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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by laima on December 7, 2006, at 23:47:23
In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help, posted by bulldog2 on December 6, 2006, at 13:55:07
Well, the old Soviet Union had super high rates of depression and alcoholism-a lot of people lacked basic supplies and services, there were shortages constantly, and you had to beware of what you said where. And members of so called "primitive" cultures often faced all sorts of wars, diseases, famines, and lopsided nutrition. For example, I doubt the Medieval Europeans who subsisted on nothing but potatoes while dodging whatever plague remnants and wars that were going around were all feeling super. (Maybe many turned to religion for relief instead of "medicine"?) That all sounds pretty stressful. Of course, a packaged-up "Depression" as a medical condition may be a new epidemic, but I suspect that the syndrome itself has been around at varying levels for a long time. Beware the "noble savage".
> Personally I think this epidemic of depression is largely due to a society that stresses out and alienates individuals. There is a perception that material goods and wealth are the key to happiness. People chase wealth and can't understand why their unhappy when the family and all the major institutions that once sustained us have been severely damaged in recent years. I wonder how much depression there is in primitive societies in which people still live in harmony with nature and have strong family and societal networks. I guess it's easier to try and drug into believing we're happy than fixing the root causes of the problem.
Posted by bulldog2 on December 7, 2006, at 23:47:24
In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help » bulldog2, posted by laima on December 6, 2006, at 16:24:06
Of course primitive societies suffered stress, warfare and other negative conditions. I'm not talking about a utopian society either. But I think that people lived in the moment and didn't go to bed or stay isolated in their huts. You had to hunt, grow food or die. You celebrated when there was something to celebrate and you mourned when there was something to mourn.
Yes there has always been depression but if you look at our society with rampant murder rates, divorce and broken homes with schools and all our institutions under assult that is a cause for concern. People are pack animals and depend on the glue of these institutions to hold us together. As people become disconnected from each other there will be negative consequences to our mental health.
Posted by laima on December 7, 2006, at 23:47:24
In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help » laima, posted by bulldog2 on December 7, 2006, at 8:13:08
I don't buy the idea that other times or places suffered less murder or were devoid of family breakups, disconnect. If anything, I think we (in the West) are particularly shielded from premature death on a daily basis. One thing about group living- how does it work out for someone who is not fitting in to the group due to temperment or ideas? We're shielded from most infectious diseases currently, most of us are very fortunate not to have to worry about marouding groups of "others" who want to snatch our food resources, land, etc. Most of us are not being accused of casting spells. Look at how common migrations, practices such as sending your kids to go live with someone else because they can't be provided for, etc. have been over human history. I'm also not convinced that arranging one's affairs so as to best maximize chances for getting into heaven, considering an afterlife to be a reward or punishment, was/is "living in the moment". In a weird way, I think a lot of us, especially the atheist or agnostic bunch, are pretty concerned about how we are feeling, what we are doing, right this second. I also think that in addition to sweetened nostalgia, there is a lot of popular mythology still floating around which stems out of the old "noble savage", a Western invention. I think the term "primitive" itself is problematic. (Who's "primitive", who's "advanced", anyway? And "primitive" suggests being undeveloped, unsophisticated, amongst other things. Not too many of us can chop a good blade out of obsidian or read subtle cues for weather or the invisible tracks of animals:) ) But definately, we are social creatures, and that's pretty severely strained these days. We've been relieved of a lot of the stressors that other people dealt with, but got some big new doozies in exchange. At least we have telephones...
> Of course primitive societies suffered stress, warfare and other negative conditions. I'm not talking about a utopian society either. But I think that people lived in the moment and didn't go to bed or stay isolated in their huts. You had to hunt, grow food or die. You celebrated when there was something to celebrate and you mourned when there was something to mourn.
> Yes there has always been depression but if you look at our society with rampant murder rates, divorce and broken homes with schools and all our institutions under assult that is a cause for concern. People are pack animals and depend on the glue of these institutions to hold us together. As people become disconnected from each other there will be negative consequences to our mental health.
Posted by bulldog2 on December 7, 2006, at 23:47:25
In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help » bulldog2, posted by laima on December 7, 2006, at 11:21:36
Having been born born in the 1940's and growing up in the 50's and 60's I can tell you that dramatic changes have occured in this country (US). There were many cultural revolutions in this country in the 60's and early 70'. sexual revolution, hedonistic revolution, (drugs etc) and so on. Of course there was depression and other problems when I was younger. But in my neighborhood divorce was a fairly rare and most homes were stable. Today there is no doubt that divorce has sky rocketed in the last 40 years and probably more than half the children in this country live in homes where both parents are no longer present. Discipline has collapsed in schools, kids are on ritalin because they can't be controlled. In order to be aware of this trend you have to have lived long enough to see this evolve.
There was an article in National Geographic about ten societies where people lived the longest. These were not nobles savages but certainly societies that were very traditional and not technically advanced. A common denominater were stable familes and a strong sense of community. This lead to a good physical and mental health and a sense of well being. Please don't keep telling me there's always been divorce and despression. But it is a fact that after world war II that family and community has been weakned in America and there has been a price for that.If you don't undestand my point I give up. I'm don't want to waste my time debating this anymore. Believe what you want.
Posted by laima on December 7, 2006, at 23:47:25
In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help, posted by bulldog2 on December 7, 2006, at 12:59:55
Ok. I apologize for getting argumentative. I didn't mean to be antogonistic. I essentially agree with you and it would behoove me to be more respectful.
I guess I feel reactive and upset when I infer from my reading of threads that depression is somehow boils down to being a person's own fault, that people are depressed just because they are rich and chasing wealth instead of relationships or just accepting their bad genes, that depressed people are somehow delusional and indulgent for seeking help, that seeking medical help is futile anyway, etc. Medication is a joke, therapy is useless, society is sicker than ever- doom. What am I supposed to get out of this? I don't comprehend what would motivate such assertions in this context, if I'm understanding correctly.
Did I miscomprehend the thread or other threads?> Having been born born in the 1940's and growing up in the 50's and 60's I can tell you that dramatic changes have occured in this country (US). There were many cultural revolutions in this country in the 60's and early 70'. sexual revolution, hedonistic revolution, (drugs etc) and so on. Of course there was depression and other problems when I was younger. But in my neighborhood divorce was a fairly rare and most homes were stable. Today there is no doubt that divorce has sky rocketed in the last 40 years and probably more than half the children in this country live in homes where both parents are no longer present. Discipline has collapsed in schools, kids are on ritalin because they can't be controlled. In order to be aware of this trend you have to have lived long enough to see this evolve.
> There was an article in National Geographic about ten societies where people lived the longest. These were not nobles savages but certainly societies that were very traditional and not technically advanced. A common denominater were stable familes and a strong sense of community. This lead to a good physical and mental health and a sense of well being. Please don't keep telling me there's always been divorce and despression. But it is a fact that after world war II that family and community has been weakned in America and there has been a price for that.If you don't undestand my point I give up. I'm don't want to waste my time debating this anymore. Believe what you want.
Posted by laima on December 7, 2006, at 23:47:25
In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help, posted by bulldog2 on December 7, 2006, at 12:59:55
Bulldog2, I'm sorry. I see I seem to have projected an inaccurate tone into your post when I read it.
Posted by Phillipa on December 8, 2006, at 13:18:02
In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help » bulldog2, posted by laima on December 7, 2006, at 16:37:06
In a way I think he was saying that the Ozzie and Harriet show and Dennis the Menace were a simple society with not a lot of expectations. And we didn't take meds for feeling sad you just did your thing. Role models were assigned. Females stayed at home wathched kids , Men worked. now it's different. I could be totally wrong. Love Phillipa
Posted by ClearSkies on December 11, 2006, at 0:32:53
In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help » laima, posted by Phillipa on December 8, 2006, at 13:18:02
Very insightful, Phillipa. thank you.
I thought Leave It to Beaver was pathetic. That's all I got to see in reruns. And sometimes that Danny Thomas show. In Canada we had a contemporary show;"The Trouble With Tracy", a horrible comedic sitcom (with really lame jokes) that nonetheless showed the flaws with family relationships. Plus I loved the title character's fashion sense and straight long hair.
CS
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