Posted by MCK on November 28, 2004, at 19:44:38
In reply to Re: Unfortunatley -Larry Hoover » MCK, posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2004, at 10:45:21
> > As the daughter of a poultry farmer, (and now a vegetarian) I'm quite surprised that you could make such an assertion, unless you've worked on a poultry farm very recently for a good long time!
>
> Broiler farming, where I come from, is a very automated process. Efficiencies are measured in tenths of a percent of feed conversion. The birds are not confined until being trasported, having been held in open sheds on deep litter. There is no opportunity for gavage. Poor converters of feed are culled, not force-fed.That's not typical. The birds are generally kept in fattening cages for 3-4 weeks. The close proximity breeds illness, one bird gets sick they all get sick. Force feeding of antibiotics with food is frequent, with a life span that short,it's proportionate to a large amount of time.
> > Sadly, force feeding is used, not always, (with Turkeys it is usually) but you bet it is! When those chickens and turkeys need to be fattened up in a hurry for market there is no other way. Stomach injuries ocurr but more common are tears to the neck and throat.
>
> I did not mean to imply that it never happened.It certainly came across that way, you corrected two people, neither of whom stated that it always happened, you denied the validity of two written
articles, stating that you wanted to make sure the facts were correct. Your knowledge was to be accepted as superior because you'd been to a few farms, and that you couldn't find anything on Google. You aren't going to find peer reviewed journal articles about the ethics of chicken farming. You may find some on how to fatten chickens more quickly, or on disease. As for your having been to a few farms, it's like a childless person saying you've visited a few families and now you know all about raising children.>
> > My father doesn't like to do this, and neither do most of the "farmers" he knows, but in order to keep the price down and make a living he feels he has no other choice, drastic changes have happened in farming even in the last few years.
>
> I cannot imagine the process is commonplace.You not being able to imagine it, does not make it fact. Check out the market for chicken tube feeders.
> > Even chicken catching as you referred to is not the same in most places. The chickens are usually just grabbed by their feet straight out of a crate and don't need to be caught, they didn't have anywhere to go!
>
> The birds I'm talking about are not confined in any respect (other than by the shed walls), except for transport to slaughter.You haven't been to Tysons obviously.
>
> > Some have been forced in one place so long their feet have grown over the wire at the bottom of the cage--they "can't" eat out of a trough.
>
> Are you talking about laying hens?No I'm talking about Broiler chickens in fattening crates, what we were talking about.
How long has it been since you've seen a factory farm?
>
> > Groups like P.E.T.A don't haveto exaggerate the abuses that happen in farming unfortunately, I wish they did. I've learned that one can always assume the worst is true.
>
> Oh dear. Some people are murderers. Because I'm a people, am I a murderer?
>No, but one can assume, that most people in prison for murder are murderers. You had stated you wanted the facts straight. I suspect there is more at stake here than that. You obviously haven't done specific recent research and are talking about some farms somewhere that are not large suppliers of chicken.
What you originally felt you needed to correct was the idea that chickens are not always force fed, turkeys usually are. You said "No matter how many P.E.T.A articles said so It doesn't happen"
It doesn't happen because you say it doesn't happen. That's all you have so far. I brought up what I know to be true, having lived it and you still are saying it doesn't happen. So much for the facts.
It's not a big deal to me, as far as cruelty to chickens go, force feeding is really quite minor, I was trying to provide correct information, because you had corrected two people who did not need correcting.
As it is, this is turning into a he said she said, which is not what I'd intended. Obviously you will believe what you want, but please don't claim that it's because you want to provide the facts.
The exceptional cases ought not to be used to taint the reputations of the remainder.
Oh Good Heavens, even people who don't give a whit know that mass market chickens are not raised humanely.
> > I'm not criticizing all farmers, I believe they are victims too,
>
> I think you are doing so.Again, what you think does not make it fact,
I too am aware it's a matter of economics, and I believe that many have had to sacrifice their dreams to make living. I've seen the pain personally, you have no right to make such a judgement.
> > and many times it's the hired workers who through carelessness or cruelty cause much needless suffering.
>
>, strange as that may seem. That's how we do it hereabouts, based on my personal knowledge.Obviously they are not large chicken factories.
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> > You mentioned no matter how many Peta articles say so it's not true that poultry is force fed.
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> Our divergence in belief is an issue of frequency, not of absolute existence of the practise. I believe it is far less common than it is alleged to be.
>Then perhaps you shouldn't have said "It doesn't happen" after the other poster said it doesn't always happen.
>
> The factory farms I've been to don't resemble what you describe, in any respect.It's interesting that you would frequent factory chicken farms, not being a farmer or a farmworker.
And as for the post about chicken pate, it's not always labelled chicken pate, that was my point.
It can still command top dollar as fois gras to the unseasoned palate.
poster:MCK
thread:420601
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20041122/msgs/421545.html