Posted by geno on October 6, 2004, at 6:43:47
Hi all, first off, dont let the topic fool you. Both of the topics are books written by two pretty well known doctors, H.Cass, DR. Sahilian, who are Medical doctors, one being a psychiatrist, and the other a regual physicial but specializes in nutrition pharmacology.
In his introduction, his first sentence in his second paragraph, in relation to, when I first Read it, I new that this man is going to help me and he just may be a "Mentor". He states, he always had a fasination of Nutritional supplements and how they effect the brain. This is exactly what I am Like. In reality, I may have a bit of a "problem" because i must be online or reasearching 10 hrs a day on this. ANd let me inform you, between Supplements, such as bodybuilding supplements, Regualar supplements like Amino acids, Herbs, Botanicals, Phytochemicals, Minerals, Water!, B-Vitamins, Auyruvidic medicine, sorry if i did not spell it properly, but its more so easert medicine, adaptogens, and esp Smart Drugs and Nootropics, plus more i cant think of at this second, all have physiological and neurochemical properties, or shall i say pharmacologic properties.Im apologize if this post is quite long, but being that is sorta in a special forum, ill post it. First, And ill will try not to get to indepth with this iformation, and i must repeat this information i post is from these doctors and or research. So , in no way or how, am i "perscribing or telling anyone to switch to or take natural substances, without consulting with a doctor.
I like to make it easier an classify say the top 5 nutrients which either bind, reuptake or release the 5 main neurotransmitters. Serotonin, Dopamine, Norepinephrine, Gaba, Acetylcholine, and Yet Opioid.
Lets Take Norepinephrine. NE, which is a catacholamine like Doapmine, although is neurochemicaly different, though more similar than seratonin. NE, are basically to make it easier, AMINES. SUch as OCtopamine, Synephrine, Ephedrine, Hordynine, even some Amphetamine, which releases NE.
But briefly Norepinephrine, is an energizing N.T., but unlike dopamine, does not cause "euphoria". Its basically is fight or flight systsm, in the part of the amygdala. Norepinephrine and epinephine are released when one is alarmed suddenly. Now without getting into Biology, You have Norepinephrine receptors and subreceptors, NE 1 , NE2, ALpha 1 and ALpha 2 Nor, and Beta 1 and Beta 2. The Beta is moresoe help in weightloss.. The ALpha 2 Norepinephrine or NEa2 Reupate bloackade, will cause more stimulation , Raised H.R. Blood Pressure, Libido Increase. Supplements Which effect the NE system, are Yohimbine, Synephrine, Octopamine, L-Phenylalanine, (amino acid). Caffiene, etc.
Finally, on NE, Recently NE increasese or Reuptake blockade from drugs like Sraterra or Desipriamine, but Straterra is more "adjusted for ADD, due to the fact, it does not cause raised H.R, and and Blood pressure, It does have an impact slightly in my opnion for ADD, due to the fact of dopamine release, but not release of DA in the same area of which amphetamine releases it. Also Ne release is slightly different from desipramine in the neurochemical reuptake
system. But in my opinion and not to talk about drugs in
this forum, but overall Psychostimulants are the main and
top drug for ADD, though depending on the type of ADD or ADHD. Now, nutrition wise, IF you suffer from Depression , or ADD, and want to effect Norepinephrine, i would suspect that this neurotransmitter would not sufficiently help much, except for persons with lethargic depression or Unmotivational ADD, TYpe 2, which is a symptom.
Now the last statement, pertained ot Norepinephrine and natural methods. As i stated before, Nutritional Supplements are not fully researched and may not cross inot the blood brain barrier , unless taken with another nutrient, such as B-vitamins, or other substances, and yet may still not penetrate the brain. Now , Also, everyones brain chemistry varies. So if for example, L-Phenylalanine, helps me very much for ADD effects, another may have bad side effects. SO just to keep this in mind.THe next Neurotransmitter we will speak about is Dopamine. Now i will not get into the full aslpect of this N.T, because it is very complex, and has different neurotransmitter sites. But what i can say is that one part of the brain which is related to "reward" is the Nucleus Accumbens". Unknown if dopaminergic supplements effect this area, but, drugs such as Amphetamines (adderall, dexedrine, Ritalin,) and Opioids and alcohol. Now , There is a supplement called (dopa Bean) which is a natural form of L-Dopa, and studies show that this nutrient acts better to raise brain dopamine without the side effects of L-Dopa. But again, It not 100 percent sceitifically sure if it effects the Nucleus accumbens, though some articles do state so. As for L- Tyrosine, Mucuna Prurriens(dopa Bean), NADH, Phosphitydlserine, which actually increases both dopamine and acytlcholine , primarily do cross the Blood Barrier, but may not be as effective in the short term as drugs. To name 2 or 3 more dopaminergic nutrients, i would have to say, that L-Theanine, suprisingly , a gaba enhancer, does increase DA levels slightly and COQ10 prevents the breakdown or loss of dopamine, while St. Johns Wart blocks the reuptake of Dopamine ( and other N.T.) and may have slight MAOI properties. ALso , Another substanced called Same, which is not a drug nor a herb, but a substance which has to do with the reduction of homocystine in the brain, which is basically toxic. Its unknown or shall i be safe to say that the exact mechanism of action is not 100 percent known, at least to my knowledge, but SAMe, does increase dopamine,Serotonin and Melatonin Levels. Primarily, Dopamine levels are raised moresoe than the others , and advised not to take SAMe if you suffer from Bi Polar disorder, or severe anxiety or psychosis. Last, there are other nutriens that do increase dopamine secondary to other neurotransmitters, but i feel that primary methods are the best way to go when it comes to natural means.
Gaba, The Brains "braking System" , which slows down the excitatory Neurotransmitters Da/Na. There are Gaba Neurons on both Dopamine and Norepinephrine Sites, and one study iv research showed that one person who was abusing amphetamine type drugs, desensitized his Gaba Receptors on the Da and NA targets, thus, had a very bad withdrawl syndrom, mostly anxiety ridden. But, moreso, Gaba Medicaion like Xanax or Klonopin work on the Gaba (a) Neurotrasmitter receptor, slowing down the release of Norepinephrine and to a lesser extent DA. Natural Gaba enhancers, seems to be popping up alot, due to the daily stress increase in daily living. First and I will briefly name 5 top substances which increase Gaba and also may be used in conjunction or lowering of the benzodiazapine medication, though this is just opinonal and some doctors who are perscribing both drugs and Nutritional Substances, do this. First, Kava Kava, which is recently pulled off the shelf due to possible liver damage, secondly a substance found in green teak called L-Theanine, which actualy binds to Gaba and increases dopamine. THird, a substance which is tooted as a smart-nutrient, called picamilon and also phenibut, both natural but very effective as alot of trials and overseas contries use. Passion Flower and valerain Rt help anxiety and also one fall asleep.
Now if somone is suffering from a severe panic or anxiety disorder, i would say , tht these natural means woudl not work , esp like Benzos, but asking your medical doctor if you can take these if you are on meds.Serotonin, the chemical responsible for mood, appetite and sleep texture, is well known due to the SSRI'S medications. But, two amino acids called L-Tryptophan and 5HTP, are both precursors to Serotonin. ALthough the difference between the two are as such, L-Tryptophan is made naturally buy foods we eat, Asp carbohydrates, and MIl. Then L-Tryptophan is converted into 5HTP and 5-HTP is a precursor to serotonin and readily crosses the blood brain barrier into serotonin with the aid of B-6. Also , the dose of 5-HTP is 1/10 less that L-Tryptophan dose. Dosage for 5-HTP is 50-200mg, and the dose for L-Tryptophan is 1000mg-2000mg. Which one is better? Well, L-Tryptophan should be taken alone or with a light cabohydrate meal , because it would have to compete with the other amino acids if you ate protien. With 5-HTP,, this problem does not occurr, but possibly 5HTP may need an enzyme in the intestine to help convert, but as of this second, im not too sure. In a long shot opinion, for example, if one was taking an SSRI , say lexapro 20mg. He or she , could possibly lower the dose to 10mg and add either of these nutrients, due to the fact, logically thinking, L-Tryptophan and 5-HTP make more serotonin available in the presynaptic nerve to be released and thus more Serotonin to be reuptaken. And another drug like, I would say its more of a smart-drug, Tiameptine, an overseas medication, actually is a selective serotonin reuptake releaser, which means it actually releases serotonin and blocks the reuptake. DOpamine also has a similar medication, non approved, called Amineptine, which both releases dopamine and blocks the reuptake of Doapmine esp in the Nuscleus accumbens. Some users say that Tianeptine resembles a very low dose of MDMA, and Amineptine is like a low dose of cocaine, although both drugs are non-neurotoxic and are more depression suppressing.
Well lastly, and I have to make to make it quick, Acetylchole , which is responsible for Memory and cognitive, properties, supplements such as Vinpocetine, Phosphytydlcholine (lethecin) , DMAE, NAHD, and Acetyl-L-carnitine increase acytylcholine. A herb called Huprazine A actually blocks an enzyme aceytlcholinerase which actually kills achytylcholine Neurons. Both ALzhiemers, and Memory problems are being studied and these substances are being used, often better than drugs.
Last, Opiates. Mu opiate Receptors are primary binding site for pain control, euphoria, addiction , well being. Kappa Opiate receptors are used when drugs like suboxone are administered for detoxification because its a kappa Antagonists, Delta Receptors and ORL are 2 other receptors which are more soe responsible for Brain Endrophans, and enkephelans. But more studies on this is needed.
Finally, there we have it. Another long post, but not to be a Mr. Mind Man, LOL, print this out and refer to it, if you see similar or have similar problems ; THese substances I just listed are probably not even 1-10th of the substances for health and probably another 30 substances, esp smart drugs to experiment with.
NOTE: IF i per say had a sick or dying relative, and I would definately attemp to help them with a few natural supplements. WHY? Because I have been approached wheile working in a vitamin store by 2 older women, in there 80's and told me, in exact words" were both 82 and we feel 52, We take all these herbs and such, esp a product called essex tea which cured cancer for one of them and also it cured cancer on another person, if you get it in typme.
Remember, the above advise is my research from various books, mainly by 2 well espablish nutritional doctors. If you can , and this is very true in my book, can through trial and errow, take lower amounts or even lower your dose of meds, and add supplements, a double wammy, your chances of improvement would be much greater. But until one does such, or just because one study says something, i always back it up with another. But there are a sleect few sites, boards (like this one) and research papers, feel free to email me or post, but please not posts that are negative or not informationalal, but questions i dont mind at all.(not to be like an administrator, but it aggrivates one if someone posts to another, esp if they are having a problem with a med or health, and the person basically tells them that there wrong, or there not doing this or an addict and does this or that. This board is very very informational, and learned more on this board than any board fo rmental health than any p-doc or doctor did. I actually leaned most of my meds on this board and downloads from maybe 1 or 2 other sites and For someone suffering, or needs advise, even if the person has no direction or money for a doctor, there are alot of people on here who know there stuff and can really really help. IV been studying nutrition, phamacology , and medication regiments and more.
But thee 3 main things to remember with nutritional supplements. Not all work the same for each person, different people have a different chemical makeup, or some people dont need or take the wrong suupplement or not enought of it for there problem and fail.Ya iguess this will be my last long long post. But if anyone out there is interested in ilke oening a shop for vitamins and alt meds, i have a great idea. Make the design, so you have a section just for the mind, and sit down with customers and help them, then build up a client base and possibly charge a fee for a total package, for inluding a workout, (get certifired as a trainer) and never tell anyone never that for example St.Johns Wart WILL cure your depression, or this or that product will cure this or that. Thata a no no. More like, mam or sir, this procuct here is well know to aid in depression and has several properties , but check with your doctor first always and then make sure the person who you speak to knows there stuff. Last but not least, refer to a journal of herbal or supplements drug combo intereactions and doses.
MIND MUSCLE!!
poster:geno
thread:399502
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040928/msgs/399502.html