Posted by PsychoSage on March 20, 2004, at 14:11:03
In reply to Re: I've Made A Mess of My Life » PsychoSage, posted by Simus on March 20, 2004, at 10:09:45
> Psycho,
>
> I have greatly enjoyed your posts in the past, but I strongly disagree with you here.
>
> > Maybe you need some buddhism or something to get you off your false ego trip.
>
> This is not encouraging to a depressed person reaching out for help. This only brings more self-condemnation.
>
> > I imagine you've had a rough time, but join the club.
>
> Would you tell a cancer patient that?
>
> > One thing I have learned is that if you hate parts of yourself but then generalize your negative aspects or shortcomings then you quietly hate all people with your same shortcomings, failures and defects.
>
> Some people do, but others of us develop a great compassion for those who battle the things we used to, or still do, face.
>
> > This self-loathing/punishment thing is tricky. You thing you deserve it, but even if you were trying to do other people a favor by beating yourself up and thinking you should just end it all you are hating them and hurting them.
>
> I completely disagree. When I am depressed, I constantly fight self-loathing. But that is because I have always been a perfectionist, and also very independant. I don't beat myself up to do others a favor. I beat myself up because I am not living up to the potential that I know is achievable. I don't hate others. I have a tremendous love for others. What I hate, at my low times, is that I am not what I expect myself to be, for myself but especially for others, and that I have to lean on others who already have their own share of burdens.
>
> I am sure that you are right on target in dealing with your own life, and I am glad that you have gotten a revelation that helped you. But please, please be more careful in the future to consider that what was behind your struggle, with self-condemnation or whatever, may not necessarily be what is behind another's. I know you meant to help. But there was a time in my life that if I had heard those words, it would have thrown me into suicidal mode.
>
>
I am not sure I used the best strategy in addressing Sandyweb, so I guess it was an overly bold shot in the dark. I apologize for that. Nonetheless, my entire intention was to jolt her out of her tunnel vision.The major problem in depression is coping with the seemingly optionless position that Sandyweb is encountering. I applaud
your sensitivity to Sandyweb's possibly flimsy emotional state, Simus, but if she is to hold on then she needs to see what the consequences are of running away and hiding. My intention was to get her to see herself as a part of other people's lives. In essence, her emotions and feelings aren't isolated to herself whether she thinks so or not. If she loathes herself for being financially dependent then she will have an ill feeling towards others like her. She will see her failure in others or she will feel excessive internal criticism about her shortcomings but to that unbearable extent. That may not be a bad thing, but when it becomes disproportionate she will resent herself, resent others, and outcast herself. That is the point. The point is not to outcast herself because it is actually an insult to others. That kind of stuff has to stop. Sometimes thinking oneself as an outcast is as much a function of a false ego as thinking one is god's gift to all of creation. How does a person work out a false ego then? You can't just dump your ego. We need our egos to survive. Therfore, Sandyweb needs a real ego. She needs one that doesn't think she will become someone who will be immune to failure nor someone who is permanently cursed.What will make or break her will be getting out of her state of helplessness after she learns what she has really been doing wrong, what has been wronging her or what she has not tried that is new. It's a vicious cycle, and it's apparent she is immersed in replaying her shortcomings over and over again. If she is having trouble with making the same mistakes then there is an issue with how she appraises situations. Enhanced illusions about how positive life is are not the only and most helpful way to send a message to help someone. False affirmations for many mentally ill people can simply sustain their denial or even fuel a cycling disorder of thinking from hypomanic thinking to depressed thinking.
Depression and stress are distorted or ignorant reactions. Either Sandyweb really has no exposure to the right way to do things or she does, but she just doesn't know how to get it right isn't as important to me as much as the fact that she iwill figure it out herself if she is led to look larger. Come out of the tunnel because you've spent enough time in there.
It's really a tossup when we have so little information, so in a particular moment, Simus, it may be best to exhibit restraint and simply be comforting. However, that is all you will be if you leave it there. Sansyweb will need to be comforted daily regardless, so from my position I feel better sending something else to her.
Simus, If you were to go into suicidal mode because you were told that your emotional disease is characterized by distortions and ineffective responses then that is just indiciative of the degree of your disease. That generalized information is accurate for many, and it is not intended to enforce hopelessness. It is intended not to be a positive illusion either. It is intended to be helpful because she will have to carry them with her and learn to overcome them the very moment she sees them operating.
In context I have no qualms about my general statements about Sandyweb's post because there are a lot of other checks that need to keep her alive. Her family, her professional help, and she are also responsible for what they say and what they do. If my statements alone knocked her out then she was on her way. I was not that harsh.
If you read closely my thoughts are meant to be sobering instead of indulgent in wallowing or positive illusions.
If she survives she will weave her own philosophy of self that will account for her negative and postive aspects and her potential success and future failings.It's a bitter pill to swallow that we are not perfect and that we are going to battle our own minds time and time again. However, Stuart Smalley from Saturday Night Live was the 80s. He had to make a big production out of making those positive affirmations because his negative thoughts were probably just too pervasive and crippling. Those affirmations alone though would have changed his life. They could have set himself up to help change himself by lifting him from despair so he could think clearly, but they alone would have done nothing.
I'd hate to think that people would want to just say things out of habit to me to make that only make me feel better without leading me to being more constructive about how I perceive myself. Sometimes those comforting words in effect give me another false sense of hope and expansion when sometimes I might need a more balanced conception about my own nature and what life is like when you carry a history if disappointment.
Good luck, Sandyweb!
poster:PsychoSage
thread:326123
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20040319/msgs/326441.html