Posted by so on May 20, 2005, at 0:10:43
In reply to Re: The difference between eating meat and rape » so, posted by alexandra_k on May 19, 2005, at 16:21:04
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> Not *my morals*... But I believe there are universal ethical truths that hold for all times places cultures etc...
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> One example might be:
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> Torturing a baby for fun is morally wrong.
>I think you are saying torturing babies is wrong because it's wrong, not because most people think it's wrong. It is a tempting and popular notion, but I don't find it the only way to see things.
It might be that inhumane behavior weakens a society, so immorality is a set of behaviors known by the informed to be threatening to social structures. But that wouldn't be wrong is wrong because it's wrong ... that would be wrong is wrong because it keeps people from getting what they want e.g. stable societies.
I would prefer to live among people who hold against the torture of babies for any reason, and I am willing to use violence to have my way in that particular matter. Nonetheless, I was born into a world where babies are allowed to suffer for no apparent reason, and their suffering can be described as nothing more than "natural", as described on death certificates citing "natural causes". I don't think many of us would conclude, however, that nature is immoral.
All we can say conclusively is that probably a majority of people throughout history have considered it wrong to severely torture a baby for fun, or to let babies suffer needlessly when it can be avoided. Even the legal standard of moral competency -- "able to appreciate the difference between right and wrong" -- relies on society's notion of right and wrong. A person is not found competent to face prosecution because they felt guilty and knew they were wrong, but rather, because they knew society disagreed with their behavior. That is why evidence of concealment of a crime shamelessly committed in secrecy is evidence of comptency to face trial.
To understand the difficulty of saying anything is anything, we first have to understand that our very language is a construct -- something we made up. We can say an object has a certain portion of carbon because we have described carbon, and declared quantities by which it is a consistently measurable concept. But right and wrong, no matter how definative we might hope those ideas to be, are just that -- constructs describing the right or wrong way toward a certain goal. And that goal is something we choose to construct, unless beliefs about a supernatural entity having goals for our lives are in fact truths.
Moral absolutism seeks to prove that right and wrong are as consistent human concepts, if not more so, than are descriptions of the atomic nature of elements. However, there is far less concensus around any morally absolute standards than there is around basic science.
All we can say for sure is that you and I prefer people not to torture babies for fun, and I bet if I see it happening, no matter what differences we hold on other matters, I might be able to recruit you and others to risk mortal peril to assure that we get what we want in that regard.
then back to your meat eating quandry, which I did not appreciate being compared to rape, a stronger stance for person's who have compassion for animals and who care to protect animals would be to cite benefits of not eating meat, which can include the benefits of compassion to all living things. It's not that lack of compassion is bad, but rather, that if we want certian things such as peace among people, we do best to expand our capacity for compassion. But that's only if we want peace. It doesn't make peace right. It's just something we might want. Declaring it right might win a few converts, but it might also alienate warriors, hunters and carnivores. Espousing the benifits of peace might more likely persuade swing voters.
poster:so
thread:498173
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/poli/20050509/msgs/500183.html