Posted by linkadge on August 16, 2007, at 14:03:11
In reply to Re: Beta-carbolines and benzos, posted by Quintal on August 16, 2007, at 13:28:52
>It's hard to distinguish between the effect of >caffeine and beta-carbolines of course, but like >you I never noticed this effect with tea >particularly, though that could be due to lower >levels of caffeine.
One could perhaps compare a cup of coffee with a caffenated drink with equivilant caffiene content. I do get anxiety from coffee, but not from caffiene tablets (which often contain more caffiene than a cup of coffee)
>I was curious if beta-carbolines are antagonists >at sub-sets of benzodiazepine receptors and made >several requests to see the original study to no >avail.I had read something from a book called "Drugs and the Brain" by solomon H snyder. He was describing the limited clinical experience with beta carbolines. It was describing the intense anxiety that beta carbolines could produce (not sure about dose) and how the benzo's could act as a direct antidote.
>A quick search on Wiki reveals that beta->carbolines frequently act as MAOIs, so from that >I conclude they must be present in fairly small >amounts or heavy coffee drinkers would be >suffering hypertensive crises and serotonin >syndrome (in heavy coffee drinkers taking SSRIs >for example) fairly oft.
I read a study saying that regular coffee drinkers had something like %50 reduction in MAO-A and B. The propensity of a MAOI to produce hypertensive crisis depends on many factors, but you are right that you might expect serotonin syndrome.
The beta carbolines remind me of isatin. Have you read about isatin? Its some natural chemical that the body releases in responce to stress. It is a MAOI as well as a benzo antagonist.
>I've heard of studies showing higher than >average MAO inhibition among regular coffee >drinkers though. I think some beta-carbolines >are RIMAs so that might explain the a lower >incidence of adverse interactions, in fact there >are no reports of hypertensive crisis or >serotonin syndrome resulting from coffee >drinking as far as I know, so I assume the beta->carbolines present in coffee are either not >MAOIs or are present in such small quantities that they have no clinical effect.The beta carbolines are REMAs with a short half life. I think there are some studies to suggest that regular coffee intake does produce measurable modulation of MAO. I will see if I can find any.
Its interesting because there is some evidence to suggest that combining certain agonists with antagonists can prevent or reduce tollerance.
Some people can tollerate anxiety better at different times in the day. I don't mind anxiety in the morning, but find it very disruptive in the evening. I wonder if one could modulate the bdz system by taking a benzo at night and a good swig of coffee in the morning? There is some evidence too, that coffee can reduce the cognative problems associated with heavy alcohol intake, maybe the same extends to coffee with benzos?
Linkadge
poster:linkadge
thread:776629
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20070815/msgs/776638.html