Posted by Dr. Bob on January 26, 2004, at 0:40:12
In reply to Re: Brain fog « LightShifter, posted by Dr. Bob on January 24, 2004, at 15:15:03
Re: Redirect: education
Posted by riddlemethis on January 24, 2004, at 16:31:08
In reply to Redirect: education, posted by Dr. Bob on January 24, 2004, at 15:16:05
You claim that "brainwashing" children to learn "idiotic things" like the names of the members of the Supreme Court are not necessary. That's sad, since it is the Supreme Court decisions that impact our lives. Shouldn't people be educated about the "people" who's decions have such an impact on their country/lives? It isn't so much as remembering the names as it is just knowing what the system is about. It's very disturbing to think that there are people out there who don't believe that it is important to be educated about the country we live in, especially when our lives are run by it. It is true that we learn things in school that we don't need. The problem, however, is that we also learn plenty of things that are very important, and it is those things, as well, that children don't want to learn. Most kids don't like school, no matter what's being taught. If we allow them to discontinue their educations (because they don't want to be there) we're setting them up for lives of ignorance. You keep saying that you're not against education, but instead you're against forcing childrne to learn things they don't want to learn. (because they won't be interested) So again, I ask. What about all the children who don't want to learn basic reading/math? Do we allow them to grow up illiterate just so as not to force them to learn something they don't want to learn? I realise you have a problem that is very troubling. It's hard for you to learn. It must have been very hard as a child. But instead of blaming the very system you had trouble with, why not try and figure out why you, and not every child, has trouble with it. There are plenty of bright children going through the same educational system. Why is it then, if it is the "way" we're learning, that not all children have this porblem? It just sounds like you'd rather blame something, anything, instead of dealing with the fact that maybe it is you who has the problem. It isn't fun living with brain fog. Believe me, I know this well. It's just easier to say: "Well, it's not ME. I wouldn't be this way if xxxxxxxx was different."
Sorry for the double post *I think.* Still trying to find my way around this site.
p.s. I wasn't forced to learn. Now I wish I had been. I'm starting, as an adult, from the very bottom. It could have been so much easier had I been forced as a child.
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Re: Redirect: education
Posted by LightShifter on January 24, 2004, at 23:32:34
In reply to Re: Redirect: education, posted by riddlemethis on January 24, 2004, at 16:31:08
>>>> You claim that "brainwashing" children to learn "idiotic things" like the names of the members of the Supreme Court are not necessary. That's sad, since it is the Supreme Court decisions that impact our lives. Shouldn't people be educated about the "people" who's decions have such an impact on their country/lives? It isn't so much as remembering the names as it is just knowing what the system is about. It's very disturbing to think that there are people out there who don't believe that it is important to be educated about the country we live in, especially when our lives are run by it.
>>>> I can't beleive their are people out there who actually think they are really getting the Truth about what's going on by being "educated" in schools. What we are told is one thing. What is REALITY is another. I was told to believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny as a kid too.
As a child I was taught to believe the indians were savage and we had to "protect" ourselves from them when the fact is that we stole their land from them... Politics is just that. A game of numbers and control of people by making sure they hear what they want to. And the papers and TV's are all run by the republicans or the rich anyway and the TV will cater to the owners to feed whatever propoganda to the people they want. Watch "Wag The Dog" sometime if you want to get an idea. They are the one's who determine what "spins" are put on things. As well as what information is placed in our children's textbooks
in schools.>>> It is true that we learn things in school that we don't need. The problem, however, is that we also learn plenty of things that are very important, and it is those things, as well, that children don't want to learn.
>>> Very important according to who, You? Because you value something doesn't mean the whole world or anyone else is wrong if they have diffeent values. How do you know what children do or do not want to learn? Each child has their own values. This is another one of the big problems is that we insist all children must have the same values. This is what "standards" and "statistics" is all about. I feel we are SUPPOSED TO BE DIFFERENT and having different values is a good thing not a "bad" thing.
"Sad"? - I think it's "sad" that some people can be so myopic and blind to what it means to respect children's intelligence and free will and that it's "sad" that so many people still believe that children's robotic obedience and compliance is more important than thier individualtion and Creative Intelligence. That it's more important to "breed" children like cattle than it is to love them to develop their natural innate talents which often go unnoticed due to such a fixated preoccupation with "how well they do in school".>>> If we allow them to discontinue their educations (because they don't want to be there) we're setting them up for lives of ignorance.
...How do you know that? How do you know children won't read voraciously? People don't need to be spoon fed information. They can learn it on their own. At the very least they should make it all ellective instead of forcing cirriculums on them.
>>>Did you know that when You keep saying that you're not against education, but instead you're against forcing childrne to learn things they don't want to learn. (because they won't be interested) So again, I ask. What about all the children who don't want to learn basic reading/math? Do we allow them to grow up illiterate just so as not to force them to learn something they don't want to learn?
... Why is it that you insist upon believing that if people are not "forced" that they will not want to learn? As a child weren't you naturally curious about things? What is making learning unattractive is not the subjects, it is the way children are being treated with disrespect. IF children don't want to learn something and you force it upon them what do you think that is going to do to improve things? Do you actually think they are going to want to learn now that you have forced them to? IT only makes them not want to learn more because of the bad expereince you have just imposed upon them by forcing it. IF you really want to help them find out why they don't want to learn... I believe most children will learn how to read on their own and again, I was not really talking about these "primary skills" anyway. I was talking about all the other years of useless garbage that we waste their childhood years learning that goes to complete waste. People were learning how to read way before compulsory education came into being. And most parents are literate today who if they are any kind or parents at all, will read with the child as they are young and inspire them to read.
>>> I realise you have a problem that is very troubling. It's hard for you to learn. It must have been very hard as a child.
...Actually it wasn't learning I had a problem with. IT was being forced to learn and listen at a pace that was not good for me. I learn fine.
>>>But instead of blaming the very system you had trouble with, why not try and figure out why you, and not every child, has trouble with it.
... What good does it do if we insist the children are all at fault for not learning and do nothing to look at the methods? Yes the children may need help but it is just as likely that the system and methods may need help. IF children cannot keep up with a pace they should not be forced to. We set them up for a whole life full of low-self confidence issues when we do that. The child ends up blaming themself for being "slow" or "stupid" or any number of things because we insist they "keep up" with the rest of the class. Do you have any idea how demeaning it is to children to be laughed at and rediculed because they are "not smart" or "quick" like others who are more blessed? We torture children when we do this!>>> There are plenty of bright children going through the same educational system. Why is it then, if it is the "way" we're learning, that not all children have this porblem? It just sounds like you'd rather blame something, anything, instead of dealing with the fact that maybe it is you who has the problem.
.... Blaming anyone isn't the solution. Blame only causes more problems. And just like children who can run faster than others the children who are "brighter" can simply think faster. You seem to be more interested about who to blame than to how to fix the problem. I am not the only person who is slower than others. Many children are and the way we academically "measure" children sets the whole thing up for "winners" and "losers". We measure children's worth by how easily they can be programmed and spit answers back to their teachers. Any robot can do that. Again, if you read "Dumbing Us Down" by John Gotto you will get a lot of answers from a guy who was voted twice the New York state Teacher of the Year because he saw what was going on and learned how to respect his students ways of learning...
>>> It isn't fun living with brain fog. Believe me, I know this well. It's just easier to say: "Well, it's not ME. I wouldn't be this way if xxxxxxxx was different."
... You keep insisting I'm living in denial of my issue. I am not. I am simply saying that we are not being effective and civilized in the way we teach children. It is not set-up so children can feel good about their learning abilities. It is set up so that they have to constantly compete under stress to be "on top". This stress-filled method is simply not conducive to good learning. I believe any good psychologist today will attest that learning under pressure is not the best way to learn. There are way too many children on Ritalin to go on thinking it's an individualized problem. Even the FDA was suspicious about the high rate of Ritalin being manufactured. We are not all meant to learn at the same pace! It's That simple. What's the rush anyway? Anyway, if we got rid off all the rubbish we are learning we could learn what's essential in 1/2 the time instead of waste 12 years on "academics".We are also not engaging the Right side of the brain enough in our learning procedures. Many people learn visually instead of audibly.... Or maybe we should blame them for their learning styles as well.
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> Sorry for the double post *I think.* Still trying to find my way around this site.
>
> p.s. I wasn't forced to learn. Now I wish I had been. I'm starting, as an adult, from the very bottom. It could have been so much easier had I been forced as a child.... I think you'd feel differently if you were forced. Forcing dosen't help children to learn as you think it does. It shuts them down and causes their whole life to become filled with stress. Learning is supposed to be a joy not torture. If you really think about it I think you'll find that the reason you didn't want to learn in the first place was probably because you either didn't have any interest in what was being taught or you didn't enjoy the way it was being presented - forcefully. Besides, who says you need to go to school to learn anything? I have bookcases full of books I taught myself about things. And that's all teachers do - teach you the stuff that you could have just as easily read out of a book and learned at your own leisure if you were allowed to. And with the internet today we virtually have the world's libraries at our finger-tips in our homes.
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Re: Redirect: education
Posted by riddlemethis on January 25, 2004, at 20:53:50
In reply to Re: Redirect: education, posted by LightShifter on January 24, 2004, at 23:32:34
But this isn't just about school, is it? Forced learening can take place anywhere, even at home, if a child does not want to learn anything.
<<Very important according to who, You? Because you value something doesn't mean the whole world or anyone else is wrong if they have diffeent values.>>
Well, I do consider reading and writing very important, as it isn't possible get by by in society without those skills. I believe learning about the governemnt that makes decisions for them is imporant. Their lives are ruled by it. They should know about the people making decisions for them. Unless of course it's OK for them, as adults, to sit by and just let others make decisions for them without knowing what it's all about, without knowing that they might be able to play a role in changing the decision makers, etc. Teaching them about the Court, the President, etc. Yes, important. These kids are going to be the next generation of voters. Don't you think they should know that they have a say in the way the country is run, that they don't just have to sit by and let others make decisions for them? There are some things that children need to learn.
<<How do you know what children do or do not want to learn? Each child has their own values.>>
I know because I was in school for my entire life. I was a child and I was around children. There were kids who loved learning, and there were kids who didn't want to learn. There were kids who didn't want to learn even the most basic reading skills. They would rather be outside playing. Whether it's taught at school or at home, when learning is concerned, plenty of children would rather be doing something else. I don't oppose home schooling. In fact, I think for some it's the best choice. But again, that's not what I was arguing against. That doesn't mean that children should be left to make decisions about their educations, left to play video games and watch tv all day (if that's what they would rather do instead of learning) That's where I disagreed on your oposition to forced education. How long do we let them continue "doing something else because they would rather do that instead of learn" before we realize they've become adults who can't read, know nothing about their own government and, because of that, are basically at the mercy of it. I want Bush out of office. To do that, I know I have to vote. I know that I need to learn about at least something about the government. PLenty of people don't even understand simple things like that. Our government would still be run by democrats if the majority of dems bothered to vote. They didn't.
<<"Sad"? - I think it's "sad" that some people can be so myopic and blind to what it means to respect children's intelligence and free will and that it's "sad" that so many people still believe that children's robotic obedience and compliance is more important than thier individualtion and Creative Intelligence. That it's more important to "breed" children like cattle than it is to love them to develop their natural innate talents which often go unnoticed due to such a fixated preoccupation with "how well they do in school".>>
Breed them like cattle? Your comparing educating children to breeding them like cattle? And what does that have to do with loving them? Loving a child has many aspects, the nurturing/emotional side, and the side that wants them to grow both emotionally and intellectually. One doesn't have to exist without the other, and educating children can hardly be compared to breedimg them like cattle. As far as respecting their individuality, I'm all for it. But to respect a child's individuality doesn't necessarily mean to allow that child to make imp decision for him/herself. A child's individuality can be nurtured while still giving that child an education. That doesn't mean a child should have to sit in a school room and be programmed like a robot. What that means is that even if a child is educated at home, that's fine, as long as that child IS being educated. I don't consider teaching a child math takes away from a childs right to develope a sense of self. lol
<<People were learning how to read way before compulsory education came into being. And most parents are literate today who if they are any kind or parents at all, will read with the child as they are young and inspire them to read.>>
Yes, because they were taught. How do you know they were so eager to sit in a room learning to read? How do you know they didn't bug their parents to let them to out and play, do something else, anything else?
<<How do you know that? How do you know children won't read voraciously? People don't need to be spoon fed information. They can learn it on their own. At the very least they should make it all ellective instead of forcing cirriculums on them>>Learn to read on their own? Reading is not the same thing and learning to walk by onself, breathing, etc. It isn't a skill that one is born with, or developes through nature. If I wasn't taught what "A" is, I wouldn't know what sound it makes.
<<What good does it do if we insist the children are all at fault for not learning and do nothing to look at the methods? Yes the children may need help but it is just as likely that the system and methods may need help. IF children cannot keep up with a pace they should not be forced to. We set them up for a whole life full of low-self confidence issues when we do that. The child ends up blaming themself for being "slow" or "stupid" or any number of things because we insist they "keep up" with the rest of the class. Do you have any idea how demeaning it is to children to be laughed at and rediculed because they are "not smart" or "quick" like others who are more blessed? We torture children when we do this!>>
Now that, I agree with. I don't believe children should all have to learn at the same pace, for the simple fact that not every child learns at the same pace. And yes, I know how demeaning it is. I lived it. It wasn't forced learning that caused the problems, it was the fact that instead of tailoring my learning to my own pace, I had to learn at the same pace as the others. I never said our school system was perfect. That was never my argument. Sure, it has faults, and that's one of them. But saying that children shouldn't be forced to learn anything if they don't want to is utterly ridiculous, and certainly different than saying they should all be able to learn at their own pace. The latter, I agree with. Like I said, plenty of kids would rather be out playing than learning anything, and I do mean anything.
<<.... Blaming anyone isn't the solution. Blame only causes more problems. And just like children who can run faster than others the children who are "brighter" can simply think faster. You seem to be more interested about who to blame than to how to fix the problem>>
On the contrary, it is you hwo seems to feel the need to place blame on something/anything, as long as it has nothing to do with you. Yes, children learn at different rates. And I agree with you that they shouldn't all be "forced" to learn at the same rates. That is, of course, different than not forcing them to learn at all. The educational system lacks, most definitely, and we need to take into consideration that not all children have the same abilities. That doesn't mean we should blame education itself, less for the way it's taught.
<<If you really think about it I think you'll find that the reason you didn't want to learn in the first place was probably because you either didn't have any interest in what was being taught or you didn't enjoy the way it was being presented - forcefully. Besides, who says you need to go to school to learn anything? I have bookcases full of books I taught myself about things. And that's all teachers do - teach you the stuff that you could have just as easily read out of a book and learned at your own leisure if you were allowed to. And with the internet today we virtually have the world's libraries at our finger-tips in our homes.>>
Actually, I wanted very much to learn. Like I said in one of my past posts, I craved knowledge. The problem was not that I disliked what I was being taught, it was that I was being taught at a pace that was set for all of the children. I was slower, so obviouslly I had a very hard time. I'm not arguing with you about how the system lacks. There should most definitely be help for children who learn at slower levels. But at the same time, I don't believe that allowing a child discontinue education all together based on when that child feels like learning is the thng to do. Children may be curious about things, but that doesn't mean that if they had a choice between learning basic skills, and watching tv, playing video games, going to the park, they'd chose learning.
Again, Individuality, learning at one's own pace, etc., are all very important. I agree with that. That doesn't, however, mean that children should be left to make decisions as to whetheror not they want to learn. There's a big difference there. You're taking it from one extreme (the educational system that fails the slow kids which, by the way, I agree with) to another extreme of (kids shouldn't be forced to learn anything they don't want) Neither extreme is good. There has to be some middle ground.
poster:Dr. Bob
thread:305074
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20040120/msgs/305486.html