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Re: Evolutionary Theory and Creationism » messadivoce

Posted by alexandra_k on September 6, 2005, at 23:58:41

In reply to Re: Evolutionary Theory and Creationism, posted by messadivoce on September 6, 2005, at 23:17:37

> Alex, you and I are not going to agree on this.

Thats okay :-)
I'm sorry I sound a little dogmatic at times... I don't mean to sound that way... I'm not upset or anything if people disagree with me. And trying to clarify my thinking... Is to my own benefit at any rate. I appreciate that you have thought about what I had to say :-)

With respect to whether the intelligent design hypothesis is a scientific theory or not... To be honest it all depends on how you define a scientific as opposed to unscientific theory.

Unscientific theories aren't necessarily bad or false - it is just that they do not compete with scientific explanations.

On most standard interpretations of what 'scientific theory' amounts to it amounts to a theory that is either true or false. It makes claims about the natural world which are capable of being supported by observations of the natural world or capable of being falsified by observations of the natural world which show the theory to be false.

If you allow the intelligent design hypothesis as scientific you also must allow the brain in a vat hypothesis as scientific. Or the 'the universe has doubled in size overnight' theory as scientific.

> It takes a lot of faith to believe that everything from the human body to penguins to platypuses (sp?) just happened, randomly and without a Designer.

Nobody believes that.
The 'randomness' is mutation. That has a relatively small part to play in evolutionary theory.
And it isn't that they 'just happened' it is that they happened just so... and then there is a more detailed theory that science aims to provide.

Okay... So my biology isn't that great but I shall have a go...

Take a population (of whatever species you like).
Those that are best suited to the environment tend (on average) to have more offspring than the individuals that are not so well suited to the environment.

Some characteristics are heritable which means that they are more likely to be passed on to the next generation.

There is also mutation that occurs so some members of the next generation may have a new characteristic.

So mutation is the only random element. Aside from this you just need
- a population where members vary with respect to fitness (fitness is ALWAYS relative to environment)
- a population where those characteristics that provide relative fitness are heritable (more likely to be passed on to the next generation.
- mutation (so that new features can arise).

Evolution is defined as 'change in a populations gene pool over time'. And that happens. We can observe that in the lab even. So I guess the difficulty is whether one species can evolve into another species over time. We have found fossils to support the hypothesis that this is so.

> Not to say I don't believe God couldn't use evolution if he wanted to...

Right. And so evolutionary theory does not preclude their being a god.

> Putting all evidence aside, from either theory, I just find it really hard to believe that everything that exists in earth was a random series of events.

I could try and find you a link on evolutionary theory that explains things with a minimum of rambelling terminology if you would like.

Because it is quite an important point... That evolutionary theory does not appeal to a 'random series of events' in explanation. If it did do that... Then it would indeed be inadequate.

Evolutionary theory is difficult. I don't have my head fully around it. I'm sure the first year students who study it for a couple weeks don't really have their heads around it. I don't think most high school students do either. And i don't see how diluting the science curriculum will help with that. Because... It is important to understand what evolutionary theory says before considering whether things really could have happened the way they say it did.

>It's not out of the realm of possibility that a beautiful designed sculpture or painting was made by someone. Why is it out of the realm of possibility that our fabulous bodies were created by someone? I don't understand why that's not a viable alternative.

Evolutionary theory doesn't rule out that god created the world. god could have caused the big bang. science is silent on the cause of the big bang (science can only talk of causes from within the natural world if you ask what set the first event in the natural world into motion then the answer to that question will always lie beyond science).

So 'god made the people and the species' may be true (evolutionary theory doesn't care). The point is just that if god did indeed make people then this is how he did it...

> If scientists are looking for God's literal "fingerprints" then they aren't there. If they are trying to "prove" the existance of God, they can't.
> But if they try to prove the lack of a God, they can't to it either. So they have to have faith that no God exists.

Because there is no proof either way the scientists conclude that whether god exists or not is not something that is a matter of science. science is about the observable world. god lies beyond science. with respect to god... science is silent. you can believe in god and be a scientist. an evolutionary biologist even. there is no contradiction in that. there is only a problem if god (as you define him) rules out evolutionary theory as being a true explanation of the origins of life on this planet. the scientists are good enough to leave god out of it they appreciate that science has nothing to do with god. it would be nice if the theologians could extend the same courtesy in return. god has nothing to do with an explanation of natural world phenomena.


 

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