Posted by g_g_g_unit on September 1, 2012, at 7:02:53
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » g_g_g_unit, posted by SLS on August 27, 2012, at 17:08:57
> > > > How is it not possible to compare yourself to the achievements of others?
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> > > It is difficult not to compare. Perhaps it is not such a bad thing to compare, as long as you don't judge yourself critically as a result of that comparison. Perhaps "acknowledgment" is a better word to use than "comparison". It would be unrealistic not to acknowledge the achievements of others. It would be equally unrealistic not to acknowledge your challenges and your own achievements in working with them. Acceptance is difficult, but healthy. However, denial can be dangerous when realization hits. It can lead to episodes of suicidality. Discovery is also important. It is helpful to discover what it is that you *can* do.
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> > Yes. I sometimes operate in denial, and can very easily be drawn into states of suicidality when more functional people (usually viable vessels for my own idealized self-projections) enter my orbit.
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> That is TOTALLY understandable. I am still confronted with this challenge, despite my attempts to understand and accept my illness and how crushing it can be upon my ability to function in society. For many years, I was consumed with these negative thoughts. I sometimes resent certain people for their success in society. This is not very attractive. I have achieved a great deal given the debilitating illness I am handicapped with. However, I want more from life. I deserve more. I want to succeed in society, too.
>Like Eric said, you deserve more. I've never underestimated the extent of your suffering and I think the patience and persistence you've shown is inspirational. Given your IQ (or what is demonstrable online), what you've had to contend with (and likewise been robbed of) is a tragedy. I've seen a sad, similar degeneration in myself. As ugly it is, sometimes it's impossible to contain my resentment and envy towards others, and I would be more surprised if you didn't habour such sentiments.
> > It is wretched and humiliating to both withdraw from and to be in society. It becomes a double bind. I would hate to denigrate your suffering Scott, but do you think that perhaps there's been some social shift which has made it even more difficult for people of my age/generation (I'm 26), given how materialistic and narcissistic (in a morally neutral sense) current youth culture is, and the greater opportunities for self-actualizing, leisure activity, etc. (i.e. less emphasis on family, trades, people marrying later, etc.)?
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> I feel that I would have to be immersed in society to a much greater degree than I have been in order to judge such things. My only exposure to the world of the younger is through what I see on CNN. I'm sure there are reasons why you feel the way you do. It is quite possible that you are right about there being a social shift. I am just very reluctant to judge youth. I can't possibly understand fully a generation that I am not a part of. I was barely a part of my own.
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> > I am only speculating, and don't want to compare myself to you. Maybe I am wrong and things were equally difficult when you were my age.
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> I fully appreciate your sentiments. I doubt that things have been equally difficult historically. I don't think I had such a difficult time with the sort of things you describe. Things seem so pressured and competitive now.I think you're right about things being so pressured/competitive right now.
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> > > > I'm probably just being narcissistic.
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> > > I don't understand how you could come to this conclusion. I don't see narcissism in you. Quite the contrary. I'm not a psychiatrist, though. Perhaps I am missing something.
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> > I was told I have some kind of narcissistic personality disorder by a therapist once - I forget the phrase, but it was a subtype that involved more guilt and inner conflict.
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> Inappriate feelings of guilt is actually a well-known feature of depressive illness. Being young and so intellectually intense is bound to produce inner conflict when one is depressed. Perhaps you are narcissistic, but I don't believe that the presence of guilt and inner conflict is sufficient to indicate narcissism.
>Sorry, it wasn't based exclusively on the presence of guilt/inner conflict. I think the subtype (covert Narciccism, if I remember correctly?) involved inner guilt/conflict over harbouring genuine narcissistic sentiments. Anyway, the therapist in question made the diagnosis based on a screening questionnaire for Narcissism I had to fill out -- again, that might sound unprofessional, preemptive or whatever, but she was a well-regarded academic who specialized in personality disorders, so I never really challenged her diagnostic 'method'.
> > I guess I see it in my constant desire for external validation and recognition of my achievements/suffering, envy towards others, the rage, bitterness and (often) inability to see others as something other than projections of myself.
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> Perhaps you were not validated by your parents when you were a child. You might not have been nurtured. Maybe you were teased or bullied by peers. You may never have had the approval and praise of anyone during your formative years. You may have been ridiculed. It makes sense that you would have developed as an adult to always be looking for validation and approval. You would always be in your own head. However, this is not the same as narcissism.I was not validated by my parents, you're correct, and I was bullied. I assumed the constant desire for validation/approval was an aspect of narcissism, or does that involve the constant validation and approval of an idealized narcissistic 'self' that one has created?
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> > Maybe those are natural responses to extreme illness and suffering.
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> Probably. However, your depression may also have been precipitated by the sort of chronic psychosocial stress I mentioned above. Both can be true in the same person. Once triggered in a biologically vulnerable individual, depressive disorders can be self perpetuating.
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> > he said 'narcissism' is just too multi-faceted, dynamic and intrinsic to depression to be boiled down to a pathology.
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> That's a bunch of crap.Sorry, I really don't mean to paint a bad picture of my psychiatrist. I really do like him and treasure his insight. I think he was trying to deflect away from my increasing obsession with 'labels' (i.e. the narcissistic one which has hung over my conscious ever since that aforementioned therapist diagnosed me) and suggest that narcissism might occur on a spectrum, or that everyone might exhibit 'narcissitic' traits at some point. I think what he meant was that it might colloquially be possible to describe (or mistake?) the self-withdrawal and negative introspection prompted by depression as 'narcissitic', but that it didn't make one a narcissist; in other words, he was trying to challenge this static conception I have of myself as a narcissist (in a similar way you are, I suppose).
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> > > > But, as much as I love and respect my psychiatrist, I sometimes hesitate (to put it gently) when he, well, implies that part of my inability to get well derives from a 'lack of effort' on my part, and that, ultimately, man must consign himself to the rule of reason.
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> > > I would LOL if this weren't such a sad thing for you to be confronted with. If the dysfunction in your neurobiology were successfully treated, you couldn't prevent yourself from getting well no matter how hard you tried.
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> > I guess he used it in reference to my inability (or unwillingness or whatever) to challenge my cognitive biases. I must admit, he sometimes uses it as a cop-out (for example, when I complained of feeling less motivation to do things on an SSRI, he linked it to effort), though I guess that goes with his training as a therapist; on the plus side, he is more careful with his approach in terms of (over)medicating.
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> He might be the best practicioner of psychodynamic psychotherapy, but that does not guarantee that he is equally effective as a diagnostician of Axis I disorders or a psychopharmacologist.No it doesn't. But as I've said, I've liked his more careful approach. And when he has been in doubt about something (e.g. whether my depression was uni or bipolar) he did not hesitate in referring me to an expert in the field (since he deals more with ADHD).
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> > I think next time I will need to be more clear about how much I'm suffering with regards to OCD, and how I don't feel it's related to effort (or lack thereof) at this point.
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> Before I lose the thought, I want to mention that Viibryd (vilazodone) might be an interesting drug for you to explore. It might treat depression and OCD at the same time.Unfortunately it isn't available in Australia at this point. .
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> > > > Is all suicide, by default, unreasonable?
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> > > No. I believe in autoeuthanasia. However, it is absolutely true that MDD or BD are mind-altering illnesses that affect perception and judgment. It would be difficult to filter out this neurobiological state to be able to evaluate one's fitness to make such an irrevocable decision.
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> > Perhaps you are right. At the moment, it feels like the most rational thing in the world to me, but I acknowledge that Parnate withdrawal must be playing a part in that,
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> DEFINITELY!Well, tomorrow it would have been exactly two weeks since I stopped Parnate. I presume that means my MAO levels will return to their (depressive?) baseline?
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> > so am just doing everything I can to bide my time until I see him again. Do you think that MDD can affect judgement towards others, i.e. induced mild, well, 'paranoia' about being hated, unwanted, etc.?
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> Yes. I do believe that depression can produce feelings of guilt, persecution, and disapproval along with other intrusive thoughts, especially if there is a childhood history of these things.It's been difficult because I definitely noticed a shift towards feeling more socially hesitant, less included, more alienated from my family etc. as I withdrew from the Parnate.
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> > Because as much as my family are prone to acting like d-bags and enforcing that idea at times, it is that sense of alienation (and my inability to escape from them) which is currently driving my desire to finally just end things.
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> Don't let the negative thoughts, feelings, and behaviors of others determine your decision making process. Do what you know is best for you. Stand alone if you have to. Maintain your intellectual and emotional independence.I try to, but like I say, it can be incredibly difficult (almost insurmountable) not to compare oneself to others.
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> > I have also befriended a girl I'm very attracted to, and while I continue to see her out of loneliness and an emotional closeness we've developed, a lack of reciprocal feeling on her part
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> How do you know?I declared my feelings to her (an extremely difficult feat, as I suffer from social anxiety) and she was evasive; I didn't receive a personal rejection .. she merely said that she had emerged from a really difficult, long-lasting relationship several months ago (which is true). But I suppose I felt somewhat cheated in the sense that I was never addressed personally .. she fell back on a kind of generalized response, rather than telling me whether she was attracted to me personally or not.
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> > has left me feeling even more ashamed and worthless because of my affliction.
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> Has she told you that your affliction is the reason for her not wanting to become more deeply involved?No, that wasn't the reason she gave, so I know I'm being irrational. But I guess the rejection exacerbated the general alienation I already experience as a result of my condition.
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> > I wonder if her presence in my life is ultimate worse for me,
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> Very possibly. However, I know what it is like to want to maintain a relationship out of loneliness, despite a lack of healthy feelings of affection and commitment.That is the extremely difficult decision I have to come to terms with .. whether to continue the friendship despite my yearning, as we do have some kind of emotional closeness regardless. I guess I don't feel like I'm in a position to make sound judgments right now anyway .. my mood has been very labile due to the Parnate withdrawal and I think I've been taking everything extremely personally, or been far more sensitive to (perceived?) rejection.
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> > but I guess that's a complicated issue, and probably something for another thread ..
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> Perhaps you can take advantage of the Psychology board. There are some very smart and caring people there.
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> > > > If you fail to accept an illness that compromises your ability to self-actualize,
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> > > I LOVE your statement here. It is almost impossible to self-actualize and experience the joys of peak experiences in such states. Depression is a thief.
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> > Well when it becomes ongoing for long enough, the inability to self-actualize isn't restricted to those states. I am having difficulty coming to terms with the idea that perhaps my life will always be defined by a battle with depression, OCD, ADD, that it's time I gave up on my dreams, because while I'm still young, I've missed out on so much integral career time/experience in the field I once loved and dreamed of working in. I do not have the body of knowledge that others have.
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> I understand.
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> :-(
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> > Please excuse me if this is too much information,
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> Actually, I feel priveleged that you should want to share so much. Your post allows me to understand you better - and like you more.Thanks. I appreciate the sentiment.
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> > I always take your encouragement and praise so personally. My own father has always been really emotionally distant and unnurturing.
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> You are a wonderful person who goes out of their way to nurture others. How could you possibly be a narcissist? Does your personal research into narcissism indicate to you that you are?I don't know. I see it in my mother and her mother, so wouldn't be surprised if there was perhaps a genetic predisposition. But I also believe that dealing with chronically high levels of anxiety and ongoing depression has perhaps exacerbated any narcissistic tendencies, as it becomes difficult not to retreat into some fetishized ideal of myself which I try to pursue or nurture, sometimes at the expense of seeing others' pain clearly or gaining a realistic picture of myself and my abilities. I think psychodynamic therapy has made me far more empathetic, however, and allowed me to tame those instincts somewhat. I have only researched the issue superficially, but what I have read on narcissism did feel like it applied to me, to some extent at least.
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> You know, it really sucks that you are being given such unsupportive messages by your psychiatrist. It is just one more instance of your not getting the validation and praise you missed a child.
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> I think you're pretty cool.
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> - Scott
>I don't know. I think I am painting a skewed picture of him, and, like I say, part of it is perhaps my fault for sometimes withholding the extent of how much I am suffering (a desire to appear 'together' or coping, I suppose). I saw his stand-in this week while he was away, who was far more genial and openly kind, but I didn't feel as challenged by him because he didn't evoke the same fear I have of authority/father figures that my current psychiatrist/therapist does. I thought that sense of challenge or transference I guess was an intrinsic or vital part of the therapeutic process. I am still not quite there, but dealing with my current psychiatrist has helped me take a step towards overcoming (or at least questioning the rationality of) those fears.
poster:g_g_g_unit
thread:1023768
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20120830/msgs/1024610.html