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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 40. Go back in thread:
Posted by sigismund on October 31, 2013, at 13:32:05
In reply to Re: And off I go again » Partlycloudy, posted by SLS on October 31, 2013, at 8:32:27
>I sometimes confuse disagreement with disapproval or personal attack.
Yes you do, as do I.
>Defensiveness is an annoying vestige of my earlier years.
I learned, rightly or wrongly from bullying at school, never to defend myself, at least directly. Which doesn't mean I'm not defensive.
Posted by sigismund on October 31, 2013, at 13:43:59
In reply to Re: And off I go again » SLS, posted by sigismund on October 31, 2013, at 13:32:05
Actually, thinking of stories we tell ourselves, one I tell myself is that there is a little power maniac in me (if not in you!).
I simply couldn't think of what these stories might be. (This is from PC's post on psych.) Surely I thought I must have some stories about myself.
I have, after all, been complaining for 60 years. I must remember something even if I'm not that interested now.
The sky changes colour very quickly at this time of day.
Posted by sigismund on October 31, 2013, at 13:55:13
In reply to Re: And off I go again, posted by sigismund on October 31, 2013, at 13:43:59
It may not be a story but it is (was) a sentence (now it is 3).
Winning and losing are different but both are unpleasant. Losing is humiliating. Winning is irritating and boring.
The Duke of Wellington said something similar about winning and battle fields.
One day my wife greatly flattered me by saying 'It's so nice being alone with you'. 'Yes' I replied 'And nothing is happening, it costs nothing, it is lovely and you can't buy it.'
Posted by PartlyCloudy on October 31, 2013, at 14:21:21
In reply to Re: And off I go again, posted by sigismund on October 31, 2013, at 13:43:59
> Actually, thinking of stories we tell ourselves, one I tell myself is that there is a little power maniac in me (if not in you!).
>
> I simply couldn't think of what these stories might be. (This is from PC's post on psych.) Surely I thought I must have some stories about myself.These are simply the beliefs we hold about ourselves: I am depressed, I am stupid, I am brilliant, I am worthless, I am incredibly smart. these are all stories we tell about ourselves.
Currently I have a story that I half believe in, that is I am being bullied. i am pretty sure it isn't true, but someone could be happy with me believing this.
> I have, after all, been complaining for 60 years. I must remember something even if I'm not that interested now.
> The sky changes colour very quickly at this time of day.but it is the same sun that rises and sets every day. Our perception changes. It's all good.
Posted by sigismund on October 31, 2013, at 14:46:03
In reply to Re: And off I go again » sigismund, posted by PartlyCloudy on October 31, 2013, at 14:21:21
Here's a story about our social mind these days. A bloke came round to do some tiling. The ranger (a kind of sheriff for dogs and the homeless) had been round to his place and told him to keep his dog in/on his property. The (poor) ranger had been required to tell every dog owner on this country road the same thing. Because a man liked to walk his dog on this road and did not want dogs coming to greet or bark at his dog while he walked it.
I was kind of impressed. We ban plants, now we are taking action against the behaviour of dogs. Each unhappy dog on his own patch. In Cusco people locked their dogs out of the house while they were out, and the dogs just lounged around in the street together.
We're clearly nuts. I live in the sort of area that has signs painted on the ground 'Lose the ego, this is ...........'
Posted by Partlycloudy on October 31, 2013, at 15:29:38
In reply to Re: And off I go again » PartlyCloudy, posted by sigismund on October 31, 2013, at 14:46:03
And we embrace the nuttiness of the situation - because that is what is happening - or we make ourselves unhappy, wishing things would go back to the way things used to be.
That is the philosophy I try to embrace.
Posted by sigismund on October 31, 2013, at 18:19:30
In reply to Re: And off I go again » sigismund, posted by Partlycloudy on October 31, 2013, at 15:29:38
Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens.
Posted by baseball55 on October 31, 2013, at 19:39:21
In reply to Re: And off I go again » Partlycloudy, posted by SLS on October 31, 2013, at 8:32:27
Scott - You did say something to the effect of -- maybe you're not safe here. Which could certainly be read as -- maybe you should just go away.
I like you alot and respect your posts, but think it was an ill-considered remark.
Posted by baseball55 on October 31, 2013, at 19:47:48
In reply to Re: And off I go again » SLS, posted by Partlycloudy on October 31, 2013, at 8:44:15
PC - I hope you and Scott can bury the hatchet. As Sig said, and as we all know, internet forums can get weird. There's no body language or history together to fall back on. People dash things off without thinking so clearly about them. Scott seems to me basically a great guy who wants to be helpful. You seem to me to be a great woman who wants to be helpful.
I hope you will both stay and keep connected.
> SLS, bullying does not make you (who invited me to leave Babble)or me special.
> It makes you look like a bombastic word twisting pug.
> I don't care to enter into a conversation with you, because I've seen at length how you love the back and forth of counting the numbers of angels on the head of a pin. Frankly, that is not my interest.
> I am simply here trying to feel better. Not worse. Feel free to post to me, but I might overlook it.
> pc
Posted by SLS on October 31, 2013, at 21:14:00
In reply to Re: And off I go again » SLS, posted by baseball55 on October 31, 2013, at 19:39:21
> Scott - You did say something to the effect of -- maybe you're not safe here. Which could certainly be read as -- maybe you should just go away.
>
> I like you alot and respect your posts, but think it was an ill-considered remark.Why did you not seek out my exact verbiage?
Scott: "I'm sorry that you feel Psycho-Babble is no longer a safe place to be. You are probably right."
Did it ever cross anyone's mind that I was in agreement with PC?
Nice.
At this point in the conversation, I had no reason to be belligerent.
PC: "Gee, thanks for the vote of confidence.
You know where you can put it, I think."Nice.
It might be instructive to start here and read the posts in order and pay attention to exact verbiage:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20130930/msgs/1053331.html
I would be curious to know where you might find the first sign of provocation.
I hope that I may be allowed my anger as one would allow that of others. Despite my anger, I still try to remain civil. Incivility I left for another thread.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on October 31, 2013, at 21:30:12
In reply to Re: And off I go again » baseball55, posted by SLS on October 31, 2013, at 21:14:00
> I hope that I may be allowed my anger as one would allow that of others. Despite my anger, I still try to remain civil. Incivility I left for another thread.
Pardon my confusion. It was this thread in which I was uncivil.
Scott: "Finally, what in the hell do I need to bully you for? You are not so special that I would dedicate such resources to in a vain attempt to assert my ego, right?"
This passage was meant to be sarcastic and rhetorical with respect to specialness and hungry egos. I see no way to rephrase it to make it more civil or otherwise palatable. This was ill-considered, and I apologize to PC for having posted it.
- Scott
Posted by Partlycloudy on October 31, 2013, at 21:48:19
In reply to Re: And off I go again, posted by SLS on October 31, 2013, at 21:30:12
Thank you for granting me the ordinary. That is what I strive for. I am not really intellectually up to or mentally capable of the type of discourse that you might want from someone, say, closer to your degree. (Not speaking of education, but of ability).
I am dumb as a sack of rocks regarding most intellectual things.
On the other hand, I know how I feel, quite vividly.See ya.
Posted by SLS on October 31, 2013, at 23:26:32
In reply to Re: And off I go again » SLS, posted by Partlycloudy on October 31, 2013, at 21:48:19
> I am dumb as a sack of rocks regarding most intellectual things.
This might be true. I wouldn't know. However, I thought your thread, "Thinking we are special" was thought-provoking and definitely intellectual. It was also challenging to conventional thought. This was what I meant by "challenge". I do wish that there had been an opportunity for discussion about your topic before misunderstandings got in the way.
- Scott
Posted by Angela2 on November 1, 2013, at 0:08:44
In reply to Re: And off I go again » SLS, posted by Partlycloudy on October 31, 2013, at 21:48:19
PC, I think you're awesome. Just do what is best for you. Though, as long as I'm here, I hope u stay :)
Posted by Dinah on November 1, 2013, at 7:39:22
In reply to And off I go again, posted by Partlycloudy on October 30, 2013, at 19:02:53
FWIW, which likely isn't much because I haven't read every post, it appears that language and the interpretation of language is getting in the way.
Overall how it struck me is that Alex has been struggling lately with feeling out of step with the mainstream of her offline life, and looking forward to getting what she needs as a result of being diagnosed as different - or special if you like. Yet there appears to be a real struggle involved and it's a very current struggle, and hence a very tender area. I am interpreting, Alex, and hope you tell me if I'm wrong.
PC then posted something, likely totally unrelated to Alex's post, about none of us being special. Something that came from her own experiences and is valuable to her in helping her deal with the world. It's an interesting argument, and my own personal take is like Scott's. I think we come from a similar theological viewpoint, which likely influences that. We're a world of special unique snowflakes. Each of us is special. Each of us is unique. But we're among millions of other special unique beings. There it all turns on what it means to be special and unique and what it means to be like everyone else. And that might be something that differs from person to person based on everything from experience to theology.
That's why groups and friendships often form among those who are "different" in similar ways.
As far as Scott's post, I haven't read a lot lately, so don't know if his general posting style has changed, but I read what he said as something cool and detached but not unsupportive. Sort of the sort of thing Dr. Bob tells me sometimes that does indeed make me feel like he said "Don't let the door hit you on the way out." Even though I know intellectually that he isn't issuing me an invitation to leave. I took Scott's statement more as something like "Only you can know whether Babble feels safe to you or not. You need to assess that. Does disagreement and pressing each other's buttons make you feel unsafe? Because that's often enough happened here that it's likely to continue to happen. Can you feel safe when that happens? Can you find a way of feeling safe when people are upset at what you've said?" I didn't see his original statement as angry or rejecting, just an intellectual provocation to thought. Just as PC didn't mean her post as an indictment on Alex's posts lately, Scott didn't mean his post as bullying or an invitation to leave. It's just that we all are interpreting things in accord with what we each "hear", not what each of us "said".
I'm stating what I'm "hearing", which isn't necessarily what you're "saying" of course. So if I have any of you wrong, I hope you'll correct me - with the basic idea that I don't think any of you meant to cause anyone else any pain.
It was an unfortunate misunderstanding I think. But I also think that in a much smaller and self contained Babble it might be a good idea for each of us to stop and try to reassess what we've just "heard". I know Alex, and PC, and Scott. I don't think any of you meant any harm. So I ask all of you to stop and talk - really talk - to one another with the idea that what you "heard" isn't necessarily what was "said". All of us are special and unique, but we all have to live with one another here. We're special and unique, we bring our own sensibilities. But we are all in this together with our and everyone else's sensibilities and life experiences and interpretations. We are special snowflakes in a very small and increasingly small community of snow. We don't want *anyone* to feel like they aren't part of this community or that their viewpoint isn't valued - even if it isn't agreed with - as long as it is respectful to others. I don't see any of what was originally said as disrespectful to others. It isn't until *reactions* got into the dialogue that it got less respectful.
Posted by Dinah on November 1, 2013, at 7:45:34
In reply to Snowflakes and a melting community, posted by Dinah on November 1, 2013, at 7:39:22
By groups, I meant things like the women's group I think I heard PC mention. Or groups of students who actually like to study in total silence. Or my Sunday School, which is a subgroup in our church.
Not Babble. Which in some ways is based on our mutual differences from the rest of the world. But of course, once you get into that community of people who struggle with mental health issues, there are of course a million different ways to struggle with mental health issues, and a host of other differences in viewpoints. All of which are ok, as long as our commonalities are kept in mind and as as long as we're civil.
Which of course is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Defining "civil".
Posted by SLS on November 1, 2013, at 7:56:39
In reply to Snowflakes and a melting community, posted by Dinah on November 1, 2013, at 7:39:22
Thank you, Dinah.
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on November 1, 2013, at 8:08:46
In reply to Re: Snowflakes and a melting community » Dinah, posted by SLS on November 1, 2013, at 7:56:39
Did I understand your original statement correctly?
Posted by Partlycloudy on November 1, 2013, at 8:09:29
In reply to Snowflakes and a melting community, posted by Dinah on November 1, 2013, at 7:39:22
You'll notice who has been absent from these discussions.
I think reading any of the posts on its own takes the discussion out of context, which was one of my beefs when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was a deputy. If you want to know what our differences are, and who is really angry, it deserves a read.
I hear what Angela2 and you, Dinah, are saying about being special or unique. It's not really the same spirit in which I was referring to, where people take their upbringings and sufferings in life, and say, "these are the reasons I am special and deserve to be treated differently."
Baseball made a good point about that in a post.
But I will tell you what. I will let Scott and Alexandra have their stories about what makes them special and unique, since it brings them so much happiness. And I will stay out of it. Those are their stories and I only have my own. I can only take care of my business, the grand lesson of them all.
I know not many will even notice. That is fine and OK.
Thanks for the posts and discussions.
PC
Posted by Dinah on November 1, 2013, at 8:19:11
In reply to Re: Snowflakes and a melting community » Dinah, posted by Partlycloudy on November 1, 2013, at 8:09:29
PC, did you make your original post with Alex's posts in mind? I suspect she saw a linkage that I don't believe existed and responded with defensive anger.
Perhaps we don't have the same background to understand "making up stories" in the same way. But in your usage, so far as I understand it, and meaning no disrespect, what story do you think you're making up about Babble. What story do you think Scott is making up about Babble right now? What story do you think Alex is making up about Babble right now? How do those three stories differ from the story I'm making up about Babble right now?
All that means, to me, is that we're each interpreting the facts in light of our history and understanding. It's the stories that really are keeping us apart, not the facts. I think it might be valuable to try to reconcile the stories.
Alex may have reacted with defensive anger. Which is certainly *not* a unique reaction. Did you not say somewhere in the thread that you responded with anger to posts on this thread? Can you concentrate on that similarity with Alex and possibly try to understand why she reacted as she did, if she had a mistaken notion of your intent?
Posted by Partlycloudy on November 1, 2013, at 9:10:33
In reply to Re: Snowflakes and a melting community » Partlycloudy, posted by Dinah on November 1, 2013, at 8:19:11
I can't feel comfortable at this time discussing Alex's feelings or intentions without her participation in the thread. I believe, though, that this started out with her frustration at shared accommodation and one by one dismissing our suggestions. (Those noise cancelling headphones really do work.)
And Scott was the person who brought up the issue of my anger. Some posters are more likely to bring that element up in me than others. He also did invite me to leave the community. I don't think I dreamt that, and I definitely took issue with that invitation.
So the story I have been making up about babble is that my suggestions are not welcome, and more so, my presence is not welcome. That would be where my anger rose up, because I felt a threat.
Now I realise that nothing I can say would have any effect, and I dropped these stories. Alex will do whatever she wants. Scott will think whatever he wants. And I will likely stay out of it given how I have reacted in the past. I don't know and can't predict mine or anyone's future response.
And I believe that Alex at this stage prefers to be of as a unique person in a unique situation. Or special. That is what works for her.
PC
Posted by Dinah on November 1, 2013, at 9:37:24
In reply to Re: Snowflakes and a melting community » Dinah, posted by Partlycloudy on November 1, 2013, at 9:10:33
You don't consider it possible that Scott was not inviting you to leave by saying "Maybe it's not"? That my interpretation may not be correct? Of course, Scott's here and can say whether it is or not.
Are you saying that your statement about specialness *did* apply to Alex? In that case, do you think it might not be natural if she responded with defensive anger? Just as it would be natural to respond with defensive anger if Scott *did* intend to request you to leave Babble. If it one intends to confront someone with with what one considers to be an unpalatable truth, even if done with positive intent, anger is not an unexpected outcome.
Personally, I don't think it's particularly unreasonable when in a controlled environment to ask for accommodations where one can be comfortable. When I was admitted to the hospital, I was given a private room by chance. But had I not been, I couldn't have tolerated a shared room and would have checked out against medical advice, if necessary. I couldn't have performed the function for which I was in the hospital if I was in terror that my roommate would vomit. No matter how unlikely that might be. Would I be asking for special treatment? Yes. Would I have felt like that was a problem? No.
Posted by Partlycloudy on November 1, 2013, at 9:48:56
In reply to Re: Snowflakes and a melting community » Partlycloudy, posted by Dinah on November 1, 2013, at 9:37:24
No, I read it as Scott making a definitive statement.
I am not going to discuss Alex any further, since she has opted out. This has become conjecture. (I am biting my tongue firmly.)
Posted by SLS on November 1, 2013, at 10:56:43
In reply to Re: Snowflakes and a melting community » SLS, posted by Dinah on November 1, 2013, at 8:08:46
> Did I understand your original statement correctly?
Yes.
- Scott
Posted by Partlycloudy on November 1, 2013, at 11:41:16
In reply to Re: Snowflakes and a melting community » Dinah, posted by SLS on November 1, 2013, at 10:56:43
> > Did I understand your original statement correctly?
>
> Yes.
>
>
> - ScottThis is what you posted, Scott:
"You sound very angry. I'm sorry that you feel Psycho-Babble is longer a safe place to be. You are probably right.
- Scott"That very much reads like an invitation to not let the door hit me on the way out.
Words are words are words and they have meaning.
Not angry, just accurate.
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