Posted by lil' jimi on June 21, 2004, at 1:37:00
In reply to re: thoughts (word count assessment relative) » lil' jimi, posted by spoc on June 20, 2004, at 5:52:24
Hi Spoc,
Earlier I had written:
> > Hi, Mel,
> > Forgive me, but I must ignore your double entendre subject line. We need to keep it administrative here, you know.You have replied:
> <<<< Yes Jimbo, heavens to Betsey (who the h-e-double-toothpicks WAS Betsey anyway)! Remember your "discomfort zone," wherein even innocuous banter about hot tubs is seen to disparage wife, baby, and the institute of marriage. Surely the alarms will be tripped and the dogs let out on anatomical innuendo! ;- )Your wink is much appreciated. I must hope Auntie Mel is not offended. Joking is a delicate thing in the land of "civil". Humor here has to not let anyone feel accused nor put down. There are a great many things which are funny which are not "civil", nor civil.
Please don't say "anatomical".
Ha!> > There is a risk for pB veterans with histories of "civil" violations or even one "civil" violation, when they come into conflict with a newbie .an equal, less-than-"civil" exchange is going to result in unequal sanctions with the vet coming out looking at the short end of the stick. Of course, the vet should have learned better, while the noob will get the benefit of the doubt.>
> <<<<<< Good point. Setting up a difficult but required equation, wherein a vet cannot safely respond in kind to various stimuli, or to be cautious, may have to dilute or avoid a response completely. Ouch (I'm more of a given-context-favoring type). But while it does frame things in a way I can understand better, I would add "Ok, fine. As long as everyone is required to or not to (to an extent greater than that attributable to chance oversights), rather than just some."
>
> So, point indeed taken. But as I gather you are not disputing, other vets do end up reaping for the most part pbcs only, at the point they should have run out long before.I did leave that open to misinterpretation. "Civil"-experienced posters can and do receive PCBs. On my model of "civil", this can happen when the vet's infraction either:
1) Involves a new subject or thread for the vet;
2) Is somehow an especially technical or possibly inadvertent transgression;
3) Or so much time has elapsed since the previous infraction that everyone has forgotten it.
4) The moderator may be feeling flexible?This is where my "A poster’s history determines their rating and details of a poster's history with a specific subject impacts the poster's rating with that subject." includes the part about "a specific subject" see? A new subject can start it's own new poster rating and begin with newbie sanctions for the vet violator.
....
> > > Ya know, you'd think there would have been a psychological study by now on the effect of randomness on the efficacy of punishment! ;- )
> > ... ... the effort to increase consistency has not been seen as a priority.Oh, I think it is a priority.
> > Again, Spoc, I think there may well remain real issues to be discussed about the application of sanctions. But we should be at pains to separate the real ones from the explicable ones. If just to cut down on the distractions.
>
> <<<<< Agreed. And I do see where some of the lines are. For example, regarding your own block, I do see your point about the bottom line being that you indeed did risk having someone end up feeling accused. And no matter if I may feel that that may be excusable at times, admittedly it does open a very subjective door. So I can process that prohibition better (I just like to be able to see the logic in things, but then even more importantly, the consistent application of them). So while at the time of your block, I stated that I had seen "stronger references to the same thing pass muster," I didn't mean that I couldn't understand why you got blocked. Of course I still didn't want you to be unhappy, but I understood what had gone down and it didn't set off my sense of unfairness, except to the extent that as mentioned, I'd seen stronger get under the wire. But that was awhile ago, when possibly there was a tug between enforcement and realizing that when people are freshly shocked they will be more likely to emote, and may sometimes deserve to.I see one of the challenges in trying to assess consistency of enforcement is trying to make these comparisons among different "civil" infractions. It is all too easy to compare apples to oranges. Say a total tyro signs on and proceeds to go off on one of my favorite subjects. This newbie will get a PCB. If I were to say the same thing, I will be banned for 4 weeks. This is fair because I have been warned and banned before about our imaginary subject and the newbie is just learning the ropes. To know how consistent , how fair any given pB sanction is would require a thorough rundown of the given posters' past babble sanctions. I am not vigorous enough to do that myself.
> > Now, are we hearing each other here, Spoc? I can miss some things... lots of things.
>
> <<<<< I believe so. I am in agreement about how you processed your block. And for those same reasons, I wouldn't argue for the reduction of all blocks (again, consistency is my chosen platform here, not whether I condone blocking or blocking for some of the reasons we see, *only* because I doubt we can get everything we'd like to addressed). Even when I thoroughly enjoyed and/or agreed with the statement eliciting the block, and may prefer that some such things be allowed.I hear you. It is imaginable that folks here would see the effort I have made here, maybe decide I'm a nice, well-meaning guy, maybe like me, want to pull for me, whatever, and then read what I post and don't really detect any malicious intent nor attack mentality in an otherwise reasoned argument. I get blocked. It seems precipitious, severe, merciless. And people want me to be cut some slack because I'm a nice guy and I didn't do that much harm.
With my humblest apologies to every one of my sweet supporters, it doesn't work that way here. And, I have a history. And, I have (have had) every reason to know better.
**Could** someone feel accused by what I posted? Yes. *Poof!* I get banned. In the pB Universe, "civil" is that simple.
> I had just initially thought you were speaking in general terms when you came back, that the same sequence and logic could be seen behind all/most blocks or lack of them.
Yeah, I failed to make that clear. I think that offended some of my friends. I can see where that interpretation was possible and I regret that.There are some aspects to this analysis of the consistency of enforcement which are generally applicable. Nothing about anything I said resolves everybody's issues. I'd like to offer them as tools for analyzing issues of enforcement fairness. They may not work. But they have resolved any controversy about my blocks.
But these tools not only fail to be any absolution for unfairness issues in any general terms, but there may well be issues about fairness at babble that my consistency analysis does not address at all.
There is much to be done yet.
> Thanks for clarifying. And again, having at least a layperson's grasp of reinforcement and the honey vs. vinegar principle, I want to reiterate my appreciation for the recent proof that change is possible, and my intended faith in what that will mean generally.
excellent!
>
> > i think you are right.
> >
> > ~ j
>
> <<<<< And I think you are brilliant and astute. ;- )
>
> Good to see you, and you take care too! :- DYou're going to have to teach me about the emoticons. I have always avoided them before. Thanks for your compliments. You flatter me.
see ya,
~ jim
poster:lil' jimi
thread:346427
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040527/msgs/358480.html