Posted by Lou Pilder on February 14, 2014, at 15:14:39
In reply to Re: The Hsiung-Pilder discussion, posted by Dr. Bob on February 4, 2014, at 3:58:53
> > > The aspect of that you want me to post a repudiation to the first part is something that I do not think is my responsibility to do.
> >
> > OK, I posted my response.
>
> And deleted it when I saw it was on the Medication board, not the Faith board. And that redirecting it had come up, and that I'd already posted a PBC.
>
> --
>
> > > Save yourself first. Jewish people convert to Christianity all the time.
> >
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130903/msgs/1055904.html
>
> > There we have what could be thought by a subset of readers as me being pressured by the poster to adopt another faith. And also a subset of readers could think that Judaism is being put down, and that I am being put down for being a Jew, as Judaism is unable to grant a Jew to be saved, for the poster states to save myself first by converting to Christianity.
>
> I see what you're saying, but IMO that wasn't pressure to adopt another faith or a put-down of Judaism. For one thing, Christian people may also convert to Judaism just as, or even more, frequently.
>
> BobMr. Hsiung,
You wrote,[...For one thing, Christian people may also convert to Judaism just as, or even more, frequently...].
You wrote that in your response to that I wrote:
[...a subset of readers could think that Judaism is being put down...as Judaism is unable to grant a Jew to be saved...].
Here we have the member posting to me to save myself first by converting to Christianity. The idea of {telling a person to *convert* to a religion} can be different from telling one to {*join* a faith-based group}. *Joining* a faith-based group could done by people of no faith, but {converting} implies that one is to change from the faith that they have to the faith that they are being told to take on. The difference here is that I am told to convert to Christianity to save myself, could imply:
A. That I am not saved
B. That changing, or converting, to Christianity offers me a way to be saved that Judaism does not
C. That it could be thought that what the poster writes could mean that Judaism does not lead to salvation but Christianity does.
D. That since the poster did not define what {saved} means here, he could have meant that I could suffer in burning fire for ever and ever, after I die, because Jews can not be saved from The Wrath of God as put forth by popular Christiandom in what they foster as the doctrine of hell, that consigns Jews to eternal torment in flames because they did not convert to Christianity. This is because the poster states to me that not only am I to convert first to save myself, but I am to convert to Christianity, which is greatly different from just converting. This is because he does not define what conversion entails , nor as to what branch of Christiandom thinking the conversion is to be to.
This, then, could mean that a subset of readers could think that the conversion to Christianity that I am being told to do, could be *any* branch of Christianity. And there are branches of Christianity that your prohibitions to me here prevent me from posting about, yet they exist today.
The question is if the statement in question puts down Judaism. {Putting down} is a phrase that has generally accepted meanings to it. The key in determining as to if a statements {puts down} something is to see if the statement criticizes, or ridicules, or insults, or degrades, or dehumanizes, or humiliates, or falsely discredits, lowers the esteem, or leads one to think that what is being put down is inferior to what is in comparison. Looking at what you say does not {put down} Judaism, could mean that you are saying that when the poster tells me to convert to Christianity to be saved, that all of those things that are generally accepted to constitute {putting down} can not be seen in his statement to me here. Yet it is plainly visible that the poster is telling me to {convert} to Christianity to {be saved}. If I was already saved, or if I could be saved by not converting to Christianity and remain a Jew, then could the poster have told me to convert to Christianity? How could that make sense? If the poster wants to post here how that could make sense, then I could post my response to him. Yet in my response, I would need to post what you have prohibited me to post, since it would come from a Jewish perspective as revealed to me. Yet today, this poster can post the Christian perspective in telling me to convert to Christianity to be saved. You say that, in part, Christians convert to Judaism {just as, or even more, frequently}. As to if that is true or not, it does not annul the fact of what the poster tells me to do. And anyway, your claim to that is unsubstantiated here and if you want to post a link to substantiate your claim, you could do so now and I will have the opportunity to respond accordingly. If you are using your claim to justify allowing the post to be considered by you to not put down Judaism, then if your claim is false, could there be no justification for you to allow the statement in question to be seen as supportive?
I would really like to see where you got this claim. For Jews do not seek converts in the manner that Christian groups do, and I know of only a few Jewish sects that even honor conversions and only if they are done in a strict compliance to Jewish law. In fact, many conversions to Judaism are for purposes of marriage which many branches of Judaism do not accept. To say that conversions to Judaism by Christians is done as, or even more frequently, than Jews converting to Christianity as any basis to allow what when I read the statement in question I feel put down, and if your claim is false, then I am asking you to take this opportunity to post a refutation of your claim and accept the fact that I feel put down as a Jew when I read not only the statement in question, but also when I read that the statement is not sanctioned in part because of your claim here which I am asking for you to validate.
Lou Pilder
poster:Lou Pilder
thread:1050116
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20131217/msgs/1060682.html