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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 38. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rainbutterfly on September 14, 2006, at 8:30:52
The only thing I have been able to do to "deal" with this extreme feeling of anger, hurt, disgust and crushing disappointment is to shut down the computer. Immediately. At least I have learnt to do that and have never sent a true flame privately. I think doing that is disgusting behaviour. Sneaky and cowardly. I have received several flames over my time on the internet from different sources, different people, different countries and I am NOT impressed. I will never understand people like that. I never want to.
Again Only Supportive Replies, or don't bother.
Posted by ClearSkies on September 14, 2006, at 9:07:58
In reply to What .. when you want to post a flame? :( TRIGGER, posted by rainbutterfly on September 14, 2006, at 8:30:52
How about writing a flaming post offline (text document) and just sitting with it, instead of posting it or emailing it? That way you can express yourself, get it out.
Then read your flame in a couple of days and see how you feel about it. I know that when I get upset reading something on the internet, my immediate reaction is to "strike back". This has always, always, struck ME and not the target I had in mind. A hard lesson for me and one I spent a lot of time being resentful over.Sometimes I'll just sit on my hands and not try to type at all.
ClearSkies
Posted by zenhussy on September 14, 2006, at 11:31:13
In reply to What .. when you want to post a flame? :( TRIGGER, posted by rainbutterfly on September 14, 2006, at 8:30:52
>>> At least I have learnt to do that and have never sent a true flame privately.
what is a "true flame"? and are you sure that you've never, ever in your life mailed, PMd, babblemailed, instant messenged or some other form of electronic communication sent anything to another that another person might...just might...consider more than innocuous? after all it can be hard to determine what another will read of one's words....difficult format to communicate effectively in this online biz.
that takes some massive self restraint to not go off at the drop of a hat...anything you can share other than turning off the computer that has helped you with this lesson? so many folks struggle with this any input you choose to give would be of much benefit to many.
inspirational to read your changing awareness that you're posting here with us all and the world! thanks cocooon!
Posted by zenhussy on September 14, 2006, at 11:35:14
In reply to Re: What .. when you want to post a flame? :( TRIGGER » rainbutterfly, posted by ClearSkies on September 14, 2006, at 9:07:58
>>> ...my immediate reaction is to "strike back". This has always, always, struck ME and not the target I had in mind. A hard lesson for me and one I spent a lot of time being resentful over.
>>>Sometimes I'll just sit on my hands and not try to type at all.that is a hard lesson and one that some folks learn the hard way a few times before it sticks. thank you for sharing that as it is illustrative of how acting on feelings/emotions in the moment may not always be the best course of action in the long run.
yeah that certainly is one that takes time and much frustration for most. glad you've found a more middle path through CS.
sounds like your year sober and your meditation practice are helping....yoga too, right? excellent. most excellent to read. :)
Posted by rainbutterfly on September 14, 2006, at 12:56:44
In reply to Re: what is a true flame? » rainbutterfly, posted by zenhussy on September 14, 2006, at 11:31:13
thanks so much.
Posted by rainbutterfly on September 14, 2006, at 12:58:43
In reply to Re: What .. when you want to post a flame? :( TRIGGER » rainbutterfly, posted by ClearSkies on September 14, 2006, at 9:07:58
Thanks Clearskies for sharing your wisdom and experience with me here xo butterfly ox
Posted by Phillipa on September 14, 2006, at 15:07:23
In reply to Re: a very hard lesson but a good one » ClearSkies, posted by zenhussy on September 14, 2006, at 11:35:14
I agree so much improvement in a year. Congrats. Clear Skies. Love Phillipa
Posted by ClearSkies on September 14, 2006, at 16:26:03
In reply to Re: a very hard lesson but a good one » ClearSkies, posted by zenhussy on September 14, 2006, at 11:35:14
> sounds like your year sober and your meditation practice are helping....yoga too, right? excellent. most excellent to read. :)
>Yes, it turns out I'm a good student - of sobriety, of yoga, of living. Not so good at being employable, though I'm sure it will come.
Cheers
CS
Posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 10:28:37
In reply to Re: a very hard lesson but a good one » zenhussy, posted by ClearSkies on September 14, 2006, at 16:26:03
Rainbutterfly,
When I want to be deliberately hurtful, I try to write it down on a piece of paper. Then I can draw little evil smileys and do a lot of illustrations to try to figure out my feelings. I also like the pen and paper becuase I can make a little bubble diagram. each bubble has a thought, and maybe a reason for the thought, or feeling. and I try to connect the bubbles- try to figure out what happened first; what feeling is strongest, what feeling is more authentic; what feeling is masking the others. In my case it's often rage, or sadness. Then, once I've figured it out, or at least drawn a big gigantic tangle of disorganized emotions and memories, I can sit still again. Rejoin the civilized world. Last few times I did this, I read it the next day, after sleeping on it. It was different. Some of the connections seemed irrelevant. Some of the strongest emotions had evaporated.Colored pens are the best.
-ll
Posted by rainbutterfly on September 15, 2006, at 13:58:53
In reply to Re: a very hard lesson but a good one » ClearSkies, posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 10:28:37
ll thanks! great reply. I will do it!
It usually does seem "worth" putting my pain out there...... in the end. So cool if anyone else learns anything worthwhile or postive, to them, from any of it too (sigh) I know if I had read some of these posts 2 years ago, I would have made some very different choices.
Being "intentionally hurtful".. that was what I was thinking of.
No more replies please, especially questioning definitions or use of words. That is not what I am looking for here.
(cocoon (no)..)
caterpillar xo
Posted by corafree on September 18, 2006, at 21:38:27
In reply to Re: what is a true flame? » zenhussy, posted by rainbutterfly on September 14, 2006, at 12:56:44
What is a 'true flame' anyway? I just wanna' know. I don't think I've ever heard this expression. What the heck is it?
cf
Posted by rainbutterfly on September 19, 2006, at 8:17:12
In reply to Re: what is a true flame?, posted by corafree on September 18, 2006, at 21:38:27
To me, a "true flame" means "ill intent". End of story.
I guess semantics could be argued endlessly, on this. I am not "up for that" though.
Take care
(This is now the second time I have asked for no more replies to this thread. Thanks in anticipation).
Posted by rainbutterfly on September 19, 2006, at 8:27:49
In reply to Re: what is a true flame? » corafree, posted by rainbutterfly on September 19, 2006, at 8:17:12
I know I am not perfect. Never said I was. I do know what is in my own heart though.... and I am not without insight into others.
Regards to all,
Butterfly
Posted by gardenergirl on September 19, 2006, at 11:36:53
In reply to Re: what is a true flame? » rainbutterfly, posted by rainbutterfly on September 19, 2006, at 8:27:49
> I know I am not perfect. Never said I was. I do know what is in my own heart though....
That's what's important, I think. I find that gut checks and heart checks are quite helpful when I start to feel off-balance for whatever reason. I do much better when listening to my gut and my heart when my head starts to question and get confused about external stuff.
Take care,
gg
Posted by corafree on September 19, 2006, at 12:56:05
In reply to Re: what is a true flame? » corafree, posted by rainbutterfly on September 19, 2006, at 8:17:12
<(This is now the second time I have asked for no more replies to this thread. Thanks in anticipation).>
I'm so sorry I followed up, ... to you.
I should have just asked the question ... what is a true flame ... and not checked the add name of previous poster box.
I was inquiring w/o any offense, but, in my heart, I feel offended by what you say above.
?properbabblemanners, cf
Posted by rainbutterfly on September 19, 2006, at 13:16:15
In reply to Re: what is a true flame? » rainbutterfly, posted by corafree on September 19, 2006, at 12:56:05
no offense intended.
take care.
Posted by rainbutterfly on September 19, 2006, at 13:17:05
In reply to Knowing what's in your heart » rainbutterfly, posted by gardenergirl on September 19, 2006, at 11:36:53
Thanks gg
xo butterfly
Posted by rainbutterfly on September 19, 2006, at 14:43:25
In reply to Re: Knowing what's in your heart » gardenergirl, posted by rainbutterfly on September 19, 2006, at 13:17:05
PS Thanks for writing back corafree, and saying how you felt. I realise I was hasty posting that - still learning here. I hope you won't "write me off" because of my bluntness (if I could have edited my post, I would have done... I am used to boards with an edit feature. I do think that this board is a good "learning experience" for me already .....)
Second guessing almost everything I write, here it is anyway,
butterfly
Posted by gardenergirl on September 19, 2006, at 15:02:33
In reply to Re: a very hard lesson but a good one » ClearSkies, posted by zenhussy on September 14, 2006, at 11:35:14
> that is a hard lesson and one that some folks learn the hard way a few times before it sticks. thank you for sharing that as it is illustrative of how acting on feelings/emotions in the moment may not always be the best course of action in the long run.I wonder how well the lesson sticks when the action gets "disappeared". Disappeared though not forgotten. We don't always have a safety net or get mulligans.
CS is wise, indeed.
gg
Posted by rainbutterfly on September 20, 2006, at 6:25:59
In reply to Re: a very hard lesson but a good one » zenhussy, posted by gardenergirl on September 19, 2006, at 15:02:33
And even a caterpillar hiding in a "cocoon" can see that!
:D
Posted by zenhussy on September 20, 2006, at 9:42:00
In reply to Re: a very hard lesson but a good one » zenhussy, posted by gardenergirl on September 19, 2006, at 15:02:33
zh wrote:>>>that is a hard lesson and one that some folks learn the hard way a few times before it sticks. thank you for sharing that as it is illustrative of how acting on feelings/emotions in the moment may not always be the best course of action in the long run.
gg replied:>>I wonder how well the lesson sticks when the action gets "disappeared". Disappeared though not forgotten. We don't always have a safety net or get mulligans.
gg,is there any other way you might have phrased this for a client? we're lost as to what your meaning here is. perhaps this is over our head? or maybe you have some meaning that you could better clarify if you have something you intend for us to understand.
we wish we had the advantage of your years of study....alas we do not. if you would be so kind as to share your professional and personal insights here we'd be happy to attempt to understand exactly what you're trying to convey.
until then.....huh? help us out here as you have an edge for understanding this situation that many others lack. we'd be so fortunate if you would indulge the board with your knowledge.
--zh
Posted by zenhussy on September 20, 2006, at 9:56:55
In reply to Re: a very hard lesson but a good one » zenhussy, posted by ClearSkies on September 14, 2006, at 16:26:03
>>>Yes, it turns out I'm a good student - of sobriety, of yoga, of living. Not so good at being employable, though I'm sure it will come.
cs,
being employable is not something to define oneself by. and yes it will come with time. for now continuing on with managing the stress/anxiety with yoga and other techniques you've gathered along the way you'll most certainly get to a point where you consider yourself employable or you'll be at that point where it is no longer important enough to use that as a measuring stick.
keep using your wisdom and compassion as you have a lot to be proud of from your work over this year.
Posted by ClearSkies on September 20, 2006, at 11:59:32
In reply to we're not defined by our earning potential » ClearSkies, posted by zenhussy on September 20, 2006, at 9:56:55
:-)
thanks, Zen.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 20, 2006, at 16:01:49
In reply to how would you phrase this for a client? » gardenergirl, posted by zenhussy on September 20, 2006, at 9:42:00
> gg replied:>>I wonder how well the lesson sticks when the action gets "disappeared". Disappeared though not forgotten. We don't always have a safety net or get mulligans.
>
> gg,
>
> is there any other way you might have phrased this for a client? ...Goodness gracious, what flattery! Please give yourself more credit, zen. I have faith in your understanding of this topic. Experience interacting on the internet would surely be more relevant and useful versus any potential benefit from formal education or experience with professional psychology.
To answer your subject line question, how I might discuss this with a client would be too dependent on the specific situation with that client, so any wording I would choose would be message and recipient specific.
My message in the post to you was that it might be harder to sustain the learning of the type of "hard lesson" you refer to if the representation of the behavior, for example a post on an internet forum, "disappears" (for example is removed from viewing access). To the person who could learn the "hard lesson", having the evidence of the action "disappear" could feel similar to the defense mechanism of "undoing", or as if the action was never taken. (See http://www.planetpsych.com/zPsychology_101/defense_mechanisms.htm for descriptions of different defense mechanisms.) That "disappearing" of the action might make it easier to forget any lessons learned and could lead to repeating the behavior in the future.
Now, if the representation of the behavior is documented in some way, for example in a computer file or in the case of your question here, a client's file, the action related to the "lesson" is not forgotten. It's not invisible. Anyone external to the act/lesson learning could have access to the stimulus for the lesson and might learn from the other's behavior and any consequences. But the one who has the most to learn from the act, as you describe the person acting from "feelings/emotions in the moment", may no longer benefit from the lesson if the evidence of it seems to no longer exist.
That's pretty much the message.
gg
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 20, 2006, at 18:21:40
In reply to Re: a very hard lesson but a good one » llrrrpp, posted by rainbutterfly on September 15, 2006, at 13:58:53
> No more replies please, especially questioning definitions or use of words. That is not what I am looking for here.
I'm sorry if that's not what you're looking for, but I think it's more welcoming in general if people feel free to reply to any posts they want. As long as they're civil, etc.
Bob
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