Posted by NoMotic on October 29, 2003, at 16:24:28
In reply to Re: This is what I think causes social anxiety., posted by cybercafe on October 29, 2003, at 0:14:29
> > am thinking along the lines of people like myself who never were all that anxious, then sort of developed anxiety out of nowhere, and you can tell that the shakiness, heart palps aren't due to stress or anything. For me, it was totally out of nowhere and I could pinpoint the problem. Then I went back to my normal self after removing the offending foods and reworking my own biochemistry. Even if its not related to diet directly, the immune system component to depression and anxiety cannot be argued. Cytokines can cause experimental depression in animals... possibly viruses and other non dietary components are involved? Who knows. But it's my belief that in people who were normal then get a mental disorder, the core problem lies in some sort of abnormal immune activation that didn't exist before the disorder.
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> okay so what vitamins/minerals/steroids should we have examined to see if we really are suffering the effects of poor diet ??Ok, i guess I have to clarify. I'm saying nothing about vitamins / minerals / steroids. I know what you're getting at, but I think the evidence I've read to back up my points is well supported. I'm not one of those freaks who puts down the american diet at every chance. What I am trying to get you to do is investigate a few possibilities in WHATEVER mental disorder you have. Accepting there is NO CAUSE for your mental disorder seems unacceptable to me, and I feel you all should be searching for real answers. An explanation like "too little dopamine and norepinephrine in the prefrontal cortex causes ADD" isn't sufficient for me. I can't see why anyone else would accept that answer... unless the medication they take cures them perfectly, in which case, good for you, I'm happy for you. Medication can make me feel better, but what I am involved in essentially CURES me (though dietary restrictions can be extremely tedious!!!), it doesn't just make me feel better. Sorry if this ends up being really long, but I feel it has to be long to get my point across.
I'm sorry if i wasn't clear enough to begin with. I don't necessarily mean social anxiety per se (with regard to my previous posts), but rather the whole spectrum of anxiety disorders. While I'm at it, I'll include depression and attention deficit disorder in the list of things that can be helped by addressing these points below:
Again, the major points: Caffeine, Food sensitivites / allergies (aka immune reaction to food), not enough sleep and hypoglycemic type reactions.
To really feel what its like to be caffeine free, I think it takes at LEAST a week, possibly 2 weeks. Why so long? Your body stops being dependent on caffeine after maybe 72 hours, but the effects, in my opinion, may last for days after the initial terrible 72 of going caffeine free. You can still be suffering from the effects of caffeine induced borderline vitamin and mineral deficiencies. I wont go and say that one WOULD be deficient in vits and mins from using too much caffeine, but rather, a low level of vitamins and minerals can still bring about mild symptoms. That includes B1, magnesium, iron (from tannins in tea possibly), calcium and other I cant remember off the top of my head. My point: it takes more than 72 hours to replenish a borderline mineral deficiency, I think. The poor blood sugar regulation caused by caffeine might not be fixed for a few days after the caffeine dependence is gone, which will effect mental function. Most importantly, though, caffeine indirectly increases cortisol levels via adenosine antagonism. Many studies show this. Cortisol and glucocorticoid increases indirectly increase serotonin reuptake (aka the opposite of antidepressants). So picture this: You have caffeine at 6am, 8am, and 10am, 400mg total. This causes a 350% total increase in cortisol levels. By 6pm, you feel like shit because your body is suffering not only the effects of poor blood sugar regulation, but the effects of enhanced serotonin reuptake and decreased dopamine in the prefrontal cortex. After a month straight of using caffeine in the amounts of 3 or 4 cups per day of coffee, you MIGHT be low in several minerals and vitamins, your hippocampus might have shrunk from too much glucocorticoids being released, your PFC might have low levels of monoamines (again another reaction to excess glucocorticoids), your blood sugar levels might be all over the place, reducing blood flow to the brain and further causing increased glutocorticoids, and finally your overall serotonin reuptake is significantly ENHANCED. For those who know about biochem of the brain enough, you can imagine what this does. For those who don't, caffeine theoretically can directly cause the symptoms of ADD, depression, and anxiety disorders. This is well established in literature that a small % of people get caffeine induced mental disorder. I know there's a ton of people who will disagree with me, but the actual symptomatic effects of what I described above happens to me when I consume excess caffeine, no question about it. My advice for those who want to quit caffeine is this: don't use ANY other drug if you want to quit caffeine. All other drugs can cause cravings for caffeine. And if you do stop, wait a whole week and THEN see how you feel. If you feel no better, why not begin using caffeine once again and reap the benefits of increases in concentration, attention, etc that it can offer in the short term? I use caffeine myself. My point is: be aware of the effects it MIGHT have on you. Investigate the effects it MIGHT have on you. Don't cast away the possibility. Chances are you might realise you DON'T have a mental disorder after all - you just have to be more aware of whats going into your body and be careful with it.
My next point... food sensitivities...One popular theory that gains more popularity with every month that passes that is that depression is actually a disease of chronic sickness, caused by the immune system. How does the flu make you feel tired and worn out? One way is that it causes your body to release chemicals called cytokines that work basically to make your body able to heal itself better. Your body can better heal itself from a sickness via by sleep and reduced activity. Cytokines can modulate brain activity, serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine so that one feels tired, lethargic, bored, and generally just disinterested in everything (symptoms of ADD and depression). In animal models, scientists can create a pseudo ADD and depression by activating certain aspects of the immune system. Interleukin 6 (correct me if I'm wrong) used for Hepatitus C has been proven to cause major depression in some patients. Imagine, however, if one has a condition that causes cytokines to be released in response to food eaten rather than just your everyday flu. The scary thing is, this happens. In my personal opinion, MUCH MUCH more often than we realise at this point in time. Such people have a condition where their intestinal tract is slightly more permeable than it should be, thus letting larger food peptides into the bloodstread, where the body recognizes these peptides as foreign and attacks them. The next step as the body attacks these large food peptides is the release of certain cytokines. One major component of almost every mental illness (please name one where this isn't true if you think of it...?) is the activation of the immune system. I don't know how much I can go further, since this whole post is longer than I thought it would be originally, but basically, I think that increased intestinal permeability (through a weak infective agent) allows food peptides, toxins, and other random antigenic molecules to enter the bloodstream causing cytokine release. Depending on what cascade of immune components are released, one is presented with a variation of the normal mental function. This doesnt have to be relegated to the gut, though. As I said, the flu can cause a depressive like illness, not to mention all those viruses that are potentially involved in Chronic Fatigue Sydrome (cytomegalovirus, epstein-barr, etc). The key point is that immune activation, through whatever pathway, can cause a mental disorder, in my opinion.
All of this doesn't even include this theory... Dairy proteins and Grain proteins break down into Opiates. This is a fact. Whether they are actually taken up into the brain is remained to be seen. Certain small studies (often excluded by doctors and researchers b/c they are small) show that people with mental disorders have significantly larger amounts of these grain / dairy induced opiate peptides in their blood. In particular, autism is one mental disorder (if you will call it that) where doctors + the medical community actually fully accept that a nice portion of autistic cases can be helped w. gluten and dairy restriction. Interesting.
Next point:In a nutshell, lack of sleep increases cortisol levels and stress hormone levels. As explaned in the caffeine paragraph, too much cortisol increases serotonin reuptake, causes lower amounts of monoamines in the frontal lobe and shrinks the hippocampus. Lack of sleep can make one depressed and anxious and my own experience backs this up. How many of you out there can share these arguements with me? I can't say. I suspect a lot more than might seem.
My last point, hypoglycemia. A semi-recent study has shown that chromium can help depression. This effect is indirect and works first of all by enhancing and refining blood sugar regulation. Cells become more sensitive to insulin. Blood sugar levels somehow have an effect on Serotonin 2(A?C?) receptors, and chromium has an effect on the 2a/c receptors similar to antidepressants. Blood sugar levels effect mental status, actutely and chronically. When your blood sugar levels go too low, your body releases catecholamines and glucocorticoids to bring it back up. While effectively bringing the blood sugar back up, your body is left with the lasting effects of these chemicals... lower serotonin, etc etc etc.
Imagine this:
Someone wakes up at 5 am after 6 hours sleep. - already, cortisol levels are a bit out of control from lack of sleep and the body is unable to properly regulate blood sugar. For breakfast, she / he has a bowl of rice crispies. This sends a FLOOD of sugar into the bloodstream, the body overreacts sending a FLOOD of insulin into the blood. An hour later, blood sugar is low, blood flow is reduced to certain key areas of the brain (PFC...). BUT, blood sugar comes back up... through release of stress hormones. Already, we have a 2-fold combo of abnormal stress hormone release: not enough sleep, and food that causes low blood sugar and stress hormone release to bring blood sugar back up. But, the person has a cup of coffee... feels tired 2 hours later again, has another cup of of coffee and another. By lunch, the person has... a bowl of rice thinking its healthy. Bam blood sugar is low again and bam the body has to release more stress hormones. This is probably the average american at this point... however, then the immune system enters the picture and I think this is where things get really ugly. This is where scary terms like "schizophrenia", or "psychotic major depression" start to come into play.
I could go on and on and on... but really, just within the contex of diet + lifestyle, we have neurotransmitter levels under our own control, to a great extent. Involve one in some form of maybe meditation, psychotherapy, etc and your raelly on a roll to recovery, and TRUE recovery, not drug induced recovery... which, again, i dont have a problem with. Its just nice to know some answers to your problems rather than wondering why the hell your DA2 receptors are hyperactive in your PFC and your serotonin 2a receptors are overactive in your PFC. Everyone has different genetics, and everyone's body reacts differently to all these different variable I suggested. One person might get ADD from too much cortisol, while another might develop psychotic symptoms.
Anyway, hope to hear some replies.
poster:NoMotic
thread:273845
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20031025/msgs/274725.html