exacerbated by the test. A few did not. Medical students were used as a control group to study the effects on a depression-free population. Nearly none of them seemed to be bothered by the test –other than upset stomach and a few headaches. One of the students I got to know was quiet the whole day and I finally asked him what was the matter. He said, “I took that test yesterday and it was horrible. Now I know what you people go through”.
That really struck me. It’s as if the test could precipitate a depressant effect in those who might be predisposed. It held out a lot of hope that biological markers would soon be found and “types” of depression would be uncovered. This study was done in the late 80’s and unfortunately we don’t seem to have come very far in that area.
At some point, if I can find it, I’ll post a link, or the the actual abstract, of the study.
Posted by SLS on June 4, 2001, at 21:03:55
In reply to Re: tryptophan depletion challenge » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on June 4, 2001, at 16:29:01
Hi Elizabeth.
> I wouldn't expect 5-HTP to help anyway, certainly not immediately. Tryptophan is probably an effective AD in some depressions, apparently the same types that are affected by TDC, although it's highly debatable whether it acts more rapidly than TCAs. (Catecholamine precursors, such as tyrosine, may have more rapid effects.) Addition of another drug to reduce peripheral metabolism may increase the effect of tryptophan.
Is it your belief that 5-HTP is less likely to produce a benefit than is tryptophan?I don't know how often either of these substances, when used alone, act well as antidepressants. However, when I was growing up ;-), 5-HTP was considered to be the more potent of the two as an adjunct to antidepressants and as a biological probe to assess serotonergic function and HPA reactivity. There was generally more concern regarding the precipitation of serotonin syndrome with the use of 5-HTP than there was with tryptophan. In reviewing the literature, I was able to find some studies that demonstrate that the use of a peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor significantly enhances some of the effects of 5-HTP. I don't know about tryptophan.
van Praag was a smart son-of-a-gun.
Oh, check this out. The Discovery Channel is having a show about body-dysmorphic disorder. It looks interesting.
10:02 PM
Bye...
- Scott
Posted by Elizabeth on June 4, 2001, at 22:44:43
In reply to Re: tryptophan depletion challenge, posted by Steeler Tookahn on June 4, 2001, at 17:28:29
> One of the researchers explained to me that occasionally the rapid “jolt” of tryptophan that we received seemed to trigger some sort of “braking” mechanism, so the body actually lowered the serum level of tryptophan temporarily. It only lasted about an hour.
That seems likely. There are lots of compensatory mechanisms like this, in the brain and other systems (notably the cardiovascular).
In depressed patients who are treated with sleep deprivation, there is often a relapse the day after, when the patient wakes up (IIRC). Tryptophan depletion can attenuate this -- probably a result of adaptations made to compensate for the TP depletion.
> Unfortunately, I don’t know if the study answered any questions about who might be more susceptible to a reduction in tryptophan –what depressive symptoms might indicate a more severe response and therefore, possibly, be most helped by tryptophan.
Tryptophan doesn't have a great reputation as an AD; however, most clinical trials compared it to imipramine. I don't know of any head-to-head trials of tryptophan vs. fluoxetine. TDC does have some predictive value in that responders seem to be more likely to respond to serotonergic or mixed monoaminergic action ADs than to nonserotonergic ones. My suspicion is that SSRIs are probably more effective than tryptophan in TDC responders. But how to find out without using drug company money (which, IMO, would hopelessly bias such a study)?
> From what I saw, nearly all of the patients suffering from depression had their symptoms exacerbated by the test. A few did not. Medical students were used as a control group to study the effects on a depression-free population. Nearly none of them seemed to be bothered by the test –other than upset stomach and a few headaches.
My guess is that the medical students were screened and those with a history of depression were ruled out.
> One of the students I got to know was quiet the whole day and I finally asked him what was the matter. He said, “I took that test yesterday and it was horrible. Now I know what you people go through”.
These people -- those who haven't been depressed but who respond to TDC -- are, as you surmise, believed to be at risk for or predisposed to depression. I wonder if that guy had a family history of mood or anxiety disorders, alcoholism, etc.
I sort of think it would be neat if all medical students were subjected to this. It wouldn't have an effect on all of them, but it probably would on a lot, and the others would get to witness it firsthand in their classmates. An excellent educational opportunity. (Presumably med students who were on ADs or had a history of depression would be ruled out.)
> It held out a lot of hope that biological markers would soon be found and “types” of depression would be uncovered.
Yeah. There's too little interest in that sort of research now. Today it's all about getting big research grants from drug companies. It seems like the medical research community has given up on finding truly novel treatments or understanding how to predict what treatment will work for whom, and the focus is mostly on developing new drugs that do the same thing with fewer side effects.
There have been a lot of studies like the one you describe. Do you remember the names of any of the researchers, or the research centre (hospital, university, drug company, etc.)?
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on June 4, 2001, at 23:03:30
In reply to Re: tryptophan depletion challenge » Elizabeth, posted by SLS on June 4, 2001, at 21:03:55
> Is it your belief that 5-HTP is less likely to produce a benefit than is tryptophan?
I'm not sure. There're reasons to believe either. Overall I think you'd probably be better off with an SSRI or MAOI, though, if you have severe depression. Precursors have been found to be good augmentors.
> I don't know how often either of these substances, when used alone, act well as antidepressants. However, when I was growing up ;-), 5-HTP was considered to be the more potent of the two as an adjunct to antidepressants and as a biological probe to assess serotonergic function and HPA reactivity.
"Back in my day..." :-)
> There was generally more concern regarding the precipitation of serotonin syndrome with the use of 5-HTP than there was with tryptophan. In reviewing the literature, I was able to find some studies that demonstrate that the use of a peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor significantly enhances some of the effects of 5-HTP. I don't know about tryptophan.
Yeah, that's a problem that comes into play with both 5-HT and 5-HTP: peripheral metabolism.
> van Praag was a smart son-of-a-gun.
Agreed. He practised what is sometimes known as "pharmacological dissection," which has been a fruitful and underutilised form of psychiatric research.
> Oh, check this out. The Discovery Channel is having a show about body-dysmorphic disorder. It looks interesting.
How was it?
-elizabeth
Posted by Lorraine on June 5, 2001, at 2:35:29
In reply to Re: tryptophan depletion challenge » Lorraine, posted by Elizabeth on June 4, 2001, at 16:29:01
{ I wouldn't expect 5-HTP to help anyway, certainly not immediately.}
Why not? It's a precursor to trytophan, isn't it?
{TDC}
What is TDC?
> > I have also tried tyrosine, phenylalmine, glutamine, gaba, choline. They all have immediate and fairly profound effects on me.
Tyrosine is a real puppy upper, but can cause me to hyperventilate. Phenylalamine makes me feel "pressure". It's a wierd but uncomfortable feeling for me. (Doesn't it metabolize to PEA?) Glutamine is another puppy upper for me although not as strong as Tyrosine. Once between meds I took Tyrosine, Phenylalamine and Glutamine together (I think about 1 gm each 2x day) and I made it through a funeral trip--but not that well. GABA sedates me. Choline, oddly enough, has stopped me from biting my fingernails and cuticles. I feel the effects of these within an hour. My exact doses were taken from thewayup.com. But I don't think I could tolerate as much as she recommended. I think these things can be potent. That fellow who is concerned with panic disorders (Shapiro? --something like that recommends acetyline precusors, which I think means choline. Anyway, everyone's mileage does vary. My pdoc, who encouraged this experimentation with the precursors, was not surprised that I responded to them so quickly and strongly, although he said not everyone does. Priscilla Slagle (thewayup.com) notes very quick reactions to these--within the hour. And the woman who wrote The Diet Cure (Julia Ross) notes the same quick response time as well. The 5HTP made me very sleepy. I actually got a prescription to tryptophan, but passed on it given my reaction to 5HTP.
Posted by libberty on September 10, 2003, at 19:09:17
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by AMenz on June 2, 2001, at 18:02:54
HI,
I have been taking truehope EMPower for 4 mos and am doing well. I hoped to talk to anyone else who also takes these suppliments.libberty
Posted by HenryO on September 11, 2003, at 4:21:23
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by libberty on September 10, 2003, at 19:09:17
I have taken them on and off for awhile. I can't tell if it does anything. I don't take the recomended 18 capsules a day, that is too rough on my digestion. Do you believe they are helping you? How much do you take?
Posted by libberty on September 11, 2003, at 17:20:53
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by HenryO on September 11, 2003, at 4:21:23
WEll considering that each time I used to go off meds, I was very ill in days, I am doing extraordinarily well. I take 18 capsules every day and I use the soy protein shakes each morning. I always take them with food and I use some pepcid AC if I get any upset stomach, but I have had gastro reflux for a few years now.
I feel like this is really working well except one problem I continue to have is insomnia so I take a little dose of remeron or tegretol for the time being til I get thru the protracted withdrawals.
Are you still on meds?
dee
Posted by HenryO on September 12, 2003, at 1:51:00
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by libberty on September 11, 2003, at 17:20:53
Yes, I take Lamictal and I'm staying on it.
I can't stomach 18 of those capsules a day (maybe things would be better if I could), nor do I want to find out how ugly it would be to go off my meds again. I have had all I care to of being med free. Without something strong helping me, my depression is extremely painful.
I take Omegabrite and some of the Truehope stuff but I won't give up my meds. I am about to dust off my SAD light for the winter season. I use what ever I can, but I am also sticking with medication. That is just from my experience of feeling great for a while then pulling back from my medication and a few months later getting hammered.
Medication is five times better at preventing depression than it is at curring it.
Two questions:
What do you mean, "I use the soy protein shakes each morning." Is that something else they sell?
What are you withdrawing from?
Posted by libberty on September 12, 2003, at 18:09:51
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by HenryO on September 12, 2003, at 1:51:00
HI
I agree, do what is necessary to stay well, I just wasn't having luck staying well on medications so I was willing to come off them. I was diagnosed bipolar1 with psychotic features in 1994. I was taking 400 mg tegretol, 20 mg celexa, 15mg remeron and had been taking .5mg klonopin for sleep.
The soy protein I buy at a health food store locally, it is useful for withdrawal symptoms that feel like the flu. I use vegefuel.dee
Posted by HenryO on September 13, 2003, at 3:24:09
In reply to Re: TRUEHOPE: $ cost comparison vs other brands, posted by libberty on September 12, 2003, at 18:09:51
Have you stopped meds completely?
You are still having withdrawal symptoms, how long has it been since you have taken any drugs?
How long usually until your disease returns when you go off your meds?
Do the true hope people call you weekly?
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