Posted by alexandra_k on April 29, 2005, at 21:41:01
In reply to Re: This has been interesting, but I need a break, posted by Minnie-Haha on April 29, 2005, at 12:42:42
> If... The fact is, we can none of us *really* know any other person's intention, even if they tell us what it is.
Absolutely. Our own can be like that too. In these cases it is 'polite' or 'acting in good faith' to assume the most charitable interpretation possible. Why? Because it makes life more pleasant, I suppose. If we assume others have malevolent intent it makes US hard to be around whereas if we attempt to assume that people are well intentioned then WE are easier to be around and we tend to be happier because the world (and more especially the people in the world) seem more pleasant.
>There are those here who think the behavior we’re talking about is not intentional and others who think it is.
I think that most people think the behaviour is intentional (that it is done on the basis of beliefs and desires) - the point at issue seems to be about what in actual fact the intention behind the behaviour is.
>If it *is* intentional, then the poster will not curb it unless something compels him to. If it is *not* intentional, and the poster has seen and heard repeatedly that the behavior is offensive, then he will stop it on his own if he cares how others feel.
Ah. So by 'intentional' you aren't really talking about the behaviour - but rather whether the poster intends for other people to respond by feeling offended.
I guess I disagree that the 'behaviour is offensive'. Rather - it is an undeniable fact that some people feel offended by the behaviour. What is the difference? Well, I am not offended by the behaviour. Maybe the difference is that I do not believe that the poster intends for other people to feel offended.
A little bit of evidence for that is that the poster does not seem upset when people are not offended. I dare say he much prefers it when people are not offended with his posts. That seems to give some support for the hypothesis that he does not desire to cause offense by his posts.
The intention that I summarised before is what I have gathered over the time that I have been here. A combination of what the poster has said himself and of a hypothesis that I have come to based on the way that he responds when people are upset.
>That brings us to at least two possibilities. One is someone who doesn't offend intentionally, but who doesn't care if he does.
Lets say that I enjoy singing a great deal. But that I am really very bad at it. I am so very bad at it that my SO finds it to be offensive in fact. Lets say that one day I sing. I know my SO finds it offensive - but I sing anyway. Does it follow from that that I don't care that my SO is offended? No. It doesn't. It is possible that I realise my SO will be offended and that I do care about that - but that I also have my own needs and desires and sometimes after weighing the costs and benefits I need to do what I need to do. Maybe this situation is something like that in that the poster feels very strongly about what he is attempting to do with his posts - and while he appreciates that some people do feel offended he needs to do what he needs to do.
>The other also doesn't offend intentionally, but can't stop himself from doing so. The former, IMO, is still uncivil.
Would it be uncivil for me to sing?
(I admit the analogy isn't perfect - in fact it isn't very good at all. But do you see what I am trying to say? Just because someone finds someones behaviour to be offensive doesn't mean that the behaviour itself is offensive.)
> > > Well, IMO, if someone is offended by uncivil behavior, they should not have to modify their behavior, but the offender should.But the behaviour itself is neither offensive nor uncivil.
I guess that civility has a fairly technical meaning here... It is a tricky one.
> You shouldn’t try to change who a person IS, but it's OK to ask them to modify offensive behavior.Sure.
>And if they don't, it's OK to exclude them (the length of time depends) from the group.
Once again there is a difference between 'offensive' behavior and the fact that some people respond to certain behaviour by taking offense.
IMO it is actually uncivil to call the behaviour (itself) uncivil or offensive. Because that is judging it negatively. The same with assuming the worst with respect to peoples intentions.
How about:4. Try to come to understand the posters intentions (by using the principle of charity). I really think that if people understood more about where the poster was coming from they wouldn't find the behaviour so distressing anymore. Then it would be easier to ignore - or people might even be a bit more interested in the determinations that are made.
poster:alexandra_k
thread:487910
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050417/msgs/491704.html