Psycho-Babble Social Thread 721248

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My thoughts on book/film recommendations one woman cine

Posted by ClearSkies on January 16, 2007, at 20:39:34

In reply to Joy Luck Club + stereotypes... - Auntie Mel, posted by one woman cine on January 16, 2007, at 11:16:13

Isn't it wonderful how we can help enrich others' points of view by merely suggesting that they read a book or watch a film? If one is housebound, or unable to travel, being able to read or watch about another's views and experiences becomes invaluable, irreplaceable.

> I must respectfully disagree with Joy Luck Club...
>

Have you read a book that might flesh out the author's story? Something that has resonated with you, perhaps?

>
>
> By extension of Auntie Mel's and Kath's "Joy Luck Club" -
>
>
> For understanding groups we don't understand, read book "XYZ"
>

Or, maybe, "for insight in trying to understand groups we don't understand, read book "XYZ" ."

>
> watch (or read) One Flew over the Cuckoo's nest to understand the mentally ill.
>

I'd also suggest reading Sylvia Plath's "The Bell Jar", and also "The Noonday Demon", and "An Unquiet Mind". All excellent books, all with their own stories to tell.


> watch the Lone Ranger to understand American Indians...
>

I liked the movie "Smoke Signals" for its take on modern reservation life. ("Don't laugh so much," says one character. "You're supposed to look stoic.")

> read (or watch) Huckleberry Finn or the Color purple to understand african americans...
>

Hmmm, Olivia Butler? Maya Angelou? How about a Spike Lee film?

> To understand the South, read Flannery O'connor or Tennesee William's "streetcar named desire"
>
> Watch the Sopranos to understand Italian americans.
>
> & on it goes.....

Indeed, on and on it goes... reading, watching films, exposing ourselves to literature and art from cultures foreign to ours is what sparks enquiry; leads to understanding, revelation, compassion....

I did read a certain tone into your post, one woman cine. I interpreted it as less than supportive of another poster's suggestion. Perhaps that's because of our personal styles. I tend to be informal and often flippant - though I'm dead serious here. It is impossible to "read" intent in the posts here.

That's my 2 cents. Thanks,
ClearSkies

 

Lou'sresponse to aspects of ClearSkie's post

Posted by Lou Pilder on January 16, 2007, at 23:12:55

In reply to My thoughts on book/film recommendations one woman cine, posted by ClearSkies on January 16, 2007, at 20:39:34

> Isn't it wonderful how we can help enrich others' points of view by merely suggesting that they read a book or watch a film? If one is housebound, or unable to travel, being able to read or watch about another's views and experiences becomes invaluable, irreplaceable.
>
> > I must respectfully disagree with Joy Luck Club...
> >
>
> Have you read a book that might flesh out the author's story? Something that has resonated with you, perhaps?
>
> >
> >
> > By extension of Auntie Mel's and Kath's "Joy Luck Club" -
> >
> >
> > For understanding groups we don't understand, read book "XYZ"
> >
>
> Or, maybe, "for insight in trying to understand groups we don't understand, read book "XYZ" ."
>
> >
> > watch (or read) One Flew over the Cuckoo's nest to understand the mentally ill.
> >
>
> I'd also suggest reading Sylvia Plath's "The Bell Jar", and also "The Noonday Demon", and "An Unquiet Mind". All excellent books, all with their own stories to tell.
>
>
> > watch the Lone Ranger to understand American Indians...
> >
>
> I liked the movie "Smoke Signals" for its take on modern reservation life. ("Don't laugh so much," says one character. "You're supposed to look stoic.")
>
> > read (or watch) Huckleberry Finn or the Color purple to understand african americans...
> >
>
> Hmmm, Olivia Butler? Maya Angelou? How about a Spike Lee film?
>
> > To understand the South, read Flannery O'connor or Tennesee William's "streetcar named desire"
> >
> > Watch the Sopranos to understand Italian americans.
> >
> > & on it goes.....
>
> Indeed, on and on it goes... reading, watching films, exposing ourselves to literature and art from cultures foreign to ours is what sparks enquiry; leads to understanding, revelation, compassion....
>
> I did read a certain tone into your post, one woman cine. I interpreted it as less than supportive of another poster's suggestion. Perhaps that's because of our personal styles. I tend to be informal and often flippant - though I'm dead serious here. It is impossible to "read" intent in the posts here.
>
> That's my 2 cents. Thanks,
> ClearSkies
>
> Friends,
It is written here,[...I did read a..tone into your post, one woman cine...less than supportive of another poster's suggestion...]
Let us look at the grammatical structure os OWC's post:
[...For understanding groups we don't understand, read book "XYZ"...]
The grammatical structure here has a qualifier for a challenge,(A),{for understanding groups we don't understand}, and then the offerd solution is to (B), read book "XYZ".
This is different from reading a book that is {about people} such as John Stienbeck's {...Grapes..Wrath...}. The book was about, on one level, the plight of those forced from their land in Oklahoma because of the environmental disaster of the {dust bowl} in the depression era of the 1930's. I don't think OWC is saying to read that book to find out about what is typical of people from Oklahoma today.
In Merideth Wilson's,{...Music Man....}I do not think that watching the play is suggested to be a way to know what is typical of people from Iowa today.
The grammatical structure of OWC's post is about sterotyping a group of people in a book that is different from Stienbeck's novel of Wilson's musical. If a book is sterotyping a group, it depicts selective inferrences to catagorize them with generalizations about them. These are often invalid assumptions and in many cases designed to defame the group, but not always.
Looking at the grammatical structure of AM's post that one woman cine was referring to,[...your mom is old school Chinese..typical mainland..from her generation...sounds like the mom in the book...], I wonder if those inferrences could apply to {mom} here or not. What if {mom} was not like those perceptions?
Lou


>

 

Re: well thanks gg tofuemmy

Posted by one woman cine on January 17, 2007, at 6:59:34

In reply to Re: well thanks gg one woman cine, posted by tofuemmy on January 16, 2007, at 15:50:34

Thanks, tofuemmy - I really appreciated that - affect is hard to read over the internet.

 

Re: let me add - Ll Llurpsie_Noodle

Posted by one woman cine on January 17, 2007, at 7:31:06

In reply to Re: let me add -, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 16, 2007, at 16:21:00

I totally understand your point, literature and fiction can enrich our lives and make us think.... but when generalizations are made about a group of people or a single person; it becomes very problematic....

This was the statment Auntie Mel made...

"Deneb, your mom is old school Chinese. What she is saying is pretty typical of mainland people from her generation."

Generalizations lead to stereotyping.

Bipolar people are like this....& drug addicts are like this -

or borderlines are like this - so read "Girl interrupted" - or "managing countertransference with borderlines".

I personally couldn't read the Bell Jar and say, oh well so-and-so is depressed so this is what she must be like. I can say, gee, this sounds like me and resonates with me, but I can't sit inside someone's skin and say the same thing.

IMO it is dangerous to make assumptions about anyone - if you can read a book and understand yourself better, fine.

It explicitly states in the FAQ about sensitivity and generalizing about people.

Making assumptions about others based upon tv/movies etc. leads to stereotyping, which is why I provided the link before to illustrate this.

I would not like to be categorized or have a generalization made about me by someone who read a book or saw a movie; thinking that was similiar to me - so that must be how I'm like....

 

Re: well thanks gg one woman cine

Posted by gardenergirl on January 17, 2007, at 9:28:22

In reply to well thanks gg, posted by one woman cine on January 16, 2007, at 13:24:47

> for clarifying that. Golly! Maybe I'm being "senstive" but your post sets off my "sarcasm detector".
>
> "Mel, just kick me if you wish, because I know you can speak for yourself.
>
> However, I'm going to speak, too. Hope that's okay with you, onewomancine."
>
>
>
> I'm sure that's not your intended effect, though, right?
>
> ((((gg)))

Both of those statements were made, with a wink to Auntie Mel, as a response to your question to KK: "& you are also fairly confident you can speak for someone else?" We've all got different thresholds for deciding what's X and what's not. Personally, my sensitivity fluctuates throughout the month (darned hormones!), so I might be just as likely to read my post the way you did if it were someone else's I didn't know.

I'm sorry if my words and the possible tone that came across seemed disrespectful to you. I do understand your points, and I agree with most of them. I think I'd be more likely to focus on support for Deneb in this thread, though. Your supportive posts for her are great, btw.
>
> People other than Babblers read this bb and I'm not sure if they would necessarily have that same view.

I'm not sure what you are referring to here.

>
> People on babble are extremely sensitive to issues of mental health, in particular. I have seen people hurt by the stigma of mental illness.
> Just as it's not OK to stereotype mental illness, it's not OK to stigmatize any other group of people either.

I agree it's not ok to stigmatize others and that there is a great deal of unfair and damaging stigma associated with mental illness. Still, and I say this with a broad wink, grin, lack of criticism, and lack of malice...um, is there a common "sensitivity" for "people on Babble"? We're all sensitive? ;) Just a point that it's a common and in many ways quite efficient cognitive process to form generalities about groups. It's when we make assumptions based on those generalities and worse, act on them without thought for individual differences that this cognitive "shortcut" breaks down.

Thanks for the hug and right back atcha. :)

gg

namaste

 

Re: well thanks gg tofuemmy

Posted by gardenergirl on January 17, 2007, at 9:37:58

In reply to Re: well thanks gg one woman cine, posted by tofuemmy on January 16, 2007, at 15:50:34

Thanks sweetie. You know me pretty well. :)

Take care.

gg

namaste

 

Re: let me add - laima

Posted by gardenergirl on January 17, 2007, at 9:41:46

In reply to Re: let me add -, posted by laima on January 16, 2007, at 16:12:45

>
> I think reading fiction can be quite enriching, and can shed insight or a new twist on understanding one's own life experience. It can give us ideas for new language to use as we think of our experiences. For example, "Oh, this and this happened in my life and I felt terrible, it was horrible and embarressing- here something like it happened in the book and the author made it sound sort of bittersweetly funny. Maybe I can make peace with my experience and look at it lighter, too. I sure do have an interesting story..." Or, "That character in the book reminds me of my mom when she's too strict and unfair- oh- so the character behaves that way because of this and that? Maybe I should give mom a break." Sorry if this sounds sappy and oversimplified. I think the book suggestion was a good one.
>
>

I don't think this is sappy at all. That's part of what makes literature, all kinds, so enduring and meaningful to all of us and to each of us.

gg

namaste

 

Re: let me add - Ll one woman cine

Posted by gardenergirl on January 17, 2007, at 9:59:04

In reply to Re: let me add - Ll Llurpsie_Noodle, posted by one woman cine on January 17, 2007, at 7:31:06

>
> I would not like to be categorized or have a generalization made about me by someone who read a book or saw a movie; thinking that was similiar to me - so that must be how I'm like....

In this case, however, Auntie Mel was forming her impression based on experience with many Chinese women. It's more likely that she formed her impressions of Chinese women based on that experience, and then resonated with Ms. Tan's book versus the other way around. (AM, please feel free to correct my assumption if appropriate.) I also believe, based on my own experiences with Auntie Mel, that she is much *less* likely to form impressions or judgments about others based on cultural stereotypes than "the average bear". I deeply respect that about her.

Stereotypes break down as one gains experience with more and more individuals from the stereotyped group. Stereotypes are much more likely to be a primary factor in how an individual thinks about others when the individual's experience is narrow and limited to a small number of examples.

For example, it's been said that, "All so and soes look alike." The person saying that wouldn't say that about their own race, because they've had way more contact with people from their own group than the other group, (in most cases). If someone has a similar breadth of contacts with individuals from the other group, they are more able to discriminate individual feature differences and likely would not believe that, "All so and soes look alike".

Stereotypes are a complex construct.

gg

namaste

 

Re: let me add - Ll gardenergirl

Posted by one woman cine on January 17, 2007, at 10:15:06

In reply to Re: let me add - Ll one woman cine, posted by gardenergirl on January 17, 2007, at 9:59:04

Thank you for your thoughtful posts. I appreciate your points & I do agree with most of them.

I am widening the "stereotype" net, if you will to include all generalities of people. People with mental illness are stigmatized, by many - including some of their health care providers.

Some practioners won't work with borderlines or people with DID because of stereotypes ("they all cut, they are hysterics, they want attention, or they are faking it"...etc.) - &, correct me if I am wrong - the PB board posts are sometimes filled with anguish and angst because various posters are "generalized" and then more or less, stereotyped and discriminated against. No one likes that.

You know Auntie Mel. I do not. If I was an average poster with no experience with AM, then I might not be able to "get where the message is coming from" and take it as fact, not an opinion.

& also, having wide contact with any group; is not exactly reason to generalize. Deneb's mother is not unique in her reaction -

& my question is more rhetorical - is this a "old school chinese" reaction or a reaction common to a "personality type" if you will. But even that is very thin ice, & an assumption I am not comfortable making.

I don't want to belabor this point, though -

I was trying point out the damaging effects of stereotyping and engage in a more postive dialogue thinking "critically" about the issue.

Thanks again for the thoughtful posts.

 

mobius strips anyone? little lightness for all... (nm)

Posted by zenhussy on January 17, 2007, at 10:41:34

In reply to Re: let me add - Ll one woman cine, posted by gardenergirl on January 17, 2007, at 9:59:04

 

Re: let me add -

Posted by laima on January 17, 2007, at 12:41:32

In reply to Re: let me add - Ll gardenergirl, posted by one woman cine on January 17, 2007, at 10:15:06

What a bunch of nice posts right above this one!

I wanted to add somthing I was thinking of:

Reading Marjane Satrtapi challenged and diffused stereotypes about Muslims which I caught myself forming after 9/11. I met her at a book signing, and I told her simply "I learned a lot" from her books, and later in her talk she said she heard that a often and it made her happy- she saw that as one of her missions. I was so glad to hear- I initially felt rather stupid after I made the remark!

Reading authors such as Alice Walker prodded me to be more open minded about race when I was a college student.

Reading authors such as Gabriel Garcia Marquez and Isabelle Allende DID NOT cause me to believe all people who identify as Latin American believe in ghosts and magic. But they did make me more curious about the history and culture of South America.

Hearing about (though I never got around to reading or watching) "A Beautiful Mind" was a catalyst for challenging assumptions I didn't even realize I had about schizophrenia. (This one is still on my list.)

The list could go on and on. Even if someone's writing about their experience addresses stereotypes either directly or indirectly, a responsable reader knows each author is a single voice, and that there are many voices. Acknowledging diversity doesn't mean we have to place value judgements on who is better, right, or wrong. Reading diverse authors somehow helps one learn about the experiences of people who we think are different from us. We can identify with them readily, books can be so intimate and accessable. I am fascinated by the way someone else might describe an experience in comparison to how I might be inclined to describe it.

 

Re: let me add - laima

Posted by one woman cine on January 17, 2007, at 12:52:57

In reply to Re: let me add -, posted by laima on January 17, 2007, at 12:41:32

What I hear you saying is it taught you something about yourself, about how you percieve things - which is fine, as I stated prior.


I've met Alice walker, read alot of her work - it didn't inform my opinion/ideas about african americans (it didn't "teach me") - it changed the way I thought about those issues (it taught me about myself). It provided insight into myself, not give me an "education" about people different from myself.

Big difference.

 

Re: let me add - laima

Posted by one woman cine on January 17, 2007, at 12:59:52

In reply to Re: let me add - laima, posted by one woman cine on January 17, 2007, at 12:52:57

& I think you may be right, some people can think about it & have it enrich them, while for others they read about it and assume it's that way across the board.

How do stereotypes begin? How did it begin with muslims and 9/11? It began with images and words in popular culture that are accepted as true. When these ideas are challenged and dialogue ensues, that's a good thing.

But when there's no dialogue, then stereotypes, & discrimination begin, that's a bad thing.

I'm not condemning introspection and insight via the arts - it's a currency I deal in - but the danger is always tangible in having ideas/opinions about people presented as
a generalization.

Spike Lee, Alice Walker do not represent all african american - they represent their particular narrative and history as individuals. Maybe it overlaps, maybe it doesn't.

A white middle class woman going to therapy in LA may not have the experience of a white middle class woman going to therapy in Iowa.

It's too general.

 

Re: let me add - Ll one woman cine

Posted by MidnightBlue on January 17, 2007, at 13:09:57

In reply to Re: let me add - Ll Llurpsie_Noodle, posted by one woman cine on January 17, 2007, at 7:31:06


I guess I should never recommend anyone read a particular book again. That was one of the things I used to love to do--suggest books to people. Oh well....

MidnightBlue

 

why? (nm) MidnightBlue

Posted by one woman cine on January 17, 2007, at 13:13:18

In reply to Re: let me add - Ll one woman cine, posted by MidnightBlue on January 17, 2007, at 13:09:57

 

Re: let me add - Ll MidnightBlue

Posted by 10derHeart on January 17, 2007, at 13:17:28

In reply to Re: let me add - Ll one woman cine, posted by MidnightBlue on January 17, 2007, at 13:09:57

>>I guess I should never recommend anyone read a particular book again.

Sure, you should :-)

I think....there's just been a spirited, thoughtful, educational discussion here, and that's a good thing, no?

Of course, if you wanted to recommend a book to a Babbler and felt uncomfortable about doing on the boards, you could Babblemail them.

 

Re: let me add - Ll one woman cine

Posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 17, 2007, at 13:18:51

In reply to Re: let me add - Ll Llurpsie_Noodle, posted by one woman cine on January 17, 2007, at 7:31:06

> I totally understand your point, literature and fiction can enrich our lives and make us think.... but when generalizations are made about a group of people or a single person; it becomes very problematic....

And I didn't say this. I'm not sure why you are addressing this post to me. I am trying to support Deneb. That's why I posted.

But since you wrote to ME, I will respond.
>
> Generalizations lead to stereotyping.
>

generalizations *MAY* lead to stereotyping. Please keep in mind that the human mind has a number of very prominant biases that allow us to make rapid judgements about things we encounter. We tend to group things and events into categories. Chairs are good for sitting. This is a generalization, and it is very adaptational for us to recognize diverse specimens of chairs as all sharing the function of being good to sit in, but perhaps not so good for juggling. Is this a stereotype: that chairs are not good for juggling?

> Bipolar people are like this....& drug addicts are like this -
>
> or borderlines are like this - so read "Girl interrupted" - or "managing countertransference with borderlines".


I didn't write anything of the kind. Please don't make it seem like I did.

> I personally couldn't read the Bell Jar and say, oh well so-and-so is depressed so this is what she must be like. I can say, gee, this sounds like me and resonates with me, but I can't sit inside someone's skin and say the same thing.

The more I study psychology the more I find that the interesting "stuff" is found when people behave differently than we expect. We can learn so much from studying differences. We learn not only about the factors related to an individual behaving other-than-expected, but we also learn about the fallacies and limitations of our own expectations.

Psychology is different than literature though. In my experience, a compelling story can often give me the sensation of experiencing life through another lens. For instance, reading a book can allow us to explore feelings and motivations that we don't have access to in our everyday lives. We can live in someone else's shoes, depending on how much we trust the author, and depending on how open we are to that experience.

> IMO it is dangerous to make assumptions about anyone - if you can read a book and understand yourself better, fine.

I admit, I have assumptions about people. I assume, for example, that people on psycho-babble are supportive in their intent. I assume that Deneb is having a hard time understanding her mother's behavior, and I assume that one of the reasons for this could be because Deneb grew up in a different world than Deneb's mother. I formed these assumptions because I have read the things that Deneb has written in the months that I've been active on psycho-babble. I also assume that most people have 2 legs, and that we have mass. I'm not sure that assumptions, per se, are dangerous. Perhaps what is "dangerous" is when we observe a violation to our assumptions and are unable/unwilling to adjust our assumptions and expectations.

I do not subscribe to very many deterministic explanations of human behavior. An example might be: Deneb's mother is an immigrant THEREFORE she will behave ____. It's not really facilitative to understanding others if we subscribe to the view that human behavior behaves in a law-like linear fashion. The interesting thing is to note how if we put Deneb's mother and another person into the same exact circumstance they will probably behave differently. They will probably experience different things, and report different reasons for their behavior.


>
> It explicitly states in the FAQ about sensitivity and generalizing about people.
>
> Making assumptions about others based upon tv/movies etc. leads to stereotyping, which is why I provided the link before to illustrate this.
>
> I would not like to be categorized or have a generalization made about me by someone who read a book or saw a movie; thinking that was similiar to me - so that must be how I'm like....

Fair enough. I would not like to be the victim of a negative prejudice formed from exposure to a single book or movie either.

I hope that you can get to know me better to know where I was coming from in my post. I do not feel it's fair for you to respond to my post by using quotes from other's posts (that I didn't refer to, BTW) and I did feel somewhat accused by this response to my post.

I genuinely did wish to support Deneb. I apologize to you Deneb, for clouding up your thread with my unrelated response to another poster.

best,
-Ll

 

Thanks ! 10derHeart

Posted by one woman cine on January 17, 2007, at 13:19:18

In reply to Re: let me add - Ll MidnightBlue, posted by 10derHeart on January 17, 2007, at 13:17:28

ditto a thousand times over....

 

Re: let me add - Ll

Posted by one woman cine on January 17, 2007, at 13:24:17

In reply to Re: let me add - Ll one woman cine, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 17, 2007, at 13:18:51

I put the wrong name in the post - not to you, my apologies. (It happens...)

I'm having problems with boxes today...

You can only stereotype people, not objects etc., by the way - good post though.

 

Re: let me add - Ll MidnightBlue

Posted by ClearSkies on January 17, 2007, at 14:28:04

In reply to Re: let me add - Ll one woman cine, posted by MidnightBlue on January 17, 2007, at 13:09:57

>
> I guess I should never recommend anyone read a particular book again. That was one of the things I used to love to do--suggest books to people. Oh well....
>
> MidnightBlue


Not at all!!! You can see on the babble Books board that we share our opinions about books of all sorts. "Support and education", that's what this place is about. Reading enhances experience, don't you agree?

What are YOU reading now, MidnightBlue?

ClearSkies

 

What about Deneb?

Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 18, 2007, at 1:53:27

In reply to Re: let me add - Ll MidnightBlue, posted by ClearSkies on January 17, 2007, at 14:28:04

Are you OK....I haven't seen you mentioned in many posts. I feel this thread has gone off topic and am sorry your mom had the reaction she did.

 

Re: Joy Luck Club + stereotypes... - Auntie Mel one woman cine

Posted by AuntieMel on January 19, 2007, at 12:24:03

In reply to Joy Luck Club + stereotypes... - Auntie Mel, posted by one woman cine on January 16, 2007, at 11:16:13

My answer to Deneb was hurried - but it is also something we had talked about before so I didn't think it needed to be too long.

I agree that we shouldn't stereotype based on one book.

But I *do* think that some of your examples (those written - like the lone ranger - by people who have no knowledge in that area) were off the mark. Hopefully that won't cloud things.

GG, CS and KK are right - I am not likely to pre-judge anyone and that wasn't what I meant to do.

And I have spent a fair amount of time in China - not in the touristy spots - working alongside the people there. Various spots, too (north, south, east - not west.) Not to mention the many people I know and work with here who were raised over there.

Meaning that I have been around the (small the, not "THE") culture(s) of the PRC.

Again, the answer was hurried. But I recommended that book especially, not *just* because it might give some insight (though I did say 'help' her understand, not that it would make her understand) into where her mom is coming from and how she grew up. I also recommended it because it is largely about the complex relationship between the mom and the American raised daughter and how the daughter came to understand her mom.

So - anyway - there's more than one reason I want her to read this. But I am curious. Why do you think it's a bad choice?

 

Re: Thanks guys

Posted by AuntieMel on January 19, 2007, at 12:25:37

In reply to Re: Deep breath Deneb, posted by AuntieMel on January 12, 2007, at 12:19:17

Many thanks to KK, CS, GG (am I forgetting anyone?) for understanding where I was coming from.

 

Re: Question for Deneb Deneb

Posted by AuntieMel on January 19, 2007, at 12:26:44

In reply to Re: Thank-you everyone, posted by Deneb on January 14, 2007, at 17:40:54

Did you think I was stereotyping? If so, I deeply apologize.

 

Re: Question for Deneb AuntieMel

Posted by Deneb on January 19, 2007, at 12:35:23

In reply to Re: Question for Deneb Deneb, posted by AuntieMel on January 19, 2007, at 12:26:44

No I didn't think you were sterotyping. That's the last thing you would want to do. (((((AuntieMel))))

Deneb*


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