Posted by bleauberry on January 11, 2014, at 12:34:13
In reply to Re: Suicide Attempt - lysed bacteria? » bleauberry, posted by SLS on January 11, 2014, at 9:48:49
Good post Scott. thank you for your thoughts.
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> Okay, one toxin is a good start. Thanks.
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> The toxin I am most concerned with in my own body is Quinolic acid,
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> Do you happen to know how quinolic acid affects the brain adversely?not really, except I saw some vague thing at pubmed where it was shown the toxin binds to opioid receptors, and another one that showed how they bind with serotonin. Either way, bad news and a bizarre clinical presentation which "appears" psychiatric but is in fact not.
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> > There are pubmed articles that indicate how toxins have affinity with opioid receptors, which would obviously have indirect negative effects on dopamine and norepinephrine, and the resulting psychiatric symptom manifestation would not be a surprise.
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> Interesting. Thanks.
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> Pretty much any of the popular internet LLMDs
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> What are LLMDs?It is not a formal term, but sort of a nick-name for MDs who have a particular specialty and passion in treating Lyme disease and similar diseases that look like it. I've had 3 LLMDs. Two of them had Lyme themselves and that is where their specialty took hold....they experienced the insane suffering in real time themselves....and they overcame it....and it didn't happen with limited CDC guidelines. The other one became fascinated early in career when it was observed that pain/fatigue patients were getting better on antibiotics that had been prescribed for other unrelated reasons. For example, a Fibromyalgia patient got a tooth infection, prescribed antibiotic, and stuff happened far beyond the teeth. I guess the doc saw enough of this "pattern" that he dug deep into research, history, MD blogs, MD conferences, Lyme conferences, and such, and became an expert out of passion for the topic. In other words, antibiotics were unintentionally healing pain/fatigue patients better than the commonly accepted treatments. He put 2 + 2 together and it all made sense. He and another LLMD both told me, with sureness and conviction, that most depression patients actually have Lyme disease. To me, that was unfathomable. Insane. Impossible. Ridiculous. Left field. Out there. The problem is, I have come to see that what they said, is true. It just is not common knowledge or generally accepted, so that makes it really hard on both MDs and patients.
LLMD stands for Lyme Literate MD. Most are not. Most do not know anything more than what they learned in school, what they were told by a pharmaceutical rep, what they read in a journal, etc. All that stuff is but a smidgen of what Lyme disease actually is.
I had a D.O. work a sore hip a while back. We were talking and he seemed to be a treasure chest of information on treating Lyme disease. He even suggested a particular antibiotic that I asked my LLMD about on the next visit and I got it and it was helpful. I asked that D.O. how he knew so much. He obviously knew a lot more than the average garden variety MD on the topic of Lyme disease. Asking him where he learned all that stuff....a conference?....special training?....he said he learned it all from his patients. That is sort of another example of what I meant about the difference between the scientific world and the real world. Real world = clinical world average people.
Not a single LLMD in my State. I have to travel out of State for my appointments. Even in that State, there are only 6 of them.
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> I imagine bacterial endotoxins affect the brain and various CNS chemoreceptors. It may be that the malais and nausea attendant to a systemic infection is the direct effect of these endotoxins along with brain inflammation.Absolutely! Bullseye! You said it better than me. You don't need to imagine any more however. It is real. Dangerously real.
>However, that is not to say that bacterial activity is the etiology of the majority of cases of mental illness.
Well, on the surface, I sort of agree with you there. But again, it was the two experts on the front lines who do this day in and day out, that told me that. With conviction. Until somebody can prove to me that what they said is false, I accept it as true simply because everything my eyes see in the world and on the net supports their claims more than it refutes them. And actually, it is really hard to find anything to refute them. That's because it is uncharted waters where nobody is doing any looking except the front lines guys.
My own depression convinced me. If someone had told me, back in my zyprexa/prozac days, that a variety of antibiotics were going to revive me better than the mood drugs, I would have laughed so hard. That's just not possible. Oops. I was wrong. Searching through all sorts of forums and blogs, there are a bunch of people just like me. So while I often feel like the lone sheep, I'm not.
> Let's try this again:
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> WHAT ARE THE CLINICAL INDICATORS DESCRIBED BY DANIELJ THAT LEADS YOU TO YOUR CONCLUSIONS REGARDING HIS SON?Oh man, hard to describe. It's not so much any one particular thing, but the whole big picture. And maybe due to my own journeys I have gained some sort of instinct or skill at recognizing subtle clues that are usually glossed over or not seen at all.
As an overall approach, if someone has been in psychiatric care for more than 10 years, and it is bad enough that suicide is real risk, I cannot help but think....the problem is outside the box....so the answer is also going to be outside the box. I ask myself, what could possibly mess up the brain so bad? And why in the prefrontal cortex? And, if none of these drugs....serotonin ones, NE ones, DA ones, combinations....if all of them missed the mark, then we are clearly dealing with a situation not related to a supposed chemical imbalance. It's something else. The failed drugs told us that. We already proved it. Don't stay stuck in a game that is losing hand after hand...change the game because we are in the wrong one. That's the way I see it anyway. For me, that game change did not come until after about $35,000, 15 years, a dozen or more MDs and specialists, hospital stays, and ECT. Prior to that, I was a die hard, hard core, medication guy. Meds only. Anything else is bogus. That's where I was.
Hey Scott for me to go see that post again and examine the symptoms again to further figure why I said what I said, I would have to click off this page and start all over! Yikes. I will do that in a separate response.
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> Please be specific. You don't have to reply to this post at all, but direct answers to direct questions will advance greatly the worth of this dialectic.
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> > To many people, all these different diagnosis and symptoms look pretty much the same all under one blanket....
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> Not to this person.Your experience and research is extensive.
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> > for example depression is depression is depression, right? Well, no.
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> This is manifestly true and noted by medical science for over 30 years. Please don't lecture me in a condescenting way.That's what sucks about forums. I was in a good mood and smiling with friendship in an engaged fun conversation when I wrote that.....but you could not see my face....and the words alone on a page can be seen differently. There was zero condescending intended so I am sorry any was perceived.
What I meant was, a toxic depression or infected depression has a particular pattern to it....responds poorly to common meds, antipsychotics work the best in those cases, ritalin, neurontin too...common meds make things worse or don't help....side effects exaggerated....frequent poop out...the need for extremely low doses or the need for extremely high doses....drug sensitivity. Add in there other symptoms such as tremor, joint pains, fatigue, brain fog, and some others, the picture gets more clear.
> Would you be so kind as to name just a few of these powerful clues?
Above are some. Most of us here have them.
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> > No. Science is lagging.
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> You don't think science has looked at infection, toxins, and brain inflammation as being associated with MDD or BD? You would be wrong. It seems to me that it is you who is lagging behind science.No I don't. I have never seen anyone talk about or share anything scientific about, so, no, I don't think they have looked at it, and even if they did, the effort does not appear authentic or thorough. Send the stuff my way. Would love to see it. What do you have?
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> I will disregard the rest of your lecture for now. Let's just deal with the issues listed above.Not a lecture. Well, I guess maybe. The thing is Scott, you have a way of making me feel like I have to sell something or defend something or prove myself to be worthy in your eyes. And then what happens is....yeah, I get defensive, I get sensitive, and I go to town defending myself, and it looks like a lecture.
Respectful debates never get to the point of lectures. You and me both need better control of our words.
Disclaimer: IMO
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> Thank you.
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> - Scott
poster:bleauberry
thread:1058186
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20140104/msgs/1058302.html