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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fallsfall on June 26, 2003, at 16:32:42
I have chosen my new therapist. I interviewed 4, and knew a 5th from before. Two of them ended up tied at then end, but my friend who is a therapist and my old therapist broke the tie for me. I'm really comfortable with the new one. I think he is very competent, and caring. He is also efficient and motivated. And he has a really cool English accent (which is really nice here in the USA).
Past. I started looking for a new therapist because my old one was doing things that were inconceivable to me (One week she said something that I repeated to myself throughout the week, and it made me feel better. The next week she refused to say anything. It seemed almost cruel.)
This week my old therapist and I were wrapping up talking about my therapist search when it became apparent that she thought I was leaving for a different reason than I thought I was leaving. She thought that she had taught me what she knew and that I was leaving to try a different kind of therapy. I thought I was leaving because I had been in pain for 4 months thinking that she was angry at me and I couldn't take it any more. Turns out that she didn't know that I was in pain at all for those 4 months. How could she not know? I can't vouch for exactly how specifically I told her, but I am very open and wouldn't have hidden it from her. Even if I didn't tell her exactly how I was feeling, isn't it her job to find these things out? Now the previous incident makes more sense: she didn't understand why what she said to me the week before was important. How long has she been not understanding (probably 4 months to 1 1/2 years)? She said that we should talk about the anger (my thinking that she was angry at me) - probably 3 sessions. I agreed but said that she would have to see me more often. I couldn't live in the pain I'm in for another 3 weeks. She said that she thought that seeing me more often would be bad for my dependency issues, so she would only see me once a week. I then asked which of the final two therapists she liked, and she cast her vote. As I was leaving, I pointed out that I was only looking for one extra session - so we could get through the anger stuff in 1 1/2 weeks. She said no, and I left. Again, she's not understanding the pain that I am in. She has to stick to her rigid rules.
She believes strongly that the way to reduce dependency is to reduce sessions. She was planning to reduce to every other week with me in September. I agree that this will reduce the dependency - you have to find other places to get your needs met. But I find this plan barbaric. I could (and am) reducing the dependency really fast by not seeing her any more at all. I have to believe that there are ways to understand WHY the dependency exists - and then work on that. In fact we did that 3 months ago (when she was going to reduce my sessions). We (I) decided that I was giving her power over my self esteem. So I was then making progress on figuring out how to determine my self esteem by myself. The process was working, I was learning and changes were starting to be made. Is this an unreasonable way to work on dependency? Reducing sessions just leaves the patient with 100% of the responsibility for resolving the problem.
I don't want to see her again. We have certainly not finished our "termination", but she let me down so badly by not understanding the most important stuff for the last 4 months. I know that I saw her as too perfect, but this is professional performance that I find unacceptable.
I see my new therapist tomorrow (thank goodness!), and I'm hoping that he doesn't tell me I need to go back to see her. I'm ready to move on.
Posted by shar on June 26, 2003, at 16:46:31
In reply to Therapists - Past and Future, posted by fallsfall on June 26, 2003, at 16:32:42
This may be too dumb a question to answer, but how are "dependency issues" being defined?
I trust you won't answer if you don't want to, it could just be my brain density growing (and not in a good way).
Shar
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2003, at 17:07:18
In reply to Therapists - Past and Future, posted by fallsfall on June 26, 2003, at 16:32:42
That reminds me of the Chinese proverb that there are two marriages in every marriage bed, or something like that. That each person has a completely different idea of what is going on in a relationship.
Irvin Yalom's whole book "Every Day Gets a Little Closer: A Twice-Told Therapy" is based on that idea.
I've had those moments with my therapist. Where he says something that makes me realize he's been in a completely different relationship than I have. And whenever it happens, we sit down and hash it out until we're quite clear we're on the same page.
But I don't think I'd bother going to that much trouble with a therapist who is so rigid. If I sometimes suspect that my therapist doesn't mind extra sessions because he likes the extra income, I still appreciate that he's willing to do it. And that he's able to tolerate my dependency and not allow his own feelings about it affect our therapeutic relationship.
I think you've made the right decision. And if you ever want to go back and clear up a few things, there's no reason to do it right away is there?
Congratulations on a successful end to your careful search. Or is that Congratulations on your new beginning. :)
Good luck, Fallsfall.
Posted by fallsfall on June 26, 2003, at 19:09:53
In reply to Re: Therapists - Past and Future » fallsfall, posted by shar on June 26, 2003, at 16:46:31
Hi Shar
There are different kinds of dependency.
For me, it means that therapy is more important than anything else in my life (except my kids, maybe). It means that I won't make a major decision without checking with my therapist. It means that I'll drive by her office (if it's not really out of the way) to see if she is there. It means that I think about her all the time. It means that I ask her questions in my head between sessions. It means that she is essential to my survival. It means searching on the internet for her to have some "connection". It means seeing that her opinion about something (i.e. my self worth) is more valid and important than mine.
For other people (but not me), it may include calling a lot between sessions. Or refusing to leave. Or waiting in the waiting room when they don't have a session scheduled hoping to talk to her for a minute.
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2003, at 19:22:21
In reply to Re: Therapists - Past and Future » shar, posted by fallsfall on June 26, 2003, at 19:09:53
For me it means that I feel safer when I know he's in town, and like I've lost my anchor when he's out of town. It's knowing I couldn't live without those sessions. It's being terrified that he's angry with me and obsessed with abandonment fears.
All this despite the fact that I realize that the therapist in my mind is only vaguely related to the real one.
Posted by Penny on June 26, 2003, at 20:15:49
In reply to Therapists - Past and Future, posted by fallsfall on June 26, 2003, at 16:32:42
How long had you been seeing the old therapist?
I can certainly see how dependency in some cases might be detrimental, but isn't it necessary for a strong therapeutic relationship? I certainly am dependent on my therapist, and my pdoc, and I was dependent on my last therapist as well, so much so that when she left for maternity leave, I thought I was going to die. Obviously I didn't, but it was one of the most painful things I've ever had to live through.
Neither of my therapists discouraged dependency. I suppose if I went to extremes (though I nearly was obsessed with the last one), it might be different, but I can't imagine not being dependent on them. In fact, the whole point, IMO is for them to get into your head. Not to drown you out, mind you, but to be (at least in my case) your voice of reason and stability in an otherwise unstable, unreasonable (sometimes) mind. I dunno...
Just my thoughts. I would recommend that you discuss with your new therapist the whole closure with the old thing and wouldn't be surprised if he recommends you see her at least one more time, though it's not as though anyone can force you or anything. It might be good, though, to go through what you want to say to her with him beforehand. Might make it more beneficial. Try to take away from the old therapist all the lessons you can, happy and painful. The pain can teach us a lot, don't you think? Even though it sucks!!!
Best of luck with your new therapist! Keep us posted...
take care.
Penny> I have chosen my new therapist. I interviewed 4, and knew a 5th from before. Two of them ended up tied at then end, but my friend who is a therapist and my old therapist broke the tie for me. I'm really comfortable with the new one. I think he is very competent, and caring. He is also efficient and motivated. And he has a really cool English accent (which is really nice here in the USA).
>
> Past. I started looking for a new therapist because my old one was doing things that were inconceivable to me (One week she said something that I repeated to myself throughout the week, and it made me feel better. The next week she refused to say anything. It seemed almost cruel.)
>
> This week my old therapist and I were wrapping up talking about my therapist search when it became apparent that she thought I was leaving for a different reason than I thought I was leaving. She thought that she had taught me what she knew and that I was leaving to try a different kind of therapy. I thought I was leaving because I had been in pain for 4 months thinking that she was angry at me and I couldn't take it any more. Turns out that she didn't know that I was in pain at all for those 4 months. How could she not know? I can't vouch for exactly how specifically I told her, but I am very open and wouldn't have hidden it from her. Even if I didn't tell her exactly how I was feeling, isn't it her job to find these things out? Now the previous incident makes more sense: she didn't understand why what she said to me the week before was important. How long has she been not understanding (probably 4 months to 1 1/2 years)? She said that we should talk about the anger (my thinking that she was angry at me) - probably 3 sessions. I agreed but said that she would have to see me more often. I couldn't live in the pain I'm in for another 3 weeks. She said that she thought that seeing me more often would be bad for my dependency issues, so she would only see me once a week. I then asked which of the final two therapists she liked, and she cast her vote. As I was leaving, I pointed out that I was only looking for one extra session - so we could get through the anger stuff in 1 1/2 weeks. She said no, and I left. Again, she's not understanding the pain that I am in. She has to stick to her rigid rules.
>
> She believes strongly that the way to reduce dependency is to reduce sessions. She was planning to reduce to every other week with me in September. I agree that this will reduce the dependency - you have to find other places to get your needs met. But I find this plan barbaric. I could (and am) reducing the dependency really fast by not seeing her any more at all. I have to believe that there are ways to understand WHY the dependency exists - and then work on that. In fact we did that 3 months ago (when she was going to reduce my sessions). We (I) decided that I was giving her power over my self esteem. So I was then making progress on figuring out how to determine my self esteem by myself. The process was working, I was learning and changes were starting to be made. Is this an unreasonable way to work on dependency? Reducing sessions just leaves the patient with 100% of the responsibility for resolving the problem.
>
> I don't want to see her again. We have certainly not finished our "termination", but she let me down so badly by not understanding the most important stuff for the last 4 months. I know that I saw her as too perfect, but this is professional performance that I find unacceptable.
>
> I see my new therapist tomorrow (thank goodness!), and I'm hoping that he doesn't tell me I need to go back to see her. I'm ready to move on.
Posted by shar on June 26, 2003, at 22:58:53
In reply to Re: Therapists - Past and Future, posted by Penny on June 26, 2003, at 20:15:49
Falls,
I wonder if it would be interesting or beneficial to talk to your upcoming therapist about dependency, and what he/she thinks about it, before you begin your journey with him/her.Not as a test or anything like that, but just to see how they think of dependency. Or maybe you've done that already. Seems to me it would be interesting just to have the information.
Thanks for the very clear description of what you meant.
Shar
Posted by fallsfall on June 26, 2003, at 23:34:15
In reply to Re: Therapists - Past and Future, posted by Penny on June 26, 2003, at 20:15:49
> How long had you been seeing the old therapist?
>
8 1/2 years. In the middle I was able to go back to work and had actually made an appointment 3 months out. But I crashed at the 2 month point.> I can certainly see how dependency in some cases might be detrimental, but isn't it necessary for a strong therapeutic relationship? I certainly am dependent on my therapist, and my pdoc, and I was dependent on my last therapist as well, so much so that when she left for maternity leave, I thought I was going to die. Obviously I didn't, but it was one of the most painful things I've ever had to live through.
>
> Neither of my therapists discouraged dependency. I suppose if I went to extremes (though I nearly was obsessed with the last one), it might be different, but I can't imagine not being dependent on them. In fact, the whole point, IMO is for them to get into your head. Not to drown you out, mind you, but to be (at least in my case) your voice of reason and stability in an otherwise unstable, unreasonable (sometimes) mind. I dunno...
>
Yes, I think that there needs to be a dependency. But my old therapist thought that I was too extreme. As some other here have said, though, she may not be tolerant enough of dependency. I think she is particularly sensitive about her personal privacy - so when I started getting too close there she felt she had to act.> Just my thoughts. I would recommend that you discuss with your new therapist the whole closure with the old thing and wouldn't be surprised if he recommends you see her at least one more time, though it's not as though anyone can force you or anything. It might be good, though, to go through what you want to say to her with him beforehand. Might make it more beneficial. Try to take away from the old therapist all the lessons you can, happy and painful. The pain can teach us a lot, don't you think? Even though it sucks!!!
>
During our interview session I told him what was going on with my old therapist. Then he told me about a patient that he had in the past who was dependent. I can't tell you now how he handled it (because my memory doesn't work), but it was clear to me that he had dealt with a very similar situation and everything was OK.> Best of luck with your new therapist! Keep us posted...
>
> take care.
> Penny
>
Thanks!
Posted by fallsfall on June 26, 2003, at 23:39:50
In reply to Re: Therapists - Past and Future....Falls, posted by shar on June 26, 2003, at 22:58:53
We did talk about how he handled an earlier case, I may ask for his philosophy though.
I probably should mention that I had a dependency with a friend just before I went into therapy. I would drive past where she was supposed to be to see her car. She was my skating teacher, and I would skate after work so I brought leftovers and microwaved them at work and ate them when I got to the rink. Then I started bringing one for her. She taught 2 nights, and I only skated one - but I started bringing her dinner on the other night. One night I couldn't make it so I had my husband bring her dinner. Obsessed is probably an accurate word.
So it isn't just therapists...
Posted by Penny on June 27, 2003, at 8:17:56
In reply to Re: Therapists - Past and Future » Penny, posted by fallsfall on June 26, 2003, at 23:34:15
Well, it's all a learning experience, right? Perhaps now is a wonderful time for a therapist change for you, since you and your former therapist seem to not be in sync as much as you were perhaps in the beginning.
I was only with my former therapist for a little over three years, so I can only partially relate to what you're going through. What I can tell you is that I did border on what I would consider 'obsessive' with her for a while, when she was expecting her baby, as I felt extreme jealousy, of both her as a mom and the baby, for having her as a mom. I found out where she lived and then told her, as I felt really guilty, and I think I freaked her out, though she said she got over it. I never have, however, still can't forgive myself for invading her privacy. What I didn't tell her and didn't tell my new therapist (!) is that I drove by her house one time, just to see what it looked like. I only got a glance as I wouldn't let myself slow down for fear of being noticed. And that bothered me even more. Not that I EVER would have gone to her house or mailed her something there or gone to that extreme in invading her privacy, but I felt as if I had already overstepped the boundaries and I still suffer from extreme guilt over the whole thing, even though she's no longer my therapist!
The good part? I don't have the same obsession with my new therapist. I think it's partly because she's been more forthcoming with information about herself. I know more about her. She doesn't hide things from me. I mean, I knew things about my former therapist, and the fact that she had a baby that was always present in the room with us while she was pregnant made it that much worse. I knew she was married, found out (again, probably against her wishes) where her husband worked (there was even a picture of him on his company website), knew about her kids though never had the nerve to ask her daughter's name (but she said her name one time without really thinking, and I found out her son's name when he was born). But I didn't really know much else about her. I knew where she lived before NC and where she went to school and the professional stuff, but that was about it.
This time, I know more about my therapist, though not REALLY personal stuff like about her family life and all (I know she's divorced, has an adult child though I haven't asked whether a son or daughter, I know she's an only child), but I know other things that she's shared with me through anecdotes about girl scouts and whatnot. And I know about her hobbies and outside interests somewhat, which makes me feel closer to her. So I guess I don't have the same need to know about where she lives and things like that.
IMO, it almost makes the dependency problem worse when they try to hide things from you. I mean, I understand their need for privacy and boundaries and all, but it just, for me, makes me that much more intrigued and curious and makes me more likely to research them on my own, which then leads to me finding out things they probably wish I didn't know.
My pdoc, on the other hand, has been extremely forthcoming with information about his personal life - about his family, his hobbies, some about his childhood, his frustrations, etc., and I like knowing those things. I guess in some cases it could be weird, but he really knows me, knows I'm not some psychopath who would hunt him down or anything, and clearly doesn't feel uncomfortable with me knowing personal information about him. I mean, he doesn't get TOO personal or anything, but I feel like I know him pretty well.
Guess it just all depends.
Anyway, I'm excited for you with your new therapist and this new venture. I think it will be a really positive thing.
Penny
Posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2003, at 8:54:22
In reply to Re: Therapists - Past and Future » fallsfall, posted by Penny on June 27, 2003, at 8:17:56
Thank you, Penny.
It helps to know that I'm not the only one who has researched their therapist. My old therapist sounds like it is the worst thing that anyone could do. I agree that it isn't great, but I don't think that it is a total sin - for me, it is part of my illness. I always told her everything (and once she asked me "why did you tell me that??") so she knew exactly what I had done. I think she is a little sensitive.
My new therapist has a picture and short professional biography on the web. And his wife has a picture of the family on the web. So it will be interesting to see how open he is. I think that the picture will help me a lot. When I was looking for my old therapist, I was looking for a picture.
So I'm trying to convince myself that I'm not evil, and that what I've done isn't so awful that I can't be forgiven.
I guess I still have to decide if I'll forgive her for seeing me for months on end without having any idea what was going on. That was the relationship I was supposed to be able to count on. The first 7 years were really very good, and nothing that happens now can change that.
Thanks for your support.
Posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2003, at 22:38:03
In reply to Re: Therapists - Past and Future » Penny, posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2003, at 8:54:22
I saw my new therapist today. It was good.
We talked about my old therapist (which is painful for me). He's going to make me go back to see her - to tell her that I'm angry and hurt. Right. Somehow I can't see this (yet I know that it will happen). He thinks that it will be theraputic. She's off with a family emergency next week so I have some time to prepare.
He touched on a bunch of my weaknesses (black and white thinking, not recognizing emotions etc.) He was quite gentle, but I think that he will lose some of that over time - and that probably will be good for me. It was nice not to be a total zombie when I left therapy (again, that may not last).
He crosses his legs and wears very long socks.
I got Milk Chocolate Almond ice cream on the way home (but not in a sugar cone because they had lost their electricity and the ice cream was getting a little soft - so I got Jimmies instead). I need the sugar (and chocolate) to bring my brain back into my head.
Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2003, at 20:21:51
In reply to Re: Therapists - I saw the Future, posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2003, at 22:38:03
Sounds very good. :) I can see where having a new point of view would be helpful. I like gentle. You think it won't last? I do better with gentle. It doesn't get my stubborn streak working, and I consider things I wouldn't with a more confrontive approach.
Your ice cream sounds like a healthier way of decompressing than my hours of forgetting-sleep. And tastier too.
I know you'll do great with seeing your old therapist. It'll be a lot different now that you have another source of support and someone who can help you organize what you want to say.
Posted by Penny on June 28, 2003, at 21:19:47
In reply to Re: Therapists - I saw the Future, posted by fallsfall on June 27, 2003, at 22:38:03
Yummmm....milk chocolate almond. I had honey toasted almond ice cream tonight, as a treat...
I am proud of you!!! I think facing the old therapist and having your say will be very good - though it will be very hard too! But you will get through it, I just know it, and in a good way.
P
Posted by kara lynne on June 29, 2003, at 0:17:54
In reply to Re: Therapists - Past and Future » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on June 26, 2003, at 19:22:21
Hello fallsfall,
Sounds like you've done the work and are on the right track. How did you look for therapists? Did you get referrals from friends? Call organizations?I've collected numbers throughout the last year, but haven't called one yet. I just got the number of a clinic that might be more affordable for me, but I'm afraid to call there.
I'm impressed that you just went forward and interviewed five (or however many) and narrowed it down. I seem to be in a bit of collapse around the whole issue. It's too important, if it's inexpensive it must not be good, if it's good it must be too expensive, yadda yadda I'll just watch television and eat this Snicker's bar instead.
Anyway, just wondering...
thanks
Posted by kara lynne on June 29, 2003, at 0:20:19
In reply to Re: Therapists - Past and Future » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on June 26, 2003, at 19:22:21
"All this despite the fact that I realize that the therapist in my mind is only vaguely related to the real one."That is great!!
Posted by fallsfall on June 29, 2003, at 10:27:54
In reply to Re: Therapists - I saw the Future » fallsfall, posted by Penny on June 28, 2003, at 21:19:47
Telling my old therapist that I don't like what she did/that she did a bad job is absolutely terrifying for me. I need to figure out why it is so scary.
I know things are going in a good direction. It is just brutal getting there.
Thanks for your support!!! I need it.
Posted by fallsfall on June 29, 2003, at 11:03:33
In reply to fallsfall, posted by kara lynne on June 29, 2003, at 0:17:54
Hi Kara Lynne,
I described my search process in http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20030529/msgs/231469.html.
The only way I got it done was that my pain level with my current therapist was so high that I HAD to do it. The alternative was going into the hospital, and it would be really hard to find a therapist the way I wanted to from there. Since I was with my old one 8 1/2 years, I figured that I would need someone for the long haul (forever therapy, as Dinah and I say) - and so they had best be good. It was also easier because I had confidence that EVERY therapist I would interview would be a good therapist - maybe not the perfect therapist for me - but a good therapist. This was because of how I got the names. I guess that gave me some trust that I could sit with them for 50 minutes and not be hurt - and maybe be helped (all but 1 were quite helpful. The 1 was not hurtful, but not helpful either).
The first call was terrifying. I was calling a former group therapist of mine who I had seen 4 months before. I was still terrified to talk to her. I had a list of questions (there are sample lists on the internet) and I read them. The nice thing is that these people are therapists - they are going go understand that you are in shambles - that's why you called them. They could show that they are a good therapist for you by putting you at ease and answering your questions. They are the ones being tested - not you.
Good luck. This is SO hard.
Posted by judy1 on June 29, 2003, at 11:47:08
In reply to Re: Therapists - I saw the Future, posted by fallsfall on June 29, 2003, at 10:27:54
I couldn't be happier for you that your new therapist seems like a very kind person.
My ex-therapist dropped me when I attempted suicide (talk about anger issues!) and my new therapist also suggested I talk to him. I wrote everything out but I was an emotional wreck while in his office and don't know how well I related my anger. But it was a step I had to take and that was 3 years ago and quite honestly until I read your post I hadn't really thought about him in over a year. Now I'm really glad I have my present therapist and have a lot healthier therapeutic alliance. wishing you the best- judy
Posted by fallsfall on June 29, 2003, at 12:57:26
In reply to Re: Therapists - I saw the Future » fallsfall, posted by judy1 on June 29, 2003, at 11:47:08
Thanks! That really helped. It is nice to hear when others in similar situations ended up OK.
This is the end of the thread.
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