Posted by Optimist on October 12, 2005, at 13:55:55
In reply to Re: Selegiline DLPA update » Optimist, posted by Ktemene on October 12, 2005, at 8:49:26
Hi Ktemene!
Thanks for your post. It was very insightfull. I have never heard of anyone else getting relief from Vitex. It's interesting to see someone else with the same reaction. I've heard of others reports that it acts as an aphrodesiac, most likely due to it's pro-dopamine and lowered prolactin effects.
I actually just started taking Wellbutrin SR again today hoping that it would fuel some extra energy and motivation. I was considering going off selegiline, but may try your conconction and see how that goes.
I've officically given up on the DLPA due to it's anxiety elevation and irritability. There's no smoothness to it at all. I got the same feeling on tyrosine.
The supplements I'm currently taking are:
B5 4000mg
B6 (p-5-p)100mg
B12 1000mcg
Folic acid 1000mcg
TMG 6000mg
Calcium 1000mg
Magnesium 500mg
Vitamine D 1000IU
Vitamin C (Calcium Ascorbate) 600mg
Vitamin E 800IU
Iodine 1000mcg
Acetyl-L-Carnitine 2000mg
Acetyl-L-Cysteine 500mg
Vitex 120mg (per day I think, 3 capsules)
5-HTP 100-200mg
Caffeine 400-800mgThe iodine tends to help my back and relieve the muscle tension associated with it. The B5 is for adrenal health and to help clear up my acne. The TMG also seems to help my back. The 5-HTP seems to center me quite a bit and relieve any kind of stressed alarm reaction. I tend to feel more grounded and cool, if that makes any sense.
I have tried sam-e before and seemed to experience a worsening of my back problems. It may have not been related, so I'll have to check it again. I also tried methionine and was having some nasty sulfur burps and I think it was making my back worse as well. The MSM I've tried before seemed to not agree well with me and my joints, and since sam-e and methionine are also sulfur based perhaps that's why I had a negative reaction. I seem to react well to the TMG though so improved methylation seems to be a step in the right direction. Perhaps I'll try another trial with the sam-e to see how it works.
I take so many different supplement at one time it's hard to tell what's doing what sometimes. My discarded supplement list is gigantic. A lot of trial and error based on whatever theory du jour is in vogue with me at that particular time.
Sam-e is also extremely expensive. Your 1600mg per day must cost upwards of 300 bucks a month I'd think. I already spend around 400 bucks a month on supplements/drugs so it doesn't leave much extra.
I have not tried remeron. I've heard it is quite sedating which is the opposite of what I need. I sleep like a baby and always have... never had insomnia in my life so I'm not sure what use it may have.
I haven't tried Kava Kava or Holy Basil. That's something worth looking in to... I've went up to 12 grams of EPA/DHA of fish oil for extended periods of time and haven't noticed much of anything if at all. I've used good quality brands as well.
The drugs I've tried so far are: Effexor XR, Prozac, Wellbutrin SR, Parnate, Selegiline, Adderall XR, and Lamotrigine. I think that's it... oh wait moclobemide as well. It was like a placebo at 1200mg per day.
I had a robust response to the Parnate but it pooped out quite dramatically once allergy season hit. I also had bad hypoglycemia on it as well which tends to magnify my anxiety and depression.
Prozac 20mg was wonderful for my hypoglycemia but I was experiencing some sexual dysfunction on it and perhaps apathy... I'd had to look back on some previous posts.
The Adderal XR was good for energy and motivation but it seems to invoke anxiety to some degree and I felt worse off in social situations. It felt less smooth for me than caffeine. I'm thinking dexedrine would have been a better choice.
I'm curious... if your current regimand is working well now, if it poops out would it not be better to add a mood stabilizer instead of switching to a different med? Perhaps there are some cyclical bipolar characteristic which are contributing to the poop out. I believe there are different variations of bipolar where you can cycle between depressed and normal mood states, just like dysthymia has been indicated as a possible bipolar hybrid.
I was thinking of switching back to a Prozac/Wellbutrin combo and adding some lithium to increase there efficacy, although I may hold off on that and try the wellbutrin/selegiline/5-HTP combo plus lithium. The 5-HTP alone may be enough to support the serotonin side of things without having to delve back in to an SSRI. Lithium I believe also has serotonin increasing properties which may be helpful.
I'm sort of confused as to whether selegiline is causing problems with hypoglycemia with me. My tinnitus seems to be getting worse perhaps. I would like to not give up on the selegiline too quickly though as I have not given it a fair trial yet. It's only when it's combined with DLPA that it tends to increase anxiety I think.
How's that for a novel? :) I'm sure I could ramble on quite a bit more but since I'm at work I'll cut it short here.
Brian
> Hi Brian,
>
> I’ve had some of the same reactions to meds that you have had. For me also Vitex is the herb that helps the most. (And caffine has always been a life-saver for me.) I have been taking 5mg selegiline for about 18 months, and I think it is very helpful, but it does not resolve my depression altogether. A few months ago my pdoc and I decided to add Wellbutrin at a low dose (because selegiline can cause Wellbutrin to become more concentrated in the blood). For me the combination of 150mg Wellbutrin + 5 mg selegiline is better than selegiline alone. Like you, I had tried Wellbutrin some time ago, and increased the dose to the maximum, 450mg a day. At that very high dosage level I began to have side effects, e.g. neck aches, memory problems. And so my pdoc took me off Wellbutrin. But at a low dose with selegiline it is working pretty well. I used to take DLPA with selegiline but I have backed off that recently because of the anxiety and proneness to anger it seems to exacerbate. A couple of herbs that have helped me with anxiety and anger are Holy Basil and Kava Kava. (Someone recommended to me the New Chapter Supercritical Holy Basil, and that is what I use. Maybe other brands are good, I just haven’t tried them.) There is some evidence that both Holy Basil and Kava Kava have some dopamine related activity. Most of the meds and herbs that have helped me affect the dopamine system. Taurine is another supplement that seemed to help keep me stable, and fish oil has helped in the same way. Most recently the thing that has helped me the most with motivation and energy is SAM-e (the butanedisulfonate form). I started taking 1600mg SAM-e in August and noticed an increase in energy and motivation within a couple of weeks. The effect is so noticeable now that I am decreasing the dosage of SAM-e because I am so energetic that it is fueling my anger. (To augment the SAM-e I also take B vitamins (esp. folate, B6 & B12), 750mg TMG and 1000mg methionine.) But I am hopeful that the right SAM-e dosage is what is needed for selegiline and Wellbutrin to have their full effect and put my depression into full remission. I have been waiting to find out whether the selegiline patch will ever make it to market. If it does, I will certainly try that. But if it does not, and the oral selegiline/Wellbutrin/SAM-e combination poops out, I am going to try Parnate.
>
> Have you ever tried SAM-e? How about Remeron? (If antihistamines work for you, Remeron might be a good candidate. Remeron has a huge antihistamine effect.) I’d be interested in hearing about your experiences with other supplements and meds.
>
> Ktemene
>
>
>
poster:Optimist
thread:555597
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050924/msgs/566077.html