Posted by Tamar on December 14, 2005, at 18:53:12
In reply to Re: scapegoating + please be civil/I have been/bye » Dr. Bob, posted by allisonross on December 14, 2005, at 14:33:50
Hey Ally,
I’ve turned my response into a ‘script’ because there were so many different parts to it, I was getting confused…
Ally: As a child, I fought back constantly agains the abuse. I asked my sister "why was I the scapegoat?" She said: "Because you would never shut up!"Dr Bob: I'm not saying you should shut up,
Ally: What is the purpose in saying that ...Why even mention it, then?
Tamar: I think it was just a reference back to what your sister used to say.
Ally: Why would you [Dr Bob] even suggest that? I was speaking of something very sensitive here.
Tamar: I think it was meant kindly. After all, he’s NOT saying you should shut up.
Dr Bob: but I do wonder if you're becoming a scapegoat here...
Ally: Why do you say this?
If you wonder about this,
why haven't you done something? (I have no idea what it is that you would do)Tamar: Again, I think it’s a reference back to what your sister said. I had the impression Dr Bob meant: “People respond to what you say because you say things. You can still say things. But some people will respond negatively.”
Ally: (I won't be readintg the response, either on babble or if I get any personal mail.
If I am "their scapegoat". it is because of "their" stuff. Nothing to do with me. Obviously they have some major issues (especially when I make a joke not referring to ANYONE, and someone says they are hurt. Everyone chooses their behavior.Tamar: I agree. It is “their” stuff. But on the other hand, people do respond the way they respond. If we say things that seem to be controversial, people might respond negatively. Even if we think the things we say shouldn’t be controversial. It’s nearly impossible to get everyone to agree all the time. And sometimes when people disagree it’s very difficult to avoid a little pain and anger. So I guess we all have to be ready to accept that stuff we think is perfectly harmless might actually get someone else immensely angry. And we just have to live with that, in my opinion.
Ally: Perhaps I will decide to stay, to just see how many other tornadoes I can cause!
Just jokin' everyone, just jokin here!!Dinah: I understand that was a joke. But I wonder why you chose to make it.
Ally: See, this is more criticism...
It WAS a criticism.!!!Tamar: I don’t want to criticize you! But I didn’t understand Dinah’s remark as criticism. I thought she was only asking why you made that particular joke in those particular circumstances. Sometimes humour doesn’t always come across well online, so the point of the joke can be lost very easily.
Ally: So, because I didn't say I...feel criticized when I hear this, I get a message?
In other words everything has to be exact and precise, or someone is sent a message, blocked or scolded. This place feels like grade school, with a lot of time-outs.
Hey, they are YOUR rules, and you can do what you want, but i cannot be part of what I see as criticism, abuse and confusion.Tamar: (((((Ally))))) Unfortunately, I think confusion is sometimes unavoidable. We just have to do what we can to clear things up. I know you felt criticised, but I think people were genuinely trying to be supportive and trying to understand. I hope you can begin to imagine that what you saw as criticism might also be interpreted as genuine attempts to understand.
Dr Bob: Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused. Referring to their posts as criticism could lead them to feel accused of being critical.
Ally: This is a BIZARRE statement.
Tamar: I can see why you say that. But if you look at it a different way, maybe you can imagine that someone who DIDN’T intend to criticise you might feel hurt if you insist that their post was objectively critical. Whereas if you say you felt criticised (subjectively), the person who posted to you wouldn’t feel accused of being objectively critical, especially if they were only trying to understand. Does that make sense?
Ally: I endured a firestorm of criticism, and responded to all of it----I should have known better; (and....I did it with dignity)
Validating it was a mistake, and that was what I was doing.---Explaining myself over and over; just like in 31 years of abuse. Validating something that never should have been responded to........responding to criticism....validates it.
If someone is criticizing you (or it FEELS like that, you are saying not to use the word criticism?! This is double-talk, double-speak, group-think, and now I know why it is called psycho----Tamar: My own personal view of it is that it can be a good idea to try to imagine that everyone is on your side. So if you read something that hurts, try to imagine that the person who wrote it didn’t mean to hurt you. Try to find out if you might have misunderstood them. Sometimes, admittedly, people really do say hurtful things on purpose. But more often than not, people are genuinely wishing you the best and there’s been some misunderstanding.
Ally: If you feel/see that I am being criticized and a "scapegoat" why in the world would you tell ME not to say anything that others could feel criticized by, when I (underline I) am the one being criticized?!
In my whole life Fifty-Nine years, I have NEVER been accused of being critical, insensitive, etc.
I have NEVER been told I was not civil. I have class and tact (I have been told all of my life).
I counsel abused women; I am excruciatingly CAREFUL with my words. I am an "expert" in verbal/physical and spiritual abuse.Tamar: Hey, even us experts slip up sometimes : ) I’m careful too, but I have occasionally hurt people without meaning to. And sometimes I get angry and belligerent. I’m only human. And so are you. I don’t think you’re an uncivil person. But feelings have been running high, and perhaps a few of us have said things that might have hurt other people.
Dr Bob: It tends to be more civil to talk about how you feel than what someone else did. For example, use an I-statement like "I feel criticized". For more about the wording of I-statements, see:Ally: I am a counselor; I know these things.
And I (underline the word, I) was the one to say what you just said.....above. I....am the one who posted a message about words: Is it necessary? Will it uplift someone? Is it kind, etc.....Does it need to be said? Now?.!?Tamar: I have no doubt that you understand how to word I-statements. I guess the things is… when you said to Dinah that her words were criticism, perhaps it wasn’t as kind and uplifting as it could have been. So that’s probably why Dr Bob was reiterating the importance of I-statements. Again, I’m not trying to criticise you! It’s just another way of looking at it.
Ally: i am a member (for years) of AS--abused survivors, and it is an incredible place of safety, sensitivity and understanding. Never ONCE, has anyone said anything to EVER make me feel criticized. There is NONE of what goes on here......in that group, that is why I was so stunned.
I thought this place would be the same. I am shocked and deeply disturbed (as....a counselor) to see what goes on here.Tamar: I think an important difference is that in online communication we don’t get the visual cues we’d get in real life. So we have to be extra careful with our words.
Ally: This is not a safe place.
I understand why others have left...what a shame. This seems to be a place of criticism, confusion, chaos...and censorship!!
I just left 31 years of an abusive marriage; and am trying to heal.Tamar: I’m sure you realise that many people here are a bit fractured. Some of us were abused as children, some have eating disorders, some have difficult family lives, some find it hard to work. So we’re all in the same boat; we’re all trying to heal. We’re not always at our best (emotionally) but we do try to understand each other’s difficulties.
Ally: This place set me back, but fortunately, beause of my unbelievable resilience in life and my faith, wicked wit AND sense of humor, I have survived and thrived....and I am....an overcomer and wounded healer
This will be my last post....it is shocking to hear you say it seems I "might be becoming a scapegoat".......If you have been reading what has been said to me, why did you not step in sooner?
My triumph over a lifetime of horrfic abuse will be my book: Ghost Child To Triumph (from a child with no voice, to someone who speaks up against injustice in the world)
I have TWO major publishers interested, and am very excited to see what will happen next.Tamar: I hope all goes well with your publishing deal.
Ally: I must leave this chaos behind. If anyone wants to privately e-mail me: wacalice@aol.com
I won't be reading the response to this, or any other mails;Tamar: I’m posting all this in the hope that curiosity will get the better of you : )
Look after yourself Ally. I’m sorry to hear you feel you need to leave, just as I was getting to know you. I’ll miss you. If you decide to come back, I’ll be glad to see you.
poster:Tamar
thread:587729
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20051210/msgs/589111.html