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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on March 25, 2003, at 21:30:20
In reply to Awww sweet tulip he won't leave you. » Dinah, posted by OddipusRex on March 25, 2003, at 20:14:35
Hi Oddipus.
I'm impressed that you impressed a pdoc. Mine is unflappable.
Oooohhhhh, he's angry all right. That you're playing games with me (I certainly don't intend to) I really just don't know what to do with you anger. :((
Need to make it ok somehow. I panic when he's mad at me.
Posted by Dinah on March 25, 2003, at 21:41:34
In reply to Re: help help ---Dinah » paxvox, posted by bozeman on March 25, 2003, at 21:08:48
lol. yes, i'm trying. but i just don't believe me.
So boyfriend is contrite now. Hmmmm. Make sure you're totally clear on how wonderful you are and just how much you deserve before you even entertain his entreaties. :)
Posted by likelife on March 25, 2003, at 21:50:16
In reply to help help, posted by Dinah on March 25, 2003, at 17:58:48
Ouch. Sounds like you're in the loop--you know, the one in which you (by which I mean one, not just you specifically) circle round and round telling yourself yes/no/yes/no...What about a detour? What happens when you get mad back at him? Or frustrated at his frustration? And so on. I have always been impressed by your compassion for others. Why is it that we always have so little compassion or understanding for ourselves?
My therapist recently told me that I have been "tough," and that others, including several pdocs have agreed. Sigh. I sat on it a while, and then opted to forget it because I just didn't know what to do with it.
Feel better, please?
Posted by kara lynne on March 25, 2003, at 21:53:23
In reply to Re: help help » bozeman, posted by Dinah on March 25, 2003, at 21:41:34
Tell all!
Posted by Dinah on March 25, 2003, at 21:56:04
In reply to Re: help help » Dinah, posted by likelife on March 25, 2003, at 21:50:16
i was going to roll over and show my soft underbelly.
confess to all and promise to do better.
he'll tell me of course that it isn't necessary. that's what they all say once i'm in appeasing mode.
Posted by likelife on March 25, 2003, at 22:04:33
In reply to Re: i can't *do* mad » likelife, posted by Dinah on March 25, 2003, at 21:56:04
Mad gets all wrapped up in passive-aggression, and then minor, though quite infrequent, explosions for me, which leave my husband saying, "Huh?" and my therapist saying, "borderline."
Anyways, I'd want to tell you the same, that it's not necessary to promise to do better. You're doing your best, I'm sure. And I feel sad at your need to make it better--which is often the same as mine. The question is always whether the tension and anxiety you're undergoing now can be helpful in any way--if this is a pattern you've been looking to change.
Just for good measure ((Dinah)).
Who's "they all"?
Posted by Dinah on March 25, 2003, at 22:14:34
In reply to i hear you » Dinah, posted by likelife on March 25, 2003, at 22:04:33
>
> Who's "they all"?I'm fully aware that I project a lot of parental issues onto my relationship with my therapist. (grin) Fortunately that's what he's there for.
I explode too. Or rather I implode. I mainly do self directed anger and aggression. My therapist keeps trying to tell me that that is as bad as hurting someone else. But I don't get that *at all*. I'm quite sure that he doesn't believe it either.
thanks for the hug.
Posted by Dinah on March 25, 2003, at 22:15:42
In reply to Re: i hear you, posted by Dinah on March 25, 2003, at 22:14:34
I am pretty sure i'm past the danger point now.
thanks for your help.
Posted by bozeman on March 25, 2003, at 22:40:33
In reply to Re: ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow, posted by Dinah on March 25, 2003, at 18:21:53
However . . . . the "queen of passive aggressive" part of me wonders if that was the response your therapist was *trying* to get out of you . . . for you to roll over and show your soft underbelly and beg for forgiveness so he can tell you it's unneccessary . . . . and that instead of inner-directed anger, maybe what would be healthy for you and healthy for your therapeutic relationship would be for you to stand up and yell at him (not throw things, just state yourself firmly and clearly and probably loudly) that how dare he get mad at you and expect you to conform to his expectations? If this is traditional psychotherapy (and forgive me, I don't remember if you're doing CBT with him, I assumed not from the longevity of your therapeutic relationship with him) -- if this is traditional psychotherapy isn't the client "in charge" so to speak, with the therapist helping you do "guided" psyche-spelunking so you don't hurt yourself? Isn't this your therapy and your nickel and not his discussion hour? Why should he get mad at you at all?
Then there's the part of me that tells the veteran passive aggressive b*tch in me to put her muzzle back on and go to her corner until she can learn to play nice with others. :-) You know your situation far better than I, and what's best for you. I, too, have dealt with lifelong issues of ridiculous unfounded inadequacy crises and fear of abandonment. And I full well know it's one thing to *intellectually* know that those fears are unfounded, and to *emotionally* release them so they have no power over you. And I know all too well how poisonous inner-directed anger can be (my doctor wryly reminds me of this regularly. :-)
Dinah, I really do feel for where you are, and hope you can find a positive way you feel good about to resolve this without sacrificing your own adult position in your relationship (with your therapist.)
Hugs
bozeman
Posted by Jonathan on March 25, 2003, at 22:53:10
In reply to Re: ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow, posted by Dinah on March 25, 2003, at 18:21:53
What happened (or should have happened but didn't - "frustrated" sounds more like a "something didn't happen" emotion) to make your therapist mad at you?
Is it connected with what you were discussing on this thread?
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20030310/msgs/209371.html
About your therapist seeing your dependence on him as a temporary stage which it should be your objective to outgrow, while you see therapy as an ongoing need like a Type 1 diabetic's need for insulin?
If it is, remember that he said it wouldn't be therapeutic to terminate you if you didn't become independent. Think how much less therapeutic he'd consider it to terminate you now, when you're having to deal with so much stress at work because of your former boss's retirement plus your parents' and your brother's demands on your energy and the war.
I wish I could say something helpful, but I can't because I just cannot imagine anyone being mad at *you*. If I were a therapist and could choose anyone here as a new client, you would definitely be among my first choices. You're *much* better than pizza :)
Jonathan.
Posted by bozeman on March 25, 2003, at 23:01:22
In reply to Bozeman- your ex is contrite?, posted by kara lynne on March 25, 2003, at 21:53:23
Yes . . . in his way. Very sweet and considerate, opening doors etc (which he never does) and missing me desperately. He called me about six times yesterday and five today and insisted we have dinner and talked my ear off. He is very contrite, loves me more than he's ever loved another soul but he can't get past his past yet, maybe never. I'm withholding judgement for now. Noncommital. See how long he can keep it up and if he can actually apologize and (gasp!) compromise. Probably be a cold day in hell. He doesn't mean to be cruel, he's just broken like so many of us. I suspect he's bipolar but he would never go to a pdoc to find out.
And, the central issue on my timetable is, it doesn't matter how much either of us loves the other if we pussyfoot around too long to have a family. Unacceptable. So unless he can get over that (he's not against it, just freezes up over it. He *says* he wants a family but I don't think it's ever been a real concept to him.) It's real to me. He could get a young thing to bear him children in twenty years. I can't. I need to decide now, soon, within the next few years.
Getting what will turn into a migraine if I don't sleep. Will keep you all posted on how it does.
Posted by Tabitha on March 26, 2003, at 0:50:53
In reply to help help, posted by Dinah on March 25, 2003, at 17:58:48
Dinah, do you ever do that Child / Critical Parent / Adult dialog stuff? Drives me nuts but your dialog reminds me of it. The child is the vulnerable scared part (or the happy excited part), the Critical Parent blames and shames the Child, then it's up to you to figure out the Adult response.
Posted by kara lynne on March 26, 2003, at 0:54:19
In reply to Contrite? Yup. Will it matter? Who knows? » kara lynne, posted by bozeman on March 25, 2003, at 23:01:22
Oh god. My frigging achilles heel. To add insult to injury, before this happened with my boyfriend he was actually considering having a child with me. (Llike you say they can go get 'the young thing' down the line 20 years from now--NOT a fair design, mister Higher Power) Yikes! How did this happen! Depression has taken a big cosmic crap on my timeline. I don't want to ask how old you are, even though I do, because I know you'll be younger than me and I'll be reminded there's utterly no chance left! But God, I just have to try like hell not to think like that. I'm not dead yet. (although some days that's questionable)
In any event, I'm proud of you. You sound like you are in a good, empowered position no matter what happens. That can only lead to good things. If it doesn't work out do you want to marry me? (I'm JUST KIDDING--I know I'd be too old for you!!)
Posted by dogboy on March 26, 2003, at 4:43:49
In reply to Re: ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow ow, posted by Dinah on March 25, 2003, at 18:21:53
> my therapist is mad at me :(((((
>
> he says he's frustrated, but what "frustrated" really means is as mad as you can get at a clientOr... what "frustrated" really means is he cares about your well-being?
Posted by OddipusRex on March 26, 2003, at 6:38:47
In reply to Re: Awww sweet tulip he won't leave you. » OddipusRex, posted by Dinah on March 25, 2003, at 21:30:20
Dinah do you think he'd agree to a consult with another doc to get some new ideas? If he doesn't know what else to do and you don't know what to different maybe an outside opinion would get things started again? Good luck
> Oooohhhhh, he's angry all right. That you're playing games with me (I certainly don't intend to) I really just don't know what to do with you anger. :((
>
> Need to make it ok somehow. I panic when he's mad at me.
Posted by OddipusRex on March 26, 2003, at 6:42:44
In reply to Re: ow ow ow ow but your therapist won't fire you » Dinah, posted by bozeman on March 25, 2003, at 22:40:33
Posted by Dinah on March 26, 2003, at 6:46:40
In reply to If you want to talk about it ... » Dinah, posted by Jonathan on March 25, 2003, at 22:53:10
Clever Jonathan. You got it in one guess. Would you be my therapist? :)
I really do assure you that I am a totally exasperating client. I save the worst of my craziness for him.
It was the substitute problem. I thought it was settled, he didn't. Which led to a discussion involving abandonment issues. He can't see why I keep dwelling on that. I can't understand why he doesn't understand why I keep dwelling on that. Leading to his forgetting my asking him to hospitalize me upon termination (which I ended up reminding him of to my own dismay). Leading to lots of tears on my part and helpless frustration and (perhaps resulting) anger on his.
And I got "the look", the one I used to get in my preteens when I had that breakdown. Ick. I hate the look.
We'll straighten it out. At the very least, and being as cynical as can be, (and this statement would anger him), he probably likes my income stream.
I'm feeling better today. But I wish my therapist had your good sense. I've tried to convey to him many times that no matter what happens in session, I expect him to fully cooperate with me, even if it entails straight face lying and tons of reassurance, to patch me together in the last ten minutes or so. I gave him all the hints in the world, yet he was oblivious and continued with honesty. Sheesh, the guy hasn't the sense the good lord gave an armadillo.
Posted by Dinah on March 26, 2003, at 7:05:09
In reply to Re: ow ow ow ow but your therapist won't fire you » Dinah, posted by bozeman on March 25, 2003, at 22:40:33
Chuckle. Adult relationship with my therapist? What a concept. lol
I did wonder a bit yesterday if he was dumb as a post or clever as the devil. But remembering the aggrieved and bewildered tone, I think the answer is probably dumb.
Hmmm. Hard to ask this without implying criticism of him. But my therapist told me that other therapists would tell me to find a new therapist, but that he wasn't doing that. He was definitely not telling me that, just telling me what other therapists would do. And how flexible he was being (in the context of the substitute therapist). But if you said that to a client who is admittedly obsessed with abandonment, wouldn't you kind of expect a meltdown of sorts? I mean, I know it wasn't a threat, but in my more primitive levels it felt like a threat. And that's why I wondered if he were dumb or way too clever.
Of course, I am reporting this through my admittedly biased eyes. I'm quite certain that if you asked him, you would get a completely different account of that session. Like those sitcom he said/she said things.
Insights into my own distorted thinking welcome. Criticisms of him will scare me to death. :)
Thanks,
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on March 26, 2003, at 7:09:30
In reply to Re: help help, posted by Tabitha on March 26, 2003, at 0:50:53
> Dinah, do you ever do that Child / Critical Parent / Adult dialog stuff? Drives me nuts but your dialog reminds me of it. The child is the vulnerable scared part (or the happy excited part), the Critical Parent blames and shames the Child, then it's up to you to figure out the Adult response.
All the time. Oh, wait, the Adult. No, never make it to the Adult. :P
Posted by Dinah on March 26, 2003, at 7:10:07
In reply to Re: ow ow... » Dinah, posted by dogboy on March 26, 2003, at 4:43:49
Posted by Dinah on March 26, 2003, at 7:13:11
In reply to Maybe a consult? » Dinah, posted by OddipusRex on March 26, 2003, at 6:38:47
Wouldn't dream of asking. Wouldn't dream of bringing up the substitute again either. If he takes care of it great. If not I'll let it drop. I'm not going thru yesterday again. Took me half hour in the stairwell before I felt well enough to make it to my car. Another half hour in my car to be safe to drive. It just ain't worth it.
Posted by Dinah on March 26, 2003, at 18:31:11
In reply to help help, posted by Dinah on March 25, 2003, at 17:58:48
He admitted to his part in the disagreement. I admitted to everything, including being the cause of global warming. Things aren't perfect but they are better, and he's not mad at me anymore.
Calm and order have been restored in the Land of Dinah.
Posted by sienna on March 26, 2003, at 20:25:53
In reply to We've worked things mostly out., posted by Dinah on March 26, 2003, at 18:31:11
I know that must be a relief. I too talked to my pdoc today and he didnt sound even one little iota annoyed with me, and hear i was thinking he was mad at me adn couldnt stand me. he actually sounded uhm, concerned and caring. I mean i guess he usually is i just have been so blinded by paranoia that i been thinking hes mad.
Anyway, not to switch the subject to me or anything... hehe. Im glad that you worked thigs out with your T. I bet you will be stronger because of all those feelings youhad.?
sienna
Posted by bozeman on March 27, 2003, at 0:49:43
In reply to Re: help help » bozeman, posted by Dinah on March 25, 2003, at 21:41:34
I looked at him inscrutably and let him wonder what I was thinking.
He'd have curled into a ball if he could have heard it: "I wonder how many days this is going to last before he's back to his old (monosyllabic stoic stubborn) self? What good is sweet and wonderful if you can't *reason* with the man?"
Thanks for the vote of confidence. Keeps me honest and on track. :-)
bozeman
Posted by bozeman on March 27, 2003, at 0:53:50
In reply to Re: ow ow ow ow but your therapist won't fire you » bozeman, posted by Dinah on March 26, 2003, at 7:05:09
:-)
And you of course know that I wasn't being critical of either of you, right? I was just free-associating in my overly dramatic, verbose way.
I'm so glad you two talked and cleared the air. It really worried me that you couldn't drive home for an hour. That was really going to eat at you until you resolved it, so I'm thankful you were able to.
Let the therapy continue!!!
<grin>
bozeman
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