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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by vainamoinen on February 3, 2006, at 20:46:31
In reply to Re: is there a time to give up?, posted by reese7194 on February 1, 2006, at 21:08:56
Spirituality does not equal religion. I take comfort in many religious myths. To me the fact that they are myth makes them even more powerful. It means they contain some fundamental truth that stands the test of time throughout the ages in spite of being complete fiction.
I'm not a Christian, more of a Buddhist if I had to label myself. Nevertheless I take great interest in all spiritual traditions becuase I personally feel that they all point in the same direction.
And I hate to even mention Jesus since that instantly turns some people off. Nevertheless...
The story of the crucification of Jesus, whether it be true or not, is a great analogy for life. Because even the supposed Son of God cried out on the cross "Why hast thou forsaken me".
And so must we all be in complete despair, be totally forsaken, so that we may die to our old selves and become resurrected into higher consciousness.
Your cross is depression. And traditional western medicine has forsaken you. Just to be clear the death I speak of is a figurative death, the death of ego, or the surrender of ego.
The Buddhists would say that suffering, disease, and death are unavoidable in life. Paradoxically though once you come to complete acceptance of this fact, you transcend suffering.
Cold comfort I'm sure to someone in your position. But I have been where you are, and it does get better, and it gets different.
Posted by fenix on February 3, 2006, at 20:46:31
In reply to Re: is there a time to give up?, posted by vainamoinen on February 3, 2006, at 15:48:52
Yes, what a deep post that was.
I am familiar of the ways of the Buddhists, and of their beliefs and practices.
To live is to suffer. It is not about overcoming suffering; it is becoming aware that it is part of reality.
Posted by reese7194 on February 3, 2006, at 20:46:31
In reply to Re: is there a time to give up?, posted by fenix on February 3, 2006, at 17:58:15
sorry. don't mean to be a jerk or whatever. but christ and all that just doesn't really move me. i think it's a really cool story. but that is as far as i can go with it.
in terms as life being that ....to suffer. yeah sure i agree. if you are suffering. i am lucky enough to not to live in palestine or iraq. that is what i see true suffering as.
what i am is something all together. so i just find it all a bit confusing.
Posted by vainamoinen on February 3, 2006, at 20:46:31
In reply to Re: is there a time to give up?, posted by fenix on February 3, 2006, at 17:58:15
It's funny to me that people can be so cynical about spiritual practice. I mean when it comes to turning your will and life over to a higher power that's what everyone on this board does when they rely on their p-doc for solutions. How is it different than the native american shaman/medicine man tradition? Because it's research based? Please, it's trial and error as you well know.In a nutshell I'm just saying in my opinion too many people on this board fail to take some responsibility for their problems. Don't look to medication to provide solutions. With that said I take medication and find it helpful. But there comes a time for facing the human condition. And I'm not even saying that Christianity or Buddhism is the way. You can be an atheist existential humanist, just take some responsibility for that which you can change.
Posted by reese7194 on February 3, 2006, at 20:46:32
In reply to Re: is there a time to give up?, posted by vainamoinen on February 3, 2006, at 18:43:34
i never said i am looking for medication for an answer. but looking for anything is looking for something. it doesn't matter if you find your answer in the arms of another or in the arms of a book or in anything.
in the end if you can't live in your own skin you are somewhat screwed. no how you go about living in your own skin is a whole other business.
and i do believe that everyone is different. just like in boxing some people have better chins than others. same goes with emotions and how some react and cause and effect and all that.
but it is hard for me not to say that at a point in time, something turns to a degree where there isn't a reply, an answer, a change, a hope that can help one find there way back to what or where they used to be.
i don't feel that is a pessimistic or negative view. i just think that it is. i don't blame others. i don't blame anyone. except the one who is viewing. which is me.
Posted by vainamoinen on February 3, 2006, at 20:46:32
In reply to Re: is there a time to give up?, posted by reese7194 on February 3, 2006, at 18:49:48
OK all bullsh_t aside, I have felt the way you are feeling and there is hope.
I know this may piss you off , and I don't even know you but I'm going to pray for you. So please remember that whether you have faith in any kind of higher power or not, someone who does is thinking of you and wishes healing, health, and happiness for you ...soon.
What the f_ck, it can't hurt. right?
Posted by 4WD on February 3, 2006, at 21:28:34
In reply to Re: is there a time to give up?, posted by reese7194 on February 3, 2006, at 18:49:48
> i never said i am looking for medication for an answer. but looking for anything is looking for something. it doesn't matter if you find your answer in the arms of another or in the arms of a book or in anything.
>
> in the end if you can't live in your own skin you are somewhat screwed. no how you go about living in your own skin is a whole other business.
>
> and i do believe that everyone is different. just like in boxing some people have better chins than others. same goes with emotions and how some react and cause and effect and all that.
>
> but it is hard for me not to say that at a point in time, something turns to a degree where there isn't a reply, an answer, a change, a hope that can help one find there way back to what or where they used to be.
>
> i don't feel that is a pessimistic or negative view. i just think that it is. i don't blame others. i don't blame anyone. except the one who is viewing. which is me.
Reese,I understand what you are saying. But I truly believe that clinical depression is controlling your beliefs at the moment. Obviously it controls our feelings, our emotions. We can't help feeling desperate and hopeless when we are so deeply depressed. And I know that it can be impossible to separate your beliefs from your feelings when you are so deeply depressed.
But they *are* different. If you found an antidepressant that worked for you, I believe that you would no longer believe that things were hopeless. I know this is a paradoxical statement. Obviously, if you felt better, you'd feel better, right? I know that when I am that deeply depressed, I cannot believe or feel that things will ever be better or different. But I am being taught in therapy and elsewhere that my beliefs don't have to echo my feelings. I can *feel* hopeless and desperate and still not *believe* that things are hopeless. That's what my therapist says anyway. I am just beginning to get to where I can view it that way. And still when I am at a low point, I can't make myself believe that I will ever feel better.
I guess I'm asking you to try and separate your feelings from your beliefs. Do you truly believe things will never get better? Do you truly believe things are hopeless? Not do you *feel* that way but do you *believe* it?
Another way to put this is instead of thinking about why you should go ahead and give up, ask yourself why you haven't given up already. You must believe there is some chance of things getting better or you would already have given up.
Are there any days where you feel relatively okay? Less depressed? Even parts of days? Put them on a calendar. Keep track. Then, when you are in the pit, you can look at it and remember that there were days when things weren't as bad. It helps me to see in black and white that I was suicidal two weeks ago and okay a week after that and suicidal again a couple of days later but I am okay today. It gives me hope that there will be good days to come.
Marsha
Posted by 4WD on February 3, 2006, at 21:35:22
In reply to Re: is there a time to give up?, posted by vainamoinen on February 3, 2006, at 19:04:37
> OK all bullsh_t aside, I have felt the way you are feeling and there is hope.
>
> I know this may piss you off , and I don't even know you but I'm going to pray for you. So please remember that whether you have faith in any kind of higher power or not, someone who does is thinking of you and wishes healing, health, and happiness for you ...soon.
>
> What the f_ck, it can't hurt. right?Hi Vainamoinen,
Your earlier post about spirituality really touched me. I hope you don't mind - I printed it out and am keeping it with some of my spirituality books.
The part about our having to be in complete despair, totally forsaken, is so true. It has happened to me and it did bring me to a place where I was forced to reach out toward a higher power - or perhaps allow a higher power to reach me.
I am in a 12 step group, as well as therapy and a spiritual formation group. All three of these are pointing me in the same direction. Acceptance of a higher power, letting go of my will and surrendering in turn to a greater intelligence that is the spirit of the universe. For me, it's God but it's not the God in the Old Testament (well, it's all the same God it's just my own concept is different).
Anyway, I'm going to pray for Reese, too. Like it or not.
Marsha
Posted by Phillipa on February 4, 2006, at 21:15:44
In reply to Re: is there a time to give up? » vainamoinen, posted by 4WD on February 3, 2006, at 21:35:22
Should this be redirected to Faith? Fondly, Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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