Posted by yxibow on March 10, 2007, at 17:29:06
In reply to Re: the real issue, posted by linkadge on March 10, 2007, at 16:21:13
> >So two questions arise...One is how often are >people pretty much screwed over (meaning >severely reducing quality of life, I'm one of >them at this point) by these drugs? It's >probably a relatively small number because the >number of people taking ad's is astronomical,
>
> Well, thats the thing. The use of the TCA's was not this widespread. So, we really don't have any idea yet on how the SSRI's are affecting people long term. They havn't been out long enough.SSRIs have been in the lab since the early 1960s (Prozac has its roots in Benadryl) and Luvox was released in Switzerland in 1984. We have about 25 years of experience with the proof of concept of SSRIs and if you trace it to the earliest, we have over 40 years of proof of concept. With the introduction of Prozac here we have 20 years of history of use. That equals to millions of patients times 20 years, which is millions of patient-years of proof of side effects and positive effects and what long term use of SSRIs do.
> This is it. People have worked so hard to establish the efficacy of the drugs, that it cannot be reversed over night.
>
> Its all about giving people hope. If people believe in drugs, then they have hope. Thats why most of us are here, we are looking for hope. Faith in a pill is powerful. Its the kind of thing people would like to belive in because it is whatever you want it to be.
Hope comes from within. It doesn't just come from a drug, but real hope for success in one's life is not something that is only given by a drug or therapy, it is a concept that builds up over time. If you have hope take and run with it.
At the same time, most people argue when will the next big thing in psychiatry be. Well with the idea that "people have worked so hard to establish the efficacy of the drugs, that it cannot be reversed over night.", you will never get new agents to the market. What is the ultimate thing, to reverse all agents overnight so we're left back with lobotomy drills, cold baths, and insulin injections ? I think we'd all implode. Its 2007.
Yes, there have been egregious examples of drug failure. There will always be drug failure. One can complain all sorts of conspiracy theories but at the end of the day, stifling innovation, which by the way I'm not saying is Big Pharma alone -- a lot of good innovation actually starts in universities and government labs and then is sold to drug companies. Some research is done by drug companies alone but its not by means the only route.
Without failures we can't have successes. Of any sort. And this is an unfortunate truth.
As for Breggin, well, I can't even go there, this descends into a please be civil discussion, but what can I say, in my opinion only he contributes far worse to psychiatry than any benefit.
I'm sure we'll have this discussion again, we always do. Its the I want a perfect agent without side effects and long term problems (which don't have to be measured in actual years, patient-years is a medically sound concept.)
And then when there aren't any agents on the market, then there's a complaint argument as to when the next proof of concept will be. With multiple suing and torts and all sorts of things, maybe never. I agree, people have the right to address egregious grievances, but how far can we go?
As for whether the proof of concept that transmitters are changed, I worked for a leading expert in OCD and brain chemistry. This was still in the earlier days of PET scans but it conclusively showed that brain chemical changes occurred whether an SSRI was used, behaviour therapy was used, or both. It didn't matter, electrical changes in the caudate nucleus was apparent in all cases.
So, is everything a palleative and is nothing a curative or vice versa -- I think it lies inbetween. But for me the proof of palleative does at least give me hope that the fight to regain more than 5 years of my life that has been lost to a rare disorder I didn't sign on to -- yes hope gives that maybe it will be more than a palleative. I hope that is the case. Because I have a Somatiform disorder that I only recently discovered that there was even one person on here who had a different form of Somatiform disorder. Longterm Somatiform disorders are more rare and harder to treat. Somatiform disorders themselves are common though -- pseudoseizures being seen frequently in ERs.I don't like the bag of medication that I carry behind me but it helps me get through the day at this point and at least do some things that I used to do before everything fell apart.
And by this point I've taken for granted almost the side effects that have hit my body -- they're awful and I would never have stood them years ago but what can I do? Go back to square one when I was suicidal ? That certainly isn't positive.
These things aren't easy choices -- they're unfortunately "informed consent."
And that's all I can say speaking for myself.-- Jay
poster:yxibow
thread:739762
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20070308/msgs/739957.html