![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 56 to 80 of 99. Go back in thread:
Posted by verne on March 29, 2006, at 1:22:53
In reply to Re: the BIG *HUGE* deal with PORN.. » spriggy, posted by gabbi~1 on March 29, 2006, at 0:28:44
Ted Bundy - 29
Crusaders - 1,000,000,000
I'm a christian, baptized in the Spirit. At the very bottom of my list of things that need changing is worring about how dressed somebody is!
love always,
verne
Posted by verne on March 29, 2006, at 2:10:54
In reply to the BIG *HUGE* deal with PORN.., posted by spriggy on March 29, 2006, at 0:17:37
How many "spirit-filled" pastors and pastor wives go beserk and go on a murder spree?
What fruit of the Spirit is that?
verne - christian, touched by God, reborn in the Spirit, growing.
Posted by verne on March 29, 2006, at 2:21:29
In reply to Re: the BIG *HUGE* deal with PORN.., posted by verne on March 29, 2006, at 2:10:54
and the church rallies around the murderer! The BTK KILLER, an adept serial killer, a mass murderer, was a CHRISTIAN. The church rallied around him, showering him with forgiveness, as they do the Pastor Winkler killer.
Don't talk about Bundy unless you're willing to embrace all the other "christian" mass murderers.
verne
Posted by verne on March 29, 2006, at 2:29:54
In reply to Bundy, posted by verne on March 29, 2006, at 2:21:29
Posted by special_k on March 29, 2006, at 3:25:05
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » special_k, posted by gabbi~1 on March 28, 2006, at 23:54:26
> I'm surprised at the idea of sex without love being somehow.. wrong, or less worthy.
Sex that is not loving. It was more about that.
Objectification vs an act of kindness / lovingness.
> The idea of two people being together being the most acceptable form of "coupling" is more of an artificial invention than depictions of people having sex in various different ways.If it can be an activity between two subjects I don't see why it couldn't be an activity between three or four or whatever...
> I find it contradictory to dislike the idea of men "J*acking off" to a picture, and then ask a man if it's "okay" or if he would be "proud" if his daughter, or sister was doing it.If he would be "okay" or "proud" that other men were "j*cking off" to pictures of his daughter or sister etc.
Some women say they like to be treated as objects.
But then... Some women don't know any different...> Men will always "J*ck" off thinking about attractive women
I think thinking about is different from viewing pictures...
> Now You've said "You don't know what her goals are, her ideals, her personality"
> Well, neither do you, and you don't know whether or not she's completely satisfied with what she's doing.Sure. Would you pose for other people Gabbi? How about you other women who don't have a problem with porn? Why not?
> Making it about female/male sexuality, is just another form of repression.
The sex industry is about sex...
Posted by special_k on March 29, 2006, at 3:27:01
In reply to Re: please rephrase that, posted by special_k on March 28, 2006, at 23:55:57
> maybe people dont' think it is a real possibility that the person in the pic is harmed by the knowledge that other people are viewing them in that way...
but then for you women who wouldn't pose...
or be videotaped...why not?
Posted by gabbi~1 on March 29, 2006, at 4:14:28
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by special_k on March 29, 2006, at 3:25:05
So you think it's different thinking about how someone looks, rather than looking at a picture of someone *You* think. I think that's splitting hairs, and trying to stretch that into a realistic argument for the acceptable/unacceptable, is well..
impossible.
> Sure. Would you pose for other people Gabbi? How about you other women who don't have a problem with porn? Why not?
>I have and I would again.
Interesting that your question was phrased "why not?"> > Making it about female/male sexuality, is just another form of repression.
>
> The sex industry is about sex...The sex industry is about making money.
Posted by special_k on March 29, 2006, at 4:35:45
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » special_k, posted by gabbi~1 on March 29, 2006, at 4:14:28
> Would you pose for other people Gabbi?
> I have and I would again.
For your partner... Or for public consumption (so that you wouldn't have minded if the picture was duplicated and passed on to other people)
Posted by special_k on March 29, 2006, at 4:43:31
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » special_k, posted by gabbi~1 on March 29, 2006, at 4:14:28
actually don't worry about it.
i dont' want to argue
Posted by milly on March 29, 2006, at 7:06:17
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by special_k on March 29, 2006, at 4:43:31
I'm sorry I even bothered to tell you about it, I feel so upset that I inadvertantly caused this anger and hurt
I guess the rape does cloud my view of it, knowing that he 'objectified' women and then found it acceptable to force his way into my home and into me probably makes me hope that the same situation won't happen to others but it does.
As for needing porn to j*rk off to, do you need it to go for a cr*p as well? or maybe just a better imagination!
Anyway if anyone is interested the UK papers carried the story this weekend about how newsagents will be required to stock this kind of material above childrens eye level which if you read my original post was what had got me annoyed in the first place, so I'm not the only one that thinks it is unnessesary to expose children to this.
I thought I was behaving as any mother might to protect her children but was I supposed to say 'look at that, maybe one day you could grow up and do that so that men can j*rk off to your picture'
milly
Posted by gabbi~1 on March 29, 2006, at 8:45:42
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger, posted by special_k on March 29, 2006, at 4:43:31
All You had to do was read my earlier posts on the subject.
Posted by Dinah on March 29, 2006, at 10:04:29
In reply to Re: Porn...what's the big deal? posible trigger » special_k, posted by gabbi~1 on March 28, 2006, at 23:54:26
Thanks Gabbi.
You managed to say what I tried several times to say, without being able to find the words.
Part of my brand of feminism includes not seeing women as helpless victims in things like this. Celebrities pose nude all the time, and I doubt they were forced to. Clearly some women enjoy their bodies and don't mind having them photographed.
It certainly isn't universally considered a shameful thing. Some people would find it something to admire.
Posted by Dinah on March 29, 2006, at 10:15:38
In reply to Re Hi I'm really upset poss trigger, posted by milly on March 29, 2006, at 7:06:17
Milly, nothing I said means that I don't think magazines shouldn't be left uncovered at eye level. I think it's either a law in my area, or else stores are sensitive to the issue, because they're always partially covered and up high. I wouldn't like it if I were confronted with magazines at eye level with my son. There's a time and place for everything.
I'm sorry that you had such an awful experience that was associated in your mind with the viewing of pornography. I can understand that it's a sensitive issue to you.
But I'm sure you know that a fairly large percentage of the male population enjoys visual depictions of naked women. And that most of them are perfectly nice people who just appreciate the female form. I think it would be hard to find a guy who hadn't at one time or another enjoyed an issue of Playgirl.
Posted by Dinah on March 29, 2006, at 10:30:26
In reply to the BIG *HUGE* deal with PORN.., posted by spriggy on March 29, 2006, at 0:17:37
I'm sure you've also had experience in marriages where spending destroyed a marriage, workaholism destroyed a marriage, alchoholism destroyed a marriage, etc.
Most anything, done to excess, can harm a family.
Ted Bundy was hardly an average user of typical porn. He can come up with whatever excuse he wants in retrospect. But the fact was that he was a killer. He liked killing, he got off on killing. It's a big leap from enjoying looking at naked bodies and enjoying killing. Now, since he had that sort of predilictions, he may have been involved with violent porn. That's a different thing entirely.
Posted by Tamar on March 29, 2006, at 10:36:50
In reply to Re Hi I'm really upset poss trigger, posted by milly on March 29, 2006, at 7:06:17
> I'm sorry I even bothered to tell you about it, I feel so upset that I inadvertantly caused this anger and hurt
You didn't cause any anger and hurt. It's just a very emotive subject. And I'm glad you told us about it. I think what you did was very brave and very necessary.
> I guess the rape does cloud my view of it, knowing that he 'objectified' women and then found it acceptable to force his way into my home and into me probably makes me hope that the same situation won't happen to others but it does.
Well, maybe it *informs* your view of it, rather than *clouding* your view. And of course your view is perfectly valid.
> As for needing porn to j*rk off to, do you need it to go for a cr*p as well? or maybe just a better imagination!
I'm all for use of imagination!
> Anyway if anyone is interested the UK papers carried the story this weekend about how newsagents will be required to stock this kind of material above childrens eye level which if you read my original post was what had got me annoyed in the first place, so I'm not the only one that thinks it is unnessesary to expose children to this.
I totally agree with you. I believe children should not be exposed to porn. End of story. If an adult deliberately shows a child a porn mag, it constitutes child sexual abuse. So I certainly don't think it's OK for newsagents to stock porn at children's eye level.
> I thought I was behaving as any mother might to protect her children but was I supposed to say 'look at that, maybe one day you could grow up and do that so that men can j*rk off to your picture'
If you're anything like me, the idea of your kids being part of the sex industry is very triggering because of your personal experience. I also wonder (if you're anything like me) whether as well as wanting to protect your children you want to protect yourself.
I find public porn very threatening. To me if a man reads porn in public it's in the same category as flashing. I think, "If he'll read porn in public, what wouldn't he do?" And by extension, seeing porn in shops elicits the same feelings of fear. I wonder which unknown men might be planning to buy those magazines, and whether I'm safe from them. Because after an assault you realise you just NEVER know who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. The men who raped me were nice, decent people who (apart from raping me) were charming and polite. How was I supposed to know? How do I know whether the next man I talk to is a rapist? I don’t.
And I don’t want to demonise all men, but I think men don’t always understand that however nice they are, and however much they know *they* would never rape a woman, once we’ve been violated we no longer trust our judgement to be able to distinguish between rapists and non-rapists. And naturally enough, men feel very hurt by the idea that we can’t be 100% certain that they’re not rapists.
Thanks for raising the subject, Milly. I know the subsequent discussion has been painful for you. I don’t hold the view that porn is inherently bad, but I certainly haven’t seen much that I like. And I’m going to rant about that next. Feel free to ignore it if the subject’s getting tough for you. But I hope you will congratulate yourself for your courage and strength of character in expressing your views in public, both at your local newsagent and here at Babble.
Tamar
Posted by Dinah on March 29, 2006, at 10:37:28
In reply to Re: Re Hi I'm really upset poss trigger » milly, posted by Dinah on March 29, 2006, at 10:15:38
Posted by Tamar on March 29, 2006, at 10:51:20
In reply to (((((Milly))))) *****trigger***** » milly, posted by Tamar on March 29, 2006, at 10:36:50
Yeah, well, no one expected me to be able to stay away from this thread, surely? :)
I’ll put my cards on the table first:
1. I have been raped and sexually assaulted on several occasions by various people, including friends and people in positions of authority in my life. These experiences have coloured my views of sexual politics.
2. When I look at porn I find it intensely arousing. My response is both biological and psychological.
3. I did not learn to masturbate until I’d been sexually active for five years (and after the rape and three of the sexual assaults). I chose quite deliberately to try to learn to do it in an attempt to reclaim my body and my sexuality for myself. I didn’t use porn because I felt that the sexual assaults had made me an object and when I looked at porn I felt uncomfortable with viewing other women or men as objects of my pleasure.
4. I have a professional interest in how sexuality is depicted and portrayed in popular culture.So now you know where I’m coming from. And here are my thoughts about porn:
1. Many people enjoy looking at other people naked, especially when the context is sexualised. I don’t believe there’s anything inherently wrong in seeking the pleasure we can find in admiring another person’s body, as long as we are not harming the other person in any way.
2. I believe masturbation is beautiful and important, and while I don’t think porn is necessary for a healthy solo sex life, I don’t think it’s a bad thing. I certainly don’t think I’m in a position to judge other people for their use of porn. After all, I find it arousing too.Having said that:
1. Porn is a multimillion dollar enterprise. It makes more money than all of Hollywood and all of rock music put together. Despite this, it usually has poor production values and is of generally poor quality. And the money does not line the pockets of the actors and actresses: the real money is in the hands of the producers.
2. Porn is ubiquitous. Its influence is enormous. It is widely considered acceptable nowadays, in contrast to previous generations. It plays a powerful role in western culture.
3. Masturbation was once considered profoundly unhealthy, but these days the medical world is inclined to suggest that in fact masturbation is good for us. The acceptability of porn has arisen in tandem with the acceptability of masturbation and also with an increasing sense of the individual’s right to sexual self-determination.
4. Studies about links between porn and sexual violence have not yet proved conclusive, though there does seem to be some evidence to suggest that consuming large quantities of violent porn is associated with violent behaviour. But it’s hard to know which is the chicken and which is the egg.
5. Much of the imagery used in porn emphasises power imbalances between men and women. (I’m not going to talk here about gay porn because I’m mainly interested in the influence porn has in culture and society, and gay/lesbian porn is much less mainstream. Oh, and when I say lesbian porn, I don’t mean the ‘girl-on-girl action’ which is aimed at straight people. I mean lesbian porn produced by and for lesbians.)
6. In most TV, magazine and film porn it is difficult to find images that adequately convey a mutually pleasurable and enriching experience. Part of the reason for this is the legal restrictions against depicting an erect penis. Another reason is that a great deal of porn depicts situations in which women are vulnerable and depend on men either for rescue or for validation.
7. Internet porn bypasses the difficulties of showing an erect penis, but unfortunately tends to depict situations in which women are ‘bitches’ or ‘sluts’ who are tricked by men into sexual contact they don’t want but which they ultimately experience as orgasmic because deep down they desire to be dominated. This is, of course, the semiotics of sexual assault dressed up as a borderline SM fantasy. And I’m disturbed at how this intersects with people’s real life experiences, because however we understand issues of freedom of choice, it seems to me that the women who work in porn are not likely to have had as much choice, advantage or privilege as women who work in careers which pay at a similar level.
8. If porn is widely consumed and widely considered acceptable, its influence should not be underestimated. My concern is not so much whether porn engenders a lack of respect for women, but whether it serves to reinforce the already massive gender inequalities in society (and of course, racial inequalities, because race often plays an important role in porn), and to sexualise those inequalities.
9. Porn not only depicts women as vulnerable, it also frequently depicts men as aggressive, out of control, dangerous, insensitive and preoccupied only with their own gratification. If I am concerned about the effect that viewing porn has on men’s view of women, I am also concerned about the effect it has on men’s view of themselves (and for that matter on the way women view men, since women use porn too).
10. Most mature and responsible adults can use porn without becoming monsters, and can leave the images aside when they’re finished with them. But the images adults use are also the images children use. The only arousing material available to children (I mean kids in their early teens) is material designed for adults. I really think that teenagers are at genuine risk from porn, because they’re still trying to make sense of their new feelings and bodily experiences and the adult world. I think the images used in most pornography are not suitable for kids, in the same way that films made for adults contain images of sex and violence that aren’t suitable for kids. The difference is that there’s a healthy children’s cinema but there’s no healthy teenage alternative to adult porn. If you’re shouting at your computer right now, I’ve probably touched on something very sensitive. And I should say that I’m not advocating porn for children, but I *am* saying that we shouldn’t ignore the fact that many children use porn or encounter porn, and I think it’s genuinely unhelpful for them.My solution (because I like to set the world to rights):
1. We need better porn. It should be produced to better production values and there should be more variety. I don’t want to see a man ejaculate on a woman’s breasts after every sexual encounter. If my sex life were like that I’d have stopped bothering years ago. We need funny porn, nostalgic porn, poignant porn, gritty porn, gentle porn, ironic porn and educational porn. We need a lot more vanilla porn.
2. We need to find ways of engaging fantasies about life rather than fantasies about death. So much porn is predicated on the idea of the sex war. I’d like to see porn that reflects the tenderness of sexual experience, whether in a casual encounter or in a 50-year marriage.
3. We need porn that’s less disposable: porn that we can watch over and over and still enjoy. Sometimes I get the impression that men (and possibly women) use porn as a means of reaching orgasm as fast as possible, and as soon as it’s over it’s time to clean up and hide the magazine back under the bed as if the images in the fantasy didn’t belong in our regular lives. Wouldn’t it be nicer to use porn as a means of increasing and sustaining pleasure, rather than getting it over as quickly as possible?
4. I don’t think it would take much imagination to make porn that affirms women and men as equals, or that affirms sexuality as a source of comfort and safety. Of course, many people have fantasies about domination or submission, or about dangerous sex, but I struggle to see why those particular fantasies have to be so very widespread. Again, I’d like to see more variety.
5. I’m going to end with an example, and it could be rather transgressive, but I hope no one will find it actually offensive. In my professional life I have encountered a great deal of interracial porn and I find it overwhelmingly disturbing. It’s often presented either as a white man’s fantasy of his wife being overpowered by a dangerous black man, or as a white man’s fantasy of overpowering an exotic foreign woman. I find it disturbing not only for political reasons, but also for personal reasons because I have had lovers who weren’t the same race as me and I hate to see the way people from ethnic minorities are objectified in porn. I feel it pollutes my memories of my own experience. For example, I spent only one night with my friend F, but I remember that it looked beautiful: the contrast between very dark skin and very pale skin emphasised the lines and curves our bodies made together. And when I see that same contrast used as a means of emphasising images of physical, psychological or political violence, it sickens me.Bring on the beauty.
Tamar
Posted by Dinah on March 29, 2006, at 11:02:30
In reply to Very long rant!, posted by Tamar on March 29, 2006, at 10:51:20
I don't disagree with you.
Except to say that I've either been quite lucky or quite careful in choosing what I've seen. I've certainly never seen anything violent, and I don't think I've ever seen anything where the women and men weren't depicted as consenting adults who enjoyed what they were doing. I'm pretty sure I'd walk away from anything else.
And while I wouldn't raise a brow if I found Playgirls in my son's room when he's a bit older (he still thinks girls have cooties), I would have a serious talk with him if I found him viewing images or listening to music where women are treated with disrespect.
Posted by Dinah on March 29, 2006, at 11:15:44
In reply to Re: the BIG *HUGE* deal with PORN.., posted by verne on March 29, 2006, at 1:22:53
> Ted Bundy - 29
>
> Crusaders - 1,000,000,000I understand that you're upset, but the civility rules of this site ask that you be sensitive to the feelings of others, even if yours are hurt.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dinah, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Of course, Dr. Bob is the final arbiter of deputy actions, and can reverse them if he thinks they're incorrect.
Posted by verne on March 29, 2006, at 11:25:45
In reply to Please be sensitive » verne, posted by Dinah on March 29, 2006, at 11:15:44
I'm sorry as usual. I wouldn't mind if I were blocked.
Verne
Posted by gabbi~1 on March 29, 2006, at 11:28:32
In reply to Very long rant!, posted by Tamar on March 29, 2006, at 10:51:20
As I mentioned before, I too have been 'victimized' in the true sense of the word.
What makes me angry as H*ll are people who try or tried to take my voice away again by saying "you couldn't really like what you are doing, you might *think* you do, but I don't believe it"
It's something that insults me and perpetuates the victim status under the guise of concern.
How many people ask, with the same intense pitying concern "I wonder if that married woman with three kids is really happy, does she know what she's doing?"
"What about that clerk at the gas station?"
All of us make our choices relative to our circumstance, and who knows if those circumstances were different what we would choose? Or what we would look back on and think, "I guess I didn't really like that as much as I thought"To say a woman is being objectified and denying her claim that she truly enjoys her sexuality is in itself objectifying and infantilizing.
Polarizing intelligence and substance and the enjoyment earthy sexuality and the celebration of taste and touch and all things sensual, under the guise of concern, and holding it hostage to intellectualized concepts and theories is sadly repressive, and prejudiced.
Women have been abused in various ways long before the advent of porn on glossy paper.
Abuse is something that will find it's way into any corner of the world, for any reason, and to connect it to one thing, or one area is naive and unrealistic.
The mindset of the abuser exists unto itself and will find it's way of acting on the desire to inflict pain. It existed when women were forced to wear dresses down to their ankles, and when they had to wear chastity belts.
Hugh Heffner was one of the first people to hire women, and hire black people to work in his corporation, (not pose in his magazine)
Stockholders threatened him, when he hired minorities. He didn't change his hiring practices.His attitude was truly about sexual liberation, it wasn't an acceptable way to disguise his desire to abuse and objectify.
And yet many institutions that preach love and acceptance and morality are responsible for abuses of power.I'm not glorifying the porn industry, or demonizing the latter. What I'm saying is, that a label or philosophy is, not and never has been indicative of the behaviour of all those who are part of it. Abusers and those who respect the integrity of others are found in all aspects of life.
Posted by gabbi~1 on March 29, 2006, at 12:02:02
In reply to Very long rant!, posted by Tamar on March 29, 2006, at 10:51:20
I know you don't P.B.S people thoughtlessly, so I'm asking because I'm curious.
Why is it insensitive to say that the Christian Crusades caused 100000 deaths, but not considered insensitive to say that porn was what caused Ted Bundy to kill 29 women?And thanks for thanking me ; )
I'm always flattered by that.
You too Verne
quack..
Posted by Dinah on March 29, 2006, at 12:12:08
In reply to Dinah, a sincere question, posted by gabbi~1 on March 29, 2006, at 12:02:02
I guess it's a matter of my interpretation of what was written. I saw the one as an assumption of association, which I didn't see as a PBS.
I did however as a poster write that I didn't believe there was a true association, and why.
And Dr. Bob can always correct anything he wishes to correct. (I really like that he can do that.)
I was thinking of a way to write a bravo to your last post. I thought it was very empowering to women.
Posted by gabbi~1 on March 29, 2006, at 12:41:06
In reply to Re: Dinah, a sincere question » gabbi~1, posted by Dinah on March 29, 2006, at 12:12:08
> I guess it's a matter of my interpretation of what was written. I saw the one as an assumption of association, which I didn't see as a PBS.
>
> I did however as a poster write that I didn't believe there was a true association, and why.
>
> And Dr. Bob can always correct anything he wishes to correct. (I really like that he can do that.)No , I *knew* you'd have a reasoned answer, and I just wanted to know what it was, that's all.
> I was thinking of a way to write a bravo to your last post. I thought it was very empowering to women.
You just did!
Thank you.
very much
Posted by Tamar on March 29, 2006, at 13:56:54
In reply to Another Very long rant! Poss Trigger, posted by gabbi~1 on March 29, 2006, at 11:28:32
Hi Gabbi,
> As I mentioned before, I too have been 'victimized' in the true sense of the word.
> What makes me angry as H*ll are people who try or tried to take my voice away again by saying "you couldn't really like what you are doing, you might *think* you do, but I don't believe it"Yes, I can imagine. Do you feel that it’s been happening in this discussion? Do you feel that your voice has been taken away?
> It's something that insults me and perpetuates the victim status under the guise of concern.
> How many people ask, with the same intense pitying concern "I wonder if that married woman with three kids is really happy, does she know what she's doing?"Maybe they should! Did you know I’m a married woman with three kids? If so, you probably also know that I have no idea what I’m doing!
> "What about that clerk at the gas station?"
> All of us make our choices relative to our circumstance, and who knows if those circumstances were different what we would choose? Or what we would look back on and think, "I guess I didn't really like that as much as I thought"That’s true. Women are exploited in all kinds of employment and not just in the sex industry. And indeed women are sexually exploited in other kinds of employment too. I think I worry particularly about women’s freedom of choice in the sex industry because of the culture. For one thing, a very high proportion of women working in the sex industry have been sexually abused as children. I am deeply concerned about the possibility that abused girls end up working in the sex industry because their academic choices have been restricted: if they’re experiencing incest they might not do so well at school for example, and don’t have the choice of the range of careers that their non-abused peers have.
And I do believe that women who say they enjoy the work are telling the truth. Perhaps many women with histories of abuse find it healing to be sexually involved in a very controlled environment such as porn, or to have the freedom to choose which sex acts to participate in and at what price. I imagine the self-determination involved is very important to someone with a childhood history of abuse.
However, I have serious concerns about women’s safety. Certainly the vast majority of women who work in prostitution have been subjected to violence at some point in the course of their work. The risk of violence at work is much higher for women working in prostitution than for women in, say, medicine or academia. And culturally it seems that violence against women in the sex industry is viewed as acceptable. For example, I think if a prostitute or porn actress complained to the police that she’d been raped, she wouldn’t stand much chance of getting the guy convicted. I think there’s a huge lack of respect for women who work in sex, and that lack of respect is bad for all women. I’d like to see women in the sex industry treated with much more respect.
> To say a woman is being objectified and denying her claim that she truly enjoys her sexuality is in itself objectifying and infantilizing.
I agree wholeheartedly with the second half of your sentence. Yes, denying a woman’s claim to enjoy her sexuality is infantilizing. The first part of your sentence is something I’d probably agree to with qualifications. If I tell a woman that she is being objectified, then it’s unhelpful at best. On the other hand, when I look at porn I do think women are depicted more often as objects of other people’s desire rather than as subjects of their own desire. But of course it’s not just in porn; I think that it’s simply particularly striking in porn images. I suspect that many women see themselves as objects of desire more readily than as desiring subjects. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with being an object of desire. However, woman-as-object seems to be over-represented in porn, in my view.
> Polarizing intelligence and substance and the enjoyment earthy sexuality and the celebration of taste and touch and all things sensual, under the guise of concern, and holding it hostage to intellectualized concepts and theories is sadly repressive, and prejudiced.
I’m not sure I’ve understood you correctly, but if you’re saying that expressions of concern for real women in the sex industry are being used disingenuously in attempts to support theoretical concerns about sexual politics, then I’d probably disagree a little. I think feminist theorists who debate issues about porn and prostitution are often women with some kind of inside experience of the issues involved, so it’s not particularly disingenuous. I also think they’re trying to find ways make things better for *all* women and not just those who work in sex. They often disagree on how to change things for the better, but that’s the nature of theoretical debate. Certainly I think there’s something of a feminist consensus that the sex industry is not a particularly safe place for women to work, based on sex workers’ own reports. So if feminists want things to be different, perhaps it’s not because they’re repressive or prejudiced but because their idea of liberation involves widespread cultural change.
> Women have been abused in various ways long before the advent of porn on glossy paper.
> Abuse is something that will find it's way into any corner of the world, for any reason, and to connect it to one thing, or one area is naive and unrealistic.If I thought porn and abuse were intrinsically connected, I’d be out campaigning for total censorship. Still, I do think that porn is very influential and I’d like to see it reflect healthier attitudes to sexuality than it currently does.
> The mindset of the abuser exists unto itself and will find it's way of acting on the desire to inflict pain. It existed when women were forced to wear dresses down to their ankles, and when they had to wear chastity belts.
For sure. And it exists when women are paid only 80% of their male colleague’s salary to do the same job. And it exists when women are forced to go back to work two weeks after having a baby because they can’t survive financially otherwise. And it exists when older women can’t get a job because the employers want to hire someone young and ‘attractive’. I think it’s about a culture of inequality rather than about individual abusers. In a culture of inequality abusers know they can get away with it.
> Hugh Heffner was one of the first people to hire women, and hire black people to work in his corporation, (not pose in his magazine)
> Stockholders threatened him, when he hired minorities. He didn't change his hiring practices.
> His attitude was truly about sexual liberation, it wasn't an acceptable way to disguise his desire to abuse and objectify.I’m not a huge fan of Hefner. His advocacy of civil rights for minorities may be a redeeming quality, and I might even agree with him on other issues. But I find it difficult to see him as a proponent of sexual equality. And I don’t believe that sexual liberation is worth much without sexual equality. I guess I’d share his goal of sexual liberation, but I’d say there are better ways to set about achieving it.
> And yet many institutions that preach love and acceptance and morality are responsible for abuses of power.
Well, yeah. I won’t disagree with that!
> I'm not glorifying the porn industry, or demonizing the latter. What I'm saying is, that a label or philosophy is, not and never has been indicative of the behaviour of all those who are part of it. Abusers and those who respect the integrity of others are found in all aspects of life.
That seems fair enough. I don’t think we’re coming from fundamentally different places. If you interpreted some of the comments in my earlier post as any kind of attempt to silence the voices of women in porn, then I apologise for being unclear and inarticulate. I strongly believe that the voices of women in porn should be heard. And at the same time I think it’s important to explore the influence of porn throughout society and try to determine if there are ways we can improve the things that are holding back women (and men) from being as fulfilled as they could hope to be.
Tamar
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