![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 145 to 169 of 169. Go back in thread:
Posted by fayeroe on August 5, 2010, at 21:55:29
In reply to Re: another block » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on August 5, 2010, at 21:50:58
Posted by Dinah on August 5, 2010, at 21:56:14
In reply to Re: another block........Don't do it...... » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on August 5, 2010, at 21:10:12
I love the stories of Fayeroe the dog.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 6, 2010, at 1:10:36
In reply to Re: another block » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on August 5, 2010, at 21:54:27
> If his goal is to have posters take more responsibility for site civility, I'm not sure it is achievable. But I do think that this isn't the way to attempt it, and I wish he'd abandon one that hasn't produced the results he'd want.
>
> If his goal is more limited, to having posters recognize that they are not powerless in the face of the blocks they later protest, I also think this isn't the best choice of words. I think if that is his goal, he ought to just say "People protest blocks, but I don't see many people trying to prevent them. In fact, sometimes I see people encouraging the behaviors that lead to blocks and then complaining that the blocks are unfair. I'd like anyone who objects to blocks to do what they can to prevent them in ways other than protesting the blocks. There are other methods than protests, and they may be more effective. Protesting hasn't proved all that effective."
>
> Dinah> only a couple spoke on babble. That speak,s to me as you wanted me banned, or you didnt give a sh*t. I think thats what bob means about helping each other. The Block didnt hit me hard but the lack of support did.
>
> manic666Thanks for understanding, and for suggesting how I might rephrase my requests.
--
> Now as a psychiatrist dont you think to block someone who may not be talking an posting with a clear head is dangerouse to there health,All kinds of damage may follow. the blocked person may become more unwell ,his or her family may suffer, all sorts o f thing could go wrong
>
> manic666I know things could go wrong for the poster. That's why I'd like to see blocks prevented! And why I remind people:
> > In a crisis, please also get help in person.
And why I like that listing compiled by a poster of helpful web pages on coping with crisis:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-tips/links/Coping_with_crisis_001012507973
--
> > If anyone starts being unpleasant, the other members calmly convey the message that that isn't appropriate there
>
> Would not such an act here be looked upon as being accusatory?
>
> - ScottMaybe not if it uses I-statements. For example, based on an example I proposed over a year ago:
> > Fayeroe, I'm worried that Dr. Bob isn't going to like what you posted. I care about you, and you're important to this community. Maybe being blocked doesn't bother you, but would you consider apologizing for my sake? I feel sad and traumatized every time he blocks one of us.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20090529/msgs/905410.html
--
> I find it extremely difficult to do something that someone tells/asks me to do when the "request/guilt/manipulation is upsetting my stomach.
>
> fayeroe> Dinah has been right, surely, about the shaming quality of the requests.
>
> sigismund> My therapy involves accepting that my emotions are a normal reaction to how my parents treated me as a child. That is healing, and that promotes changes in my outlook on life as opposed to someone telling me ... that I am somehow flawed in my way of experiencing the world..rather than someone who has inner pain to work through.
>
> as you probably could picture, being told "if only you were more like Dinah"...might bring up feelings from growing up ... which are very damaging to one's mental health.
>
> violetteI agree, some people may be in too much pain to help others. One of the advantages of a community, however, is that other members may be able to.
I haven't meant to imply that everyone should be more like Dinah -- or like me, for that matter. Each of us has strengths and weaknesses. It may be difficult and even triggering, but acknowledging a weakness could mean an opportunity to learn from someone with a strength.
> > Replace shame with mature guilt. Guilt has often received bad press, and well it should--if, and only if, you are talking about neurotic guilt--guilt that self-flagellates and changes nothing. If you are talking about mature guilt, then guilt is one of the great inventions of nature. For mature guilt lets you know what is unacceptable, and offers you opportunity to do something about it. Shame, on the other hand comes to you as a feeling so deep and so incapable of your getting a grasp on it that it seems there is nothing you can do. To illustrate: John feels shame that he is not the sort of person who can ever excel at his work. Whatever happens, a demotion, a "blowing-out" by his boss, he senses that this is because he is "basically inadequate," so he hangs his head and lowers his eyes and dampens his energy. Finding the "smarts" and the courage to re-evaluate himself as "guilty" of inertia and poor training, he begins to create and achieve goals that are possible for him. So if he sets certain standards, and then if he doesn't achieve them, he can rightly feel guilty that he is failing and can increase his efforts to succeed, or redefine his goals. He has moved into consciousness that his worth can be defined by realistic possibilities, not by the un-focused and "hidden" demands of shame-making expectations.
http://www.psychsight.com/ar-shame.html
--
> I think the way he expressed his emotion through songs was healthy and has contributed to his self-growth in a positive way.
> When some people are brought up not allowed to express emotions, I think it's better to express them in that way vs. keeping them inside.
> I probably need to remind myself more often this forum isn't a therapist's office.
>
> violetteExactly, it can be therapeutic to express oneself, but this isn't necessarily the place.
--
> Bob, I sure hope that you don't teach classes and use the tactics that you are attempting to use on us.
>
> I think Bob could say "Student A, you are failing this class".
>
> I think that Bob might then say "Class, if Student A fails this class, I will see you as responsible for not trying to help him avoid failing the class".
>
> fayeroeAre posters competing for a good "grade" from me? Is that why they're not helping each other more? This isn't that kind of class. I'd like everyone to pass this class. It's OK to help each other here.
--
> do you perhaps see why doing what you wish would not feel caring to Fayeroe?
>
> DinahLike someone who's drunk doesn't feel it's caring not to be allowed to drive?
Bob
Posted by sigismund on August 6, 2010, at 3:01:14
In reply to Re: another block........Don't do it...... » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on August 5, 2010, at 21:10:12
I suppose the hitch is that you see the apology thing as (at least like) a device to stir us up.
Now Alex managed to get away with saying that these requests made her skin crawl....
>Reading the above phrase results in my skin crawling. Then I get a shuddering sensation. Then I feel angry and a little like throwing up. Every time. Without fail. Lets see if I can articulate why...but you did not get away with saying (but what? I don't have it here, but there was manipulative, childish and at least something else).
Alex's statement was really strong. Feel like throwing up? Shuddering? OK. It was OK. For some reason.
Not give a sh*t?
Your anger is what informs some of the best of you
Remember caraher saying 'You are a great American patriot'?
I will really miss you when you're gone, as I did before you came back.I don't understand why this has to happen, and I wish it didn't.
Posted by Dinah on August 6, 2010, at 6:18:15
In reply to Re: Lessons from Bob, posted by Dr. Bob on August 6, 2010, at 1:10:36
> > do you perhaps see why doing what you wish would not feel caring to Fayeroe?
> >
> > Dinah
>
> Like someone who's drunk doesn't feel it's caring not to be allowed to drive?I don't see the analogy.
Perhaps you could change your request to "For those who see this as driving drunk, and who give a sh*t about Poster X...."
Posted by PartlyCloudy on August 6, 2010, at 7:09:33
In reply to Re: another block, posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2010, at 20:25:01
How about those of us who see your request as a personal attack against Fayeroe? Or as an attempt to manipulate us as posters? I would like to defend her against such an attack, but I don't think that bowing to your request would be the moral solution.
Stand tall, Fayeroe.
The dance of words, as Sigismund has indicated, is a difficult one. Those "I" statements are mere rearrangements of letters on the screen, but should not be undertaken if they corrupt your meaning, IMO.
PartlyCloudy
Posted by fayeroe on August 6, 2010, at 10:26:48
In reply to Re: Lessons from Bob, posted by Dr. Bob on August 6, 2010, at 1:10:36
"> Bob, I sure hope that you don't teach classes and use the tactics that you are attempting to use on us.
>
> I think Bob could say "Student A, you are failing this class".
>
> I think that Bob might then say "Class, if Student A fails this class, I will see you as responsible for not trying to help him avoid failing the class".
>
> fayeroeAre posters competing for a good "grade" from me?
I'm not and I don't believe any of the posters that I "know" are.
Is that why they're not helping each other more?
No.
This isn't that kind of class. I'd like everyone to pass this class. It's OK to help each other here.
No one that I know here thinks they are in class. We do help one another here. We do it in individual ways. We're adults.
--
Posted by fayeroe on August 6, 2010, at 11:50:32
In reply to Re: another block........Don't do it...... » fayeroe, posted by sigismund on August 6, 2010, at 3:01:14
> I suppose the hitch is that you see the apology thing as (at least like) a device to stir us up.
I do.
> Now Alex managed to get away with saying that these requests made her skin crawl....
> >Reading the above phrase results in my skin crawling. Then I get a shuddering sensation. Then I feel angry and a little like throwing up. Every time. Without fail. Lets see if I can articulate why...I know.
>
> but you did not get away with saying (but what? I don't have it here, but there was manipulative, childish and at least something else).stomach roiling, childish (3 times) and ??
>
> Alex's statement was really strong. Feel like throwing up? Shuddering? OK. It was OK. For some reason.It is personal. It isn't the statements.
>
> Not give a sh*t?That was an interesting choice of words.
> Your anger is what informs some of the best of you
> Remember caraher saying 'You are a great American patriot'?I do have a fire in the pit of my stomach when I believe in something.
You and Caraher are jewels.
> I will really miss you when you're gone, as I did before you came back.I always miss you. But you're always by my side.
>
> I don't understand why this has to happen, and I wish it didn't.I wish that it would not happen. It would not happen if I was on another life path. Life isn't always fair and frequently it sucks. This is one of those times.
Oil and water? Fire and rain? Enlightenment and ???
>
>
xoxoxoxoxoxo
Posted by sigismund on August 6, 2010, at 15:08:29
In reply to Re: another block........Don't do it...... » sigismund, posted by fayeroe on August 6, 2010, at 11:50:32
I love you Pat, you're just wonderful.
Posted by sigismund on August 6, 2010, at 15:17:26
In reply to Re: Lessons from Bob » Dr. Bob, posted by fayeroe on August 6, 2010, at 10:26:48
Maybe psychiatrists with websites have thought long and hard about the human condition and think that there will always be discord and if the price for politeness/civility is a series of blocks and a whole lot of people who feel like their skin is crawling, then so be it. Like political leaders do.
I had to look civility up. It's a word I never use. Politeness I understand. Friendliness, yes. All this sacrifice over whatever the f*ck it is, the use of I statements and......everyone knows the intent of the people they know at all, at least I think they do, I think I do. So what's it all for? What's anything for? Don't ask me :)
Posted by fayeroe on August 6, 2010, at 15:25:45
In reply to Re: another block........Don't do it...... » fayeroe, posted by sigismund on August 6, 2010, at 15:08:29
> I love you Pat, you're just wonderful.
And I love you. You are one of the bright lights of my lifetime.
Posted by fayeroe on August 6, 2010, at 16:41:36
In reply to Re: Lessons from Bob » fayeroe, posted by sigismund on August 6, 2010, at 15:17:26
> Maybe psychiatrists with websites have thought long and hard about the human condition and think that there will always be discord and if the price for politeness/civility is a series of blocks and a whole lot of people who feel like their skin is crawling, then so be it. Like political leaders do.
>
> I had to look civility up. It's a word I never use. Politeness I understand. Friendliness, yes. All this sacrifice over whatever the f*ck it is, the use of I statements and......everyone knows the intent of the people they know at all, at least I think they do, I think I do. So what's it all for? What's anything for? Don't ask me :)"everyone knows the intent of the people they know at all, at least I think they do, I think I do. So what's it all for? What's anything for? Don't ask me :)
I agree with you. Uptopia doesn't exist. What a boring life that would be. I've learned more from my downs than I learned from my ups.
All of this made me think of reading a comment board while the young California sailor was lost at sea. She had been able to send one message and I guess something broke and it ended her transmissions.
Lots of people were commenting and most were genuinely concerned for the girl and were thinking of her and some were praying for her safety.
Then out of the sky blew the people who were on the attack. They were furious over several different aspects of the story. The ones who were the angriest were the parents who said they would NEVER, EVER let their child out of their sight and that letting that girl sail off alone was just like signing her death certificate. They yelled and carried on about bus drivers, swimming coaches, teachers, cops...you name it, these folks see danger at every turn. They home schooled their children. No way would they trust that someone/anyone else could keep their child safe. My mouth dropped open and probably remained that way throughout this long, long comment thread. In short, the only life they wanted their children to have was with them at their side at all times.
When they finished with "world safety" for their children, they set in on that girl's parents. It was a war! Things were said in anger that blew my mind. Never knowing these parents and never planning on meeting them..they crucified them for allowing their child to go off by herself to set a world record.
Then the "soothers/reasoners" arrived. They talked at length about letting children experience the world. Let them do things on their own. Let me feel. Let them hurt and let them heal. They talked at length about how prepared the teenager was to take the trip alone. They sent good wishes to her. None of them blamed her parents.
There must be a reason why I answered you the way I did. A friend came and we've been outside repairing a screen door and in the 102 heat, my brain "refried"..
You get it though. The tighter the grip the less hold you really have.
God, it is hot. And we're only at August 6th!
Posted by sigismund on August 6, 2010, at 17:30:13
In reply to Re: Lessons from Bob » sigismund, posted by fayeroe on August 6, 2010, at 16:41:36
I heard this writer on the radio. She was great.
In Japan kids of 6 catch the trains. A blind man got on at one station, people helped him to his seat, after a few stops he pulled what looked like a fob watch out of his pocket and did something. At the next stop he walked to the door and there was a rail official to help him off. That is infrastructure.
Posted by fayeroe on August 6, 2010, at 18:02:40
In reply to Re: Lessons from Bob, posted by sigismund on August 6, 2010, at 17:30:13
> I heard this writer on the radio. She was great.
>
> "Free Range Kids"
>
> In Japan kids of 6 catch the trains.I think that Stella could ride a train alone now. She will be 7 in November. King, who is 4, would be ordering everyone around. He is very full of himself. :-)
A blind man got on at one station, people helped him to his seat, after a few stops he pulled what looked like a fob watch out of his pocket and did something. At the next stop he walked to the door and there was a rail official to help him off. That is infrastructure.In the fight that was going on over the teen sailing alone I remember three or four people relate how they took the subway in NY when they were 7-9 years old. The gasps from the "helicopter" parents could be heard round the world!
That is fantastic that Japan has a system that facilitates the blind man to go wherever he wants. It would never happen here. United Airlines lost a little boy about 6 weeks ago. 9 years old. Put him in the "kiddy" lounge and left him there all day. He called his parents with his cellphone after being in there so long.......
I thought this was a big deal when I was a kid. I had to start working in the fields and the barn with the cattle when I had my 9th birthday. I thought it was really something. I went straight to work after school and always tried to best my previous time for having work done when my dad got home to help me finish up. We did have cow dogs and that made a world of difference because all I had to do was whistle for them and the cows would throw their tails straight up and run for the pens! Our dogs were heelers. I also had a horse that I rode down into the big pastures if "someone" didn't come up. It usually meant she had a calf and was not bringing it up.
The biggest deal was letting me ride, by myself, three miles to an elderly man's house to borrow books. I rode the mule bareback and carried a big "tow sack" for the books. I thought I had definitely arrived!
>
>
Posted by sigismund on August 7, 2010, at 15:01:04
In reply to Re: Lessons from Bob » sigismund, posted by fayeroe on August 6, 2010, at 18:02:40
It seems you're still here :)
My son and I put $50 on for a Liberal win on Betfair.
This way, whatever happens with the election I will be pleased, and I will get $50 worth of good conversations with outraged Green and Labor voters (if there are any left).
Posted by fayeroe on August 7, 2010, at 15:43:39
In reply to Re: Tangent » fayeroe, posted by sigismund on August 7, 2010, at 15:01:04
> It seems you're still here :)
>
> My son and I put $50 on for a Liberal win on Betfair.
>
> This way, whatever happens with the election I will be pleased, and I will get $50 worth of good conversations with outraged Green and Labor voters (if there are any left).I've never bet on an election. That is cool Is it a pool? There will be Green and Labor voters left. They are survivors. I'll be waiting to hear what happens. :-)
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 8, 2010, at 21:57:45
In reply to Ron's 3 wk blk. Please, a show of hands of all the, posted by fayeroe on August 2, 2010, at 1:30:47
> I feel that the statement is manipulative, stomach roiling, disgusting, childish, childish, childish
Please don't post anything that could lead others (including me) to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts you. I don't want anything bad to happen to you. In a crisis, please also get help in person. You may also wish to check out a listing compiled by a poster of helpful web pages on coping with crisis at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/psycho-babble-tips/links/Coping_with_crisis_001012507973
I do hope that you choose to remain a member of this community and that members of this community help you, if needed, to avoid future blocks. Thanks, sigismund, for trying to help this time.
It's up to you to decide whom you interact with. Sometimes interacting with others may be frustrating, staying civil may be a challenge, and new skills may help. If you're open to developing new skills (which I realize may not be why you came in the first place), that's another way in which you may be supported by other posters.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
PS: According to the formula:
duration of previous block: 6 weeks
period of time since previous block: 10 weeks
severity: 2 (default)
block length = 9.35 rounded = 9 weeks
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 8, 2010, at 22:12:48
In reply to Re: blocked for 9 weeks » fayeroe, posted by Dr. Bob on August 8, 2010, at 21:57:45
> Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100714/msgs/957977.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on August 8, 2010, at 22:42:08
In reply to Re: another block, posted by Dr. Bob on August 5, 2010, at 20:25:01
> Protests haven't proved all that effective at preventing blocks and may even encourage behaviors that lead to them.And whose fault is that?
> I haven't meant to imply that everyone should be more like Dinah -- or like me, for that matter.
Really? That isn't what 'please be civil' means?
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 9, 2010, at 1:59:29
In reply to Re: another block » Dr. Bob, posted by alexandra_k on August 8, 2010, at 22:42:08
> > Protests haven't proved all that effective at preventing blocks and may even encourage behaviors that lead to them.
>
> And whose fault is that?Are you protesting? :-) I see posters as primarily responsible for the behaviors that lead to blocks, and myself as primarily responsible for the blocks. "Primarily" because we influence each other.
> > I haven't meant to imply that everyone should be more like Dinah -- or like me, for that matter.
>
> Really? That isn't what 'please be civil' means?Well, maybe it does in a limited way. If had a good dinner tonight, and I want to have a good dinner tomorrow, would you say I want tomorrow's dinner to be like today's?
Bob
Posted by PartlyCloudy on August 9, 2010, at 8:34:27
In reply to Re: blocked for 9 weeks » fayeroe, posted by Dr. Bob on August 8, 2010, at 21:57:45
I hope you had a WONDERFUL weekend away from the boards.
I'm sorry you're blocked, and for such a long time.pc
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 10, 2010, at 23:11:45
In reply to Re: blocked for 3 weeks » ron1953, posted by Dr. Bob on August 2, 2010, at 0:57:01
> block length = 2.98 rounded = 3 weeks
doubled = 6 weeks
If someone tries to get around being blocked by posting as someone else, I block the other posting name and extend the duration of the original block:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforce
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on August 19, 2010, at 6:54:21
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling?, posted by Dr. Bob on August 9, 2010, at 1:59:29
> I see posters as primarily responsible for the behaviors that lead to blocks
Ah. I see posters as primarily responsible for their behaviors.
I see you as primarily responsible for behaviors that lead to blocks because it is you that chooses to block the behavior.
I see that this is particularly the case when the majority do not think that the behavior merits a block.> > > I haven't meant to imply that everyone should be more like Dinah -- or like me, for that matter.
> > Really? That isn't what 'please be civil' means?
> Well, maybe it does in a limited way. If had a good dinner tonight, and I want to have a good dinner tomorrow, would you say I want tomorrow's dinner to be like today's?
What if you have a repeated pattern of blocking most other dinners?
Posted by alexandra_k on August 19, 2010, at 6:55:02
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » Dr. Bob, posted by alexandra_k on August 19, 2010, at 6:54:21
Anyway, I've kinda had enough.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 20, 2010, at 1:04:59
In reply to Re: Why Is Babble Not Babbling? » Dr. Bob, posted by alexandra_k on August 19, 2010, at 6:54:21
> > I see posters as primarily responsible for the behaviors that lead to blocks, and myself as primarily responsible for the blocks.
>
> Ah. I see posters as primarily responsible for their behaviors.
> I see you as primarily responsible for behaviors that lead to blocks because it is you that chooses to block the behavior.
> I see that this is particularly the case when the majority do not think that the behavior merits a block.I see posters as primarily responsible for their behaviors, both those that lead to blocks and those that don't. I see myself as primarily responsible for the blocks -- and for deciding which behaviors will lead to blocks.
If others say they don't think a behavior that leads to a block should lead to one, that can encourage the behavior, in which case I'd see them as secondarily responsible for that behavior. Or at least for posters not rephrasing or apologizing for it.
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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