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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dr. Bob on December 27, 2004, at 3:08:51
In reply to Urban Legend. » Dinah, posted by rchrdtrck on December 26, 2004, at 11:53:22
> It's an Urban Legend...
When you're blocked, you're not supposed to post, so I've extended the duration of your block.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforce
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by NikkiT2 on December 27, 2004, at 6:22:17
In reply to I think I'm in love » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on December 26, 2004, at 9:09:06
Check our Prof. Stephen Hawking Dinah.. now that guy can blow your mind.
I once had the utter pleasure of having lunch with him (and 8 others!!), and the man has serious charisma.. now, you look at his circumstances and wonder how on earth he could. But he has a wicked sense of humour, and just a twitch of his lips let you know *exactly* how he feels about things.
A truly truly amazing guy!
Nikki x
Posted by Toph on December 27, 2004, at 6:44:26
In reply to Re: Does evil exist? » Larry Hoover, posted by Toph on December 26, 2004, at 16:01:47
OK, that was harsh. But Einstein sought the truth not myths his whole life, when he wasn't cheating on his wife, that is. You can look at it this way, there's a great dichotomy - matter and no matter plus phenomena, like change, the fertile delta. There is a force to change matter opposed by a force to maintain matter. Where matter is, how it is changing, and how fast it is changing, is, of course, all relative depending on your point of view. I have no way of knowing this but I think that Einstein, like me, like all of us including the most arrogant among us (on Earth not on PB), alternate between believing there is a God and believing there is no God. These beliefs can change in time, thank God, at least from my point of view.
Here's some postcards from a manic mind:
There are three basic drives in man: 1) to procreate, 2) to self propetuate, and 3) to self-pleasurate (I wanted 3 p's). Then there are three basic sins: 1) lying, 2) stealing and 3) hating. Mix them together and a whole lot of bad can happen. Make some rules about the second three (and their variations) and a whole lot of good can happen. I don't care who gets credit for the rules, I'm just glad they're there. The rules need to be relatively flexible depending on your point of view and man-made concepts of mercy, fairness and justice.
Here's what I have trouble with. Is knowlegde an inherently good thing or a bad thing? This apple that spoils the garden, that knocks some sense into Newton, that once split can kill efficiently and indiscriminately, is seductively powerful and dangerous. Is knowledge itself inherently evil or just how we apply it? When we figure out soon how to stop aging, how to clone ourselves to harvest organs to perpetuate our lives, who will govern this science? When we have computers and other technology (if we don't already) capable of monitoring and analyzing everyone's behavior will we use it? If Einstein made the deadly choice between bomb or no bomb presumably driven by the need to self-perpetuate his culture, who will be smart enough to lead the world to a place where truth prevails over lies, sharing is valued more than having, and love conquers hate?
-Toph
Posted by Atticus on December 27, 2004, at 20:27:07
In reply to Does evil exist?, posted by Larry Hoover on December 25, 2004, at 10:52:16
Albert Einstein was lucky enough not to live to see Barney the purple dinosaur -- pure unmitigated evil if ever I encountered it. Brrrr... Atticus
Posted by Jai Narayan on December 28, 2004, at 8:48:18
In reply to Re: Does evil exist? » Larry Hoover, posted by Atticus on December 27, 2004, at 20:27:07
> Albert Einstein was lucky enough not to live to see Barney the purple dinosaur -- pure unmitigated evil if ever I encountered it. Brrrr... Atticus
***okay shouldn't this be redirected to faith?
Or political?
or maybe relationship...
it could be eating...
(this whole conversation has made me hungry)...
Jai who just masticated a Barney burger
Posted by Toph on December 28, 2004, at 11:33:56
In reply to Re: Does evil exist?, posted by Toph on December 27, 2004, at 6:44:26
When I get manicy, I really start talking out my butt. I don't recognize much of what I said, but I must have thought it was important at the time.
Posted by Angel Girl on December 28, 2004, at 18:49:23
In reply to Does evil exist?, posted by Larry Hoover on December 25, 2004, at 10:52:16
Larry
I do believe that evil exists and that God created everything BUT God did not create evil. God gave man 'free will' and with that free will MAN CREATED EVIL.
God created a peaceful, loving and perfect world. It was MAN who screwed it up using his/her free will that God gave him.
AG
Posted by henrietta on December 28, 2004, at 19:15:20
In reply to Re: Does evil exist? » Larry Hoover, posted by Angel Girl on December 28, 2004, at 18:49:23
But then there's that Abraham slash Isaac story. (Do I have the names right?)
I would call it evil to demand that a father murder his child to please some voice,to demonstrate loyalty to some force or power beyond the daily loves and loyalties and natural human affinities and responsibilities... yes, I know the character called g*d did not in the end demand this sacrifice, but by then the deep damage had been done. The betrayal had been accomplished. This, to me, is evil, and I've never been able to understand how anyone could respect a g*d who behaved in this narcissistic, abusive manner. Maybe someone could explain it to me? I'd be grateful for an explanation.
Posted by Angel Girl on December 28, 2004, at 19:49:39
In reply to Re: Does evil exist? » Angel Girl, posted by henrietta on December 28, 2004, at 19:15:20
I hesitated to put in my 2 cents worth before because of my extreme lack of bible knowledge and I should've resisted I guess because I'm not familiar of the Bible story of which you speak. Maybe someone else knows?
AG
Posted by just plain jane on December 29, 2004, at 17:05:52
In reply to Does evil exist?, posted by Larry Hoover on December 25, 2004, at 10:52:16
there is an equal and opposite reaction.
If good exists, so does evil.
While working as a volunteer in the school library some years back, I had some HS kids come sit at the table where I was working. These three lads were the "bad" kids in their pretty bad class.
One of them, the rather intelligent one, said to me, "I don't believe in God. I believe in the devil."
Now, I knew these kids, and I knew they knew I was a Sunday School teacher at the time. They were just trying to "shock" me. (Hilarious, given my lurid past.)
I replied, "Without God, there is no reason for the devil."
Still my take on the subject.
just plain won't argue jane
Posted by Angel Girl on December 29, 2004, at 17:51:20
In reply to for every action, posted by just plain jane on December 29, 2004, at 17:05:52
> there is an equal and opposite reaction.
>
> If good exists, so does evil.
>
> While working as a volunteer in the school library some years back, I had some HS kids come sit at the table where I was working. These three lads were the "bad" kids in their pretty bad class.
>
> One of them, the rather intelligent one, said to me, "I don't believe in God. I believe in the devil."
>
> Now, I knew these kids, and I knew they knew I was a Sunday School teacher at the time. They were just trying to "shock" me. (Hilarious, given my lurid past.)
>
> I replied, "Without God, there is no reason for the devil."
>
> Still my take on the subject.
>
> just plain won't argue jane
>
jpjI wish I could get you in the same room as my 27yr old son. He claims to be an anthiest. Doesn't believe in God but does believe in the devil. Also doesn't believe in angels, although Satan is a fallen angel, of which he also doesn't believe. He also doesn't believe in Heaven, not sure what his belief is in Hell. He believes we developed from apes but when I ask him where the apes come from, he doesn't know. I would love for someone who is a knowledgable Christian to debate beliefs with him. As a Christian myself, but not a very good one, it saddens me deeply that he doesn't believe in God. However; at least I can be happy in the fact that he is not a Satan worshipper either.
So, you didn't say how those kids responded to your answer???
AG
Posted by Dave001 on December 29, 2004, at 20:56:59
In reply to Re: Does evil exist? » verne, posted by Larry Hoover on December 25, 2004, at 21:17:52
> Here are a selection of Einstein quotations:
>
> I cannot believe that God plays dice with the cosmos.I once read a witty retort to that quote: "God does play dice with the universe. But they're loaded dice..." It was quoted in James Gleick's "Chaos," but originated from Joseph Ford.
Dave
Posted by Dave001 on December 31, 2004, at 18:18:03
In reply to Re: for every action » just plain jane, posted by Angel Girl on December 29, 2004, at 17:51:20
> I wish I could get you in the same room as my 27yr old son. He claims to be an anthiest. Doesn't believe in God but does believe in the devil. Also
Although your reply was directed toward someone else, I thought I'd chime in here and point out that it is at least inconsistent to believe in a "the devil," without believing in "God."
> doesn't believe in angels, although Satan is a fallen angel, of which he also doesn't believe. He also doesn't believe in Heaven, not sure what his belief is in Hell. He believes we developed from apes but when I ask him where the apes come from, he doesn't know. I would love for someone who is a
Well, to stimulate his critical thinking process, ask him about his thoughts on the origin of the devil. Granted, I don't know your son, but since he said he believes man evolved from apes, you might consider that he was being facetious when he expressed a belief in a devil.
> knowledgable Christian to debate beliefs with him. As a Christian myself, but not a very good one, it saddens me deeply that he doesn't believe in God. However; at least I can be happy in the fact that he is not a Satan worshipper either.
>Oh God (no pun intended), Nietzsche would have a field day here. I love a good debate on religion, but this isn't the place for it. As an atheist, I'd no doubt say something resulting in me being banned, albeit unintentionally. We heretics always have a way of getting burned (pun intended). ;-)
Posted by Angel Girl on December 31, 2004, at 22:20:28
In reply to Re: for every action, posted by Dave001 on December 31, 2004, at 18:18:03
> > I wish I could get you in the same room as my 27yr old son. He claims to be an anthiest. Doesn't believe in God but does believe in the devil. Also
>
> Although your reply was directed toward someone else, I thought I'd chime in here and point out that it is at least inconsistent to believe in a "the devil," without believing in "God."
>
> > doesn't believe in angels, although Satan is a fallen angel, of which he also doesn't believe. He also doesn't believe in Heaven, not sure what his belief is in Hell. He believes we developed from apes but when I ask him where the apes come from, he doesn't know. I would love for someone who is a
>
> Well, to stimulate his critical thinking process, ask him about his thoughts on the origin of the devil. Granted, I don't know your son, but since he said he believes man evolved from apes, you might consider that he was being facetious when he expressed a belief in a devil.
>
> > knowledgable Christian to debate beliefs with him. As a Christian myself, but not a very good one, it saddens me deeply that he doesn't believe in God. However; at least I can be happy in the fact that he is not a Satan worshipper either.
> >
>
> Oh God (no pun intended), Nietzsche would have a field day here. I love a good debate on religion, but this isn't the place for it. As an atheist, I'd no doubt say something resulting in me being banned, albeit unintentionally. We heretics always have a way of getting burned (pun intended). ;-)
DaveYour comments are VERY welcome, especially since I understand you to say you are an athiest because I do not understand exactly what an athiest believes.
It may be inconsistent but he claims to believe in Satan but not God. Oh he was not being facetious, he definitely believes in Satan. We haven't had any discussions lately, so I can not remember what he believes Satan's origin is.
I hope I have not offended you or anyone here who claims to be an athiest or a Satan worshipper.
Unfortunately, my son is a real trigger for me right now and this is one discussion that I'd be smart to stay out of right now, although I am tempted to ask him the questions you proposed.
Thanks for your input and again, I hope that I did not offend.
AG
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 31, 2004, at 22:46:51
In reply to Re: Does evil exist?, posted by Toph on December 28, 2004, at 11:33:56
> When I get manicy, I really start talking out my butt. I don't recognize much of what I said, but I must have thought it was important at the time.
When I get geeky, I know that evil exists. One manifestation is Kazaa, the music download site. My kids' computer gets so full of malware that it actually bogs down to nothing. It won't even load the desktop, sometimes. I can't tell you how many times I've taken Gain.gator off of it, and how many corrupted files I find. Hundreds. I'm going to have to put Netnanny or something on that machine, before it dies from the malware burden.
Lar
Posted by just plain jane on January 1, 2005, at 0:11:25
In reply to Re: for every action » just plain jane, posted by Angel Girl on December 29, 2004, at 17:51:20
They had no reply for several minutes.
They looked at each other, at me, back to one another.
Then the smart one (the "leader", of course) nodded a few times, got a little smirk on his face, and agreed.
They also were giving me a hard time about driving a crappy car, obviously under the impression that I could afford much better. I explained that I was a volunteer.
"What's a volunteer?" I was asked, and explained how I worked there but got no pay.
"Why would you do that?" they wanted to know, skepticism plain on their faces.
It was such an intensely happy moment for me to tell them, "I do it because you are here to talk to me. Because no one could pay me enough to do what I do with you kids every day. Because being here for all you kids is the best pay I could ask for. Because I DO believe in God and this is where He wants me to be."
Being in such a small community I have had the pleasure of seeing them all grow up to be decent young men.
I do not engage in debate on religion, spirituality, beliefs... these things are personally held, which makes them, in my opinion, nondebatable.
jpj
Posted by Toph on January 1, 2005, at 15:26:00
In reply to Re: Does evil exist? Aye! Malware! » Toph, posted by Larry Hoover on December 31, 2004, at 22:46:51
Are you suggesting that my manic rant of the other day was the work of the devil? Frankly, I will confess that I have made some pretty bad choices in my life, taking acid, infidelity and other deceptions, but I take full responsibility for them. If anything bothers me, it's trying to understand why I deserve my illlness. In an attempt to find meaning, I tell myself that I'm a better person somehow because of it. I'm still waiting for the genetic or chemical Malbrain fix that will liberate me from the chains of BP disorder.
Thanks for being considerate of alternative viewpoints to your post.
-Toph
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 1, 2005, at 17:58:39
In reply to Re: Aye! Malware! » Larry Hoover, posted by Toph on January 1, 2005, at 15:26:00
> Are you suggesting that my manic rant of the other day was the work of the devil?
If, and only if, you wrote some of the virus junk that was on my kids' computer.
Lar
Posted by Toph on January 2, 2005, at 7:41:28
In reply to Re: Aye! Malware! » Toph, posted by Larry Hoover on January 1, 2005, at 17:58:39
LOL. Anyone smart enough (definitely not me) to screw up other people's computers who can't think of a more constructive way to apply their intellectual gift must be evil, Lar.
-Toph
Posted by Toph on January 3, 2005, at 8:44:09
In reply to Re: Does evil exist? Aye! Malware! » Toph, posted by Larry Hoover on December 31, 2004, at 22:46:51
>
> When I get geeky, I know that evil exists. One manifestation is Kazaa, the music download site. My kids' computer gets so full of malware that it actually bogs down to nothing. It won't even load the desktop, sometimes. I can't tell you how many times I've taken Gain.gator off of it, and how many corrupted files I find. Hundreds. I'm going to have to put Netnanny or something on that machine, before it dies from the malware burden.
>
> Lar
>
>Larry, when I run my SpyBot software on the bottom I can read the files that it is scanning for bad stuff. I see gain.Gator files, but it skips right over them. If Gator is adware or malware or spyware or badware or something evil, why doesn't SpyBot or Adaware remove it? Should I do a search for all Gator files and remove them myself? Thanks,
-Toph
Posted by verne on January 3, 2005, at 9:32:39
In reply to Re: MALWARE! » Larry Hoover, posted by Toph on January 3, 2005, at 8:44:09
Toph,
I think spybot removed Gator for me. I also have spyware blaster so I never get it in the first place anymore.
Have you checked under spybot's "immunization" section to see whether you're immunized against all known badware?
Spybot has come out with a new version. For some reason I couldn't update the old version so I uninstalled the old did a clean install.
You may be already doing this but periodically you will want to update Spybot too. I haven't been following this thread very closely so I hope I haven't repeated what someone else said.
verne
Posted by Toph on January 3, 2005, at 10:34:04
In reply to Re: MALWARE! » Toph, posted by verne on January 3, 2005, at 9:32:39
Thanks verne. I didn't know that you have to manually update these programs, I thought it was automatic. I downloaded SpywareBlaster from information I found on SpyBot. When I ran a search on SpyBot I still see all sorts of nasty files like gator. Maybe they are disabled. If I search my harddrive for gator nothing comes up. I don't understand these things but I hope I'm protected because my computer seems to be running pretty fast.
-Toph
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 3, 2005, at 11:59:32
In reply to Re: MALWARE! » Larry Hoover, posted by Toph on January 3, 2005, at 8:44:09
> >
> > When I get geeky, I know that evil exists. One manifestation is Kazaa, the music download site. My kids' computer gets so full of malware that it actually bogs down to nothing. It won't even load the desktop, sometimes. I can't tell you how many times I've taken Gain.gator off of it, and how many corrupted files I find. Hundreds. I'm going to have to put Netnanny or something on that machine, before it dies from the malware burden.
> >
> > Lar
> >
> >
>
> Larry, when I run my SpyBot software on the bottom I can read the files that it is scanning for bad stuff. I see gain.Gator files, but it skips right over them. If Gator is adware or malware or spyware or badware or something evil, why doesn't SpyBot or Adaware remove it? Should I do a search for all Gator files and remove them myself? Thanks,
> -TophYou can manually remove them, but it is not recommended. Screw up your registry, and your computer won't run.
http://www.iamnotageek.com/printer-180.html
Gain.gator is an ad program that facilitates pop-ups. I've heard that there is a version of this software that is modified to store your passwords in remote-accessible cookie files, but the real issue is that gator is an executable, and you don't want foreign executables running on your box.
I have no idea why Spybot is not detecting/removing gain.gator. As verne has mentioned, there is a new (updates to December 2004) version of Spybot out. The old version is no longer updated (as of March?), and it will miss gain.gator, I think. I highly recommend upgrading, as this version takes a system restore point before it makes any changes. You don't need to uninstall the old version to install the new.
Also, get lavasoft's Ad-aware. It's free, and it will most certainly remove gain.gator and all the associated files and folders.
Ad-aware:
http://www.lavasoftusa.com/software/adaware/Spybot build 1.3:
http://www.safer-networking.org/en/mirrors/index.htmlLar
Posted by Toph on January 3, 2005, at 16:19:48
In reply to Re: MALWARE! » Toph, posted by Larry Hoover on January 3, 2005, at 11:59:32
Posted by Dave001 on January 7, 2005, at 16:01:16
In reply to Re: for every action » Dave001, posted by Angel Girl on December 31, 2004, at 22:20:28
> > > I wish I could get you in the same room as my 27yr old son. He claims to be an anthiest. Doesn't believe in God but does believe in the devil. Also
> >
> > Although your reply was directed toward someone else, I thought I'd chime in here and point out that it is at least inconsistent to believe in a "the devil," without believing in "God."
> >
> > > doesn't believe in angels, although Satan is a fallen angel, of which he also doesn't believe. He also doesn't believe in Heaven, not sure what his belief is in Hell. He believes we developed from apes but when I ask him where the apes come from, he doesn't know. I would love for someone who is a
> >
> > Well, to stimulate his critical thinking process, ask him about his thoughts on the origin of the devil. Granted, I don't know your son, but since he said he believes man evolved from apes, you might consider that he was being facetious when he expressed a belief in a devil.
> >
> > > knowledgable Christian to debate beliefs with him. As a Christian myself, but not a very good one, it saddens me deeply that he doesn't believe in God. However; at least I can be happy in the fact that he is not a Satan worshipper either.
> > >
> >
> > Oh God (no pun intended), Nietzsche would have a field day here. I love a good debate on religion, but this isn't the place for it. As an atheist, I'd no doubt say something resulting in me being banned, albeit unintentionally. We heretics always have a way of getting burned (pun intended). ;-)
>
>
> Dave
>
> Your comments are VERY welcome, especially since I understand you to say you are an athiest because I do not understand exactly what an athiest believes.
>An atheist is simply one who does not believe in the existence of a physical deity. All scientists are atheists, whether they admit it or not. Also, many people who claim to believe in God are essentially atheists; that is, they use the term metaphorically, but do not believe in the existence of a *physical* God. Me, I just include God in the same category as Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, and the Easter bunny, etc.
The following quote on religion is from my favorite stand-up comedian, George Carlin:
"Religion easily—has the best bullsh*t story of all time. Think about it. Religion has convinced people that there's an invisible man...living in the sky. Who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn't want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer, and burn, and scream, until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you. He loves you and he needs money."
Tell me that isn't funny! :-)
> It may be inconsistent but he claims to believe in Satan but not God. Oh he was not being facetious, he definitely believes in Satan. We haven't had any discussions lately, so I can not remember what he believes Satan's origin is.
>
> I hope I have not offended you or anyone here who claims to be an athiest or a Satan worshipper.
>The way in which you worded that sentence makes me think you may be confused about the definition of an atheist. An atheist is _NOT_ a Satan worshipper. On the contrary, being an atheist precludes the belief in Satan or any other supernatural entities.
> Unfortunately, my son is a real trigger for me right now and this is one discussion that I'd be smart to stay out of right now, although I am tempted to ask him the questions you proposed.
>
> Thanks for your input and again, I hope that I did not offend.Please don't be concerned about offending me. I am not easily offended, and I certainly found no part of your message ill-spirited. Quite the opposite.
Dave
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