Posted by ace on June 19, 2006, at 21:58:25
In reply to Re: Taking Nardil to the EXTREME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! » ace, posted by Tomatheus on June 19, 2006, at 18:51:19
> Ace,
>
> I know that it probably seems like I'm harassing you at this point, and I apologize if I'm coming across this way.
>
> But ***PLEASE*** ... check your newer bottles of Australian Nardil (the ones that you've been prescribed since your relapse began) to see if they have silica gel inside of them.
>
> All of the older lots of Australian Nardil had a small grayish cylindrical object inside of them. But the bottles with an expiration date of 12/2006 or later (and possibly also those set to "expire" on 10/2006 and/or 11/2006) do not.
>
> The little grayish cylindrical objects inside the older bottles of the Australian Nardil contained silica gel, a substance that absorbs and holds moisture. When Nardil tablets are stored in excessively humid conditions (with the relative humidity being at least 80 percent), the hydrazine in the tablets undergoes rapid chemical degradation (Lovering et al., 1983).
>
> It is my understanding that when aqueous hydrazine is oxidized by certain agents, the ammonium ion is one of the byproducts. The ammonium ion itself it not toxic, but it typically reacts with acidic solutions (such as stomach acids) to form ammonia, which of course is a toxic substance. But the above-described oxidization of hydrazine cannot occur unless the hydrazine is first exposed to either water or water vapor. By absorbing moisture from the air before it had a chance to get to the Nardil tablets, the silica gel in the older bottles of Australian Nardil kept the tablets "fresh."
>
> As I mentioned in a previous Psycho-Babble message (http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20060604/msgs/654250.html), I experienced a month-long remission (my first true remission since my depressive symptoms set in full-force six years ago) when I was taking a specially prepared version of the Australian Nardil. The response that I had was nothing like the euphoric hypomanic "highs" that I had during my "up" periods on Paxil. On the contrary, I felt *just right* in every way. Experiences that were supposed to make me feel good made me feel good, and experiences that were supposed to make me feel sad made me feel sad. Likewise, tasks that were supposed to be simple were simple, and tasks that were supposed to be difficult were difficult. I experienced little to no insomnia, and for the first time ever, I did not struggle to get out of bed after a full night of sleep. I would just wake up as most people do. For once, I finally felt like I knew what it was like to be fully human and to experience the range of feelings and emotions that most people experience. It was wonderful ... and I wasn't euphoric, just extremely satisfied and grateful to finally have the opportunity to live life as it was meant to be lived.
>
> But a few days after I started taking the Australian Nardil from one of the newer bottles without silica gel, I started sweating profusely and developed severe urinary retention (a known effect of ammonia toxicity). A few days later, the antidepressant response that I had been receiving from my specially prepared version of the Australian Nardil was practically nonexistent. As long as I stayed on the Australian Nardil, I was not able to regain any kind of lasting antidepressant effect, let alone full remission.
>
> I know that you weren't taking the specially prepared version of the Australian Nardil that I was taking, but I somehow doubt that it's a coincidence that both of us just happened to start feeling significantly worse on the Australian Nardil within a month's time -- which also just so happened to be right around the time when the first silica gel-free bottles of Australian Nardil were put into distribution.
>
> I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect that as long as you continue to take the Australian Nardil from bottles without any silica gel inside of them, your response to Nardil won't be nearly as favorable as it used to be.
>
> And if I'm correct in deducing that the silica gel in the older bottles of Australian Nardil prevented the hydrazine in the Nardil tablets from degrading into ammonium (and other byproducts), increasing your dose of the Australian Nardil will probably do no good. Sure, you'll get more phenelzine sulfate from a higher dose, but you'll also get more ammonium, which basically means that you'll get more *ammonia* once the ammonium inside the tablets reaches your stomach (assuming that my deduction is correct).
>
> According to Lockwood et al. (1979), ammonia is "highly neurotoxic and, along with other factors, undoubtedly contributes to the development of encephalopathy and coma that is often a terminal event in patients with severe liver disease."
>
> I don't think that it's correct to assume that a dose of 150 mg/day won't pose any health problems. There has not been any research on the effects of phenelzine at such a high dose, and even though a few other Psycho-Babble users might not have developed health problems at 150 mg/day, there is no guarantee that you won't. And even though I can't say this for sure, it's my *guess* that anybody who did take 150 mg/day of Nardil without developing any health problems was probably taking a "fresher" version of Nardil than what you're currently taking.
>
> So ***PLEASE***, for your own good, check the bottles of Australian Nardil that you've been taking lately to see if there's any silica gel inside of them. If the bottles don't have one of those little grayish cylindrical objects inside of them (like the old bottles did), the Nardil that you've been taking since the onset of your relapse is probably not as "fresh" as the Nardil that you took before your relapse.
>
> Now as I said, I could be wrong, but I don't think that "taking Nardil to the EXTREME," as you put it, will do you any good. In fact, I think it might make matters worse for you psychiatrically speaking, and it will probably significantly increase your risk of developing liver failure.
>
> What (I think) you need to do is contact someone at either Link Pharmaceuticals or the appropriate Australian regulatory agency (whatever the Australian equivalent of the FDA is) to see if anything can be done to recall the existing silica gel-free bottles of Australian Nardil and/or ensure that every bottle of the Australian Nardil that's distributed from this point forward has silica gel inside of it. If you need any help in doing this, please let me know.
>
> Ace, I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do, but I strongly urge you to consider what I've written. I know that it may seem like I'm trying to belittle your efforts to go "extreme" with the Nardil, but I firmly believe that the only way you'll ever feel the way that you used to on Nardil will be if Link starts putting silica gel back in its Nardil pill bottles.
>
> Also, if you'd like to e-mail me, please feel free to do so. My e-mail address is tomatheus50@gmail.com.
>
> Thanks,
> Tomatheus
>
> ==
>
> REFERENCES
>
> Lockwood, A. H., McDonald, J. M., Reiman, R. E., Gelbard, A. S., Laughlin, J. S., Duffy, T. E., et al. (1979). The dynamics of ammonia metabolism in man. Journal of Clinical Investigation, 63, 449-460.
>
> Lovering, E. G., Matsui, F., Curran, N. M., Robertson, D. L., & Sears, R. W. (1983). Hydrazine levels in formulations of hydrazine, isoniazid, and phenelzine over a 2-year period. Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences, 72, 965-967.
>
> ==
>
> > Ok guys, this is my last diged effort before i will have to give my best mate Nardil some time off for a break....
> >
> > I'm ramming right up to 150mg/175mg a day.....
> >
> > I have seen an anecdoted of someone using as much as 250+ a day, but ofcourse I can't recommend
> >
> > 150mg will not pose any health problems, just incresed s/effects
> >
> > wish me luck
> >
> > and yes, i am still the Nardil champ!!!!!!!
> >
> > Ace
>
>
Thanks so very very much for this...I'm actually printing this out. As far as I know, the Nardil I take is the same Nardil I took when i started it 5 or so yrs ago (when it had AWESOME results),,,, but, i will ring Link up, with this message in my hands to make sure of the situation. I very much appreciate the time, effort and care u put into that message.Thanks so much friend!
Ace
poster:ace
thread:658595
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20060617/msgs/658927.html