Posted by linkadge on July 4, 2010, at 20:48:49
In reply to Re: shock treatment?!?! » linkadge, posted by RocketMan on July 4, 2010, at 18:23:25
>A crap shoot, ya, okay, that explains it. The >part about brain organization and >neuroprotective mechanisms sound official as >well. But you say results "probably".... I would >expect a more definite reasoning from someone >with absolute psychiatric knowledge?????
Nothings official. Thats the point.
>Again, BDNF, another impressive clinical term. >Link, I bet you're a real doctor? Such a waste, >you living your life at this site when you could >be out in the real world, helping millions!
I'm not a real doctor. I am a real science teacher. This is just a hobby. Unless you've got something logical to refute my assertion, why make fun of it??
>I love cheese, so I guess I really was playing >Russian roulette!!!! Then again, I once >witnessed a mouse escape from a trap, it wasn't >pretty, but the last I heard, he went on to live >a normal life, go figure, Micky should have died!
Its one thing to not really care, or understand what I am trying to say, its another thing to just waste your own time. Its a fact that there is high variability of seizure threshold and duration among patients who undergo ECT. Are you suggesting that this has zero impact on the clinical outcome?
>Do you suffer with chronic epileptic fits? If >yes, I'm sorry to hear that. If you don't, why >the hell are you wasting your life away, >researching a bunch of garbage that is >meaningless. Again, it does sound quite >impressive, and I bet many here are quite >impressed with your wealth of knowledge. See, >you are a real doctor!
Its not really meaningless. Knowledge is power. There is a reason why researchers are spending time reseaching the utility of drugs, supplements, antioxidants etc. in the prevention of ECT induced neurotoxcity. Better take some extra vitamin E before the ECT sessions See:
"We have been shown an increase of lipid peroxidation in almost all structures of the rat brain, particularly in cortex, hippocampus and cerebellum, after electroshock-induced seizures and beneficial effects of antioxidant vitamin E on these processes"
http://www.advms.pl/roczniki_2005_supl_1/volumes/21_Artemowicz_B_Sobaniec_W.pdf
Here is a study of the use of the antinflamatory celecoxib for the prevention of ECT induced neurotoxicity:
"Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT)-induced amnesia may arise from glutamatergic excitotoxicity; if so, COX-2 inhibition may attenuate retrograde amnesia with ECT"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18523723
Here is another pubmed article suggesting that the sharp increase in cortisol seen after ECT may lead to hippocampal atrophy:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17072590
"Cortisol levels rise sharply immediately after electroconvulsive therapy (ECT); the resultant stimulation of steroid receptors in the hippocampus may be beneficial or harmful to cognition, depending on the magnitude of the stimulation. Steroid mechanisms may therefore modulate ECT-induced amnesia."
Notice how they suggest that the clinical actions of ECT may be either beneficial or detrimental depending on the magnitude of stimulation (among other factors).
Heres a study linking both the AD and cognitive effects to the stimulus intensity:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10807483
"Furthermore, the likelihood of both antidepressant response and cognitive deficits increased as stimulus dose increased relative to initial seizure threshold, up through 8 to 12 times the threshold."
Here is some data on the "debate" regarding electrode placement, clinical efficacy and memory impairment.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14636387
>100% correct again. Damn, those crazy pdocs >should have their butts sued for malpractice. >Openly frying peoples brains while all the time >having knowledge of such atrocities.... shame on >them all!
Thats why they make you sign a wiaver.
>Hmm, I feel very lucky surviving such a barbaric >torture treatment. I now understand how Micky >felt when he escaped death in that horrific >trap!
Now you're just being extreme. If everything I was saying was so "obviously" false, there would be no need for the over the top sarcastic tone.
>Well then, Mr. Sakiiem should have a recheck on >his scruples. Next time you're talking to him, >you can tell him I lost a boat-load in >the "Magic Bean for Depression" stock. There was >so much convincing evidence that the medication >was a clear winner. Studies indicated thousands >upon thousands of happy mice???
Whatever dude. You've just got your eyes closed now. Why would people be studying drugs with potential to protect the brain from the harmful effects of ECT, if there were no harmful effects? These are real studies by real scientists published in real medical journals. If there were no medical basis for the side effects, there would be no study.
Linkadge
poster:linkadge
thread:953125
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20100628/msgs/953319.html