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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 10:19:06
In reply to *sighs*, posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 9:17:34
Oddipus and Lou and I feel one way, most of the rest of you feel another way. That's fine. I actually believe that political correctness is overdone. But I still find myself uncomfortable with jokes about groups. As I've said, you're free to tell me I have no sense of humor.
I just hope that you understand and respect why we feel differently. And it's bound to come up again. If there are midget throwing threads, or redneck threads, or ethnic minority threads, I'm likely to say something. I don't feel like you have to agree with me, but I have to say something.
And I know no one meant to belittle Oddipus Rex's feelings. Perhaps it would be kind of everyone to reassure Rex of that.
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 10:22:11
In reply to Re: *sighs*..me too... » NikkiT2, posted by jay on February 1, 2003, at 9:54:06
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030120/msgs/36022.html
> I just wanted to add the 'intent' of a joke is important too. Like Nikki and many of us have said..there are many jokes about *many* different types of people...especially here in Canada, about 'Canucks'..about some of us 'Newfies'...etc. I did not notice ANY intent to harm in IsoM's humour. What about our humour about little kids? Because we make fun of that, does that mean we hate kids? Man...
>
> Jay
Posted by Ritch on February 1, 2003, at 10:54:49
In reply to Redneck Etiquette Rules, posted by IsoM on January 31, 2003, at 15:19:57
IsoM,
Thanks for that joke! My parents are "rednecks", and I have lived in the rural South for probably half of my life. I guess that makes me 'one' too! I did get my Mom's deer rifle for Christmas last year. One of my best friends is an industrial mechanic and you never see him wearing anything but the navy blue uniforms that he wears at work (with his name patch sewn on of course). What makes this kind of stuff so funny is that it often is so true. There are a lot of Amish around where I live and it is a treat (not a laugh), to see groups of them in WalMart (especially with a cart full of wine and whisky). There was one Amish man with a big salt and pepper beard standing outside WalMart smoking a pipe the other day and the sun was just right-a perfect piece of art-no camera, RATS! I think Globalization is such a BORE. It won't be long before it will be hard to find any of these kind-hearted people that are so tuned into their environment *outside*.
Posted by OddipusRex on February 1, 2003, at 12:13:13
In reply to Re: Redneck Etiquette Rules » IsoM, posted by Ritch on February 1, 2003, at 10:54:49
I found this site that talks about dealing with racism, specifically ethnic humour. I think it says well what I think. I object to ethnic humour because I am a human not because I am a member of any particular group. It's from a conference for educators in Canada and I think it's appropriate. I come from sort of the same perspective as Lou. I think when kids are subjected to name calling and ethnic stereotypes that suggest they are ignorant, violent, and smelly it's bad. Whether their families are called wetbacks or gooks or rednecks, it doesn't make any difference. If you want to hurt someone, label them and attack their whole culture. This forum is a public place. Jokes that people may choose to tell in private are not appropriate here. I don't think anyone here is consciously trying to harm other people. But then I don't think I'm being some kind of unreasonable hypersensitive killjoy either, so what do I know?
http://www.bctf.ca/social/BuildingBridges/support/respond.html
Situation A: The Ethnic Joke
A group of co-workers are sitting around at lunch when one of them tells a particularly disgusting joke ridiculing a minority group. Some people laugh; others look embarrassed. No one makes any critical comments. What could you do in this situation?Response 1: Do Nothing
In such situations there are many excuses not to intervene. We think we might lose a friend or antagonise a co-worker. After all, ethnic humour is socially acceptable. What really happens when someone tells an ethnic joke is that an entire community is subjected to ridicule. Ethnic humour is a subtle form of racism that dehumanises whole peoples. Once people are dehumanised, it is not such a great step to actively discriminate against them.
We don't tell jokes about those we view with respect. We tend to tell jokes about those that our society looks down upon - Indo-Canadians, people from Newfoundland, Quebecois, etc. Rare indeed is the Canadian who tells ethnic jokes about Americans.
As long as ethnic humour goes unchallenged, it and racism will be socially acceptable.Response 2: Get Even
You denounce the offender as a racist, showing the offender that not everyone shares his or her beliefs. You might feel better because you have acted. The problem is that the offender is probably telling the joke out of insecurity or a need to be part of the group. This response might increase the insecurity that led to the joke in the first place, while you, yourself, may be seen as "overly sensitive".Response 3: Educate
You explain to the offender that the joke is based on inaccurate information, that the minority group concerned does not have the particular trait being ridiculed. This is a more positive response because you are not only challenging the behaviour, but the misinformation behind it. Unfortunately, until you get the offender to examine the insecurity which prompted the joke in the first place, he or she might not be open to the education.Response 4: Take the Fear Away
You say, "I feel uncomfortable when I hear that kind of a jokeî. Turn to the person sitting next to you and ask, "How do you feel?" Continue by explaining, "The reason it makes me feel uncomfortable is that I think it dehumanises people." By this time, the other people who looked embarrassed may be encouraged to discuss how they feel. In this way, without being directly challenged, the offender is encouraged to examine the feelings of insecurity that led to the telling of the joke. The offender may then be open to positive education.
Posted by jane d on February 1, 2003, at 12:27:38
In reply to Re: Sleeping as still as possible--Dinah, posted by jodie on February 1, 2003, at 0:49:03
> When my cat is laying on me, I try not to move, so I don't disturb him. I end up in these really funny positions, trying to make room for the pets. It's so kind of the dogs and cats to let us share "their" bed with them. Except when my dogs have gas (uhhhh it is horrible), I have to claim the bed back!!!
Jodie,
You got yours to "share" with you? How on earth did you convince them?
Jane, who was always told that indulgence of pets was a part of her non - redneck heritage
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 12:32:34
In reply to Ethnic Jokes, posted by OddipusRex on February 1, 2003, at 12:13:13
Have you never told a blonde joke?? Or anything along those lines??
Or are ones like that OK?
I am sitting here ttrying to think of a joke that doesn't take the mickey out of someone or something... I can't think of one off the top of my head.
Nikki
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 1, 2003, at 12:32:39
In reply to Ethnic Jokes, posted by OddipusRex on February 1, 2003, at 12:13:13
OR,
You wrote,[...I come from the same perspective as Lou...]. You also wrote ,[..this is a public place...].
I believe that you have added a good addition to my perspective,ie; that this board is [public].
Being a public board gives a different set of conciousness to the poster than if the poster said what was posted in [private].
This rest of your post is too comprehensive for me to be able to use the time and space available to me here to comment on, but it is worthy of more discussion.
Best regards,
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 1, 2003, at 12:37:18
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » OddipusRex, posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 12:32:34
NikkiT2,
You wrote,[...take the {micky} out of something...]
Could you clarify what is meant by [....the {micky}..]? If you could, then I could be better able to discuss with you in regards to the subject in question here on this thread.
Lou
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 12:46:32
In reply to Ethnic Jokes, posted by OddipusRex on February 1, 2003, at 12:13:13
I looked up the origin of the term redneck on google, and here is some of what I found.
http://www.sonic.net/College-in-a-Can/proftalk/319.html
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=rednecks
So it does, and always has, had a class connotation.
Posted by jane d on February 1, 2003, at 12:46:34
In reply to Re: standing by my view ... » Dinah, posted by jay on January 31, 2003, at 21:20:11
> Dinah:
>
> Well, first off, 'rednecks' aren't a social class, and they aren't a racial class. The term is used for someones social and political values.Jay,
I think this is a part of why you don't understand the conflict here. Your definition of redneck is not the only one that exists. It is one meaning but, at least here in the states, it can have all sorts of other meanings depending on who uses it. It has been used so often by people who believe that all members of the white, southern, working class are by definition bigots, who believe that uneducated means unintelligent, that it is part of the meaning of the term now. I think it's very dangerous to assume you know all the connotations of any phrase used here. There are so many differences not just between Canada and the US, but between different parts of the country and different classes as well.Jane, who doesn't understand half the terms used by the other Americans on this site, let alone the rest of you people.
Posted by jay on February 1, 2003, at 13:22:41
In reply to Re: Try to understand OTHER'S view » jay, posted by jane d on February 1, 2003, at 12:46:34
Hey, I have *no* problem making fun of bigots! I am not going to be "p.c." and say "ohhh..those KKK Nazis need love too...". You gotta draw the line *somewhere*..Jay
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 13:34:19
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on February 1, 2003, at 12:37:18
Sorry.. thats a British thing.. its a polite way of saying "take the piss"
Nikki
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 1, 2003, at 13:54:52
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 13:34:19
NikkiT2,
You wrote what the British phrase ,[Micky], means. But could you clarify your replacement for {Micky}in regards to what [take the --- out of] means for the new pharase, also, is not understood by me. If you could clarify [...take the --- out of...], then I could have a better understanding of what you are writing and be better able to respond to your post.
Lou
Posted by dreamerz on February 1, 2003, at 14:07:29
In reply to British phrases » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on February 1, 2003, at 13:54:52
Hi Lou..
The phrases both mean to ridicule , make fun of.
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 14:32:48
In reply to British phrases » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on February 1, 2003, at 13:54:52
Sorry..
Yes, dreamerz said it better than me.. to make fun of...
nikki
Posted by jane d on February 1, 2003, at 14:34:18
In reply to I *don't* have/or want to *understand* bigotry! » jane d, posted by jay on February 1, 2003, at 13:22:41
>
> Hey, I have *no* problem making fun of bigots! I am not going to be "p.c." and say "ohhh..those KKK Nazis need love too...". You gotta draw the line *somewhere*..
>
> JayNeither do I. One of my favorite targets is the bigots on the left (and that would be my own side of the political fence by the way) who assume that you can make assumptions about someone's beliefs based on their social class or the accent they speak with or even whether they have a rifle mounted in their pickup truck and throw beer cans out the window.
To throw another stereotype into the mix this blind spot seems to be particularly common among educated, middle class residents of northeastern cities whose only exposure to southerners in on TV reruns. It's fascinating to see that this bias can cross national bounderies as well.
Jane,
who actually enjoyed some of the jokes and is trying to come up with the appropriate Northeastern Intellectual Snob counterparts (for private distribution only, of course)
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 1, 2003, at 15:09:01
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » OddipusRex, posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 12:32:34
NikkiT2,
You wrote,[...trying to think of a joke that doesn't take the {micky}[which has been posted to mean],{to make fun of} out of someone or something...].
Are you saying, then, that posts that make fun of people, are to be permitted to be posted here because, in general, you can not think if a joke that does not [take the micky out of someone or something...]? If so, could you clarify if there could be a rational that you could propose that could be used to separate posts that make fun of people, or ridicule people, that could be deemed to be [not OK here], and those that could be deemed [OK here] to post? If you could, then we could discuss whether or not the post in question here could be deemed either [OK or not OK to post here], by the basis of your proposed rational. For example, could you use two examples to separate into either [OK or not OK] to post here by the basis of your proposed rational? If you could, then I could have a better understanding of your previous posts and be better able to discuss them with you.
Lou
Posted by Tabitha on February 1, 2003, at 15:21:49
In reply to Ethnic Jokes, posted by OddipusRex on February 1, 2003, at 12:13:13
Oddipus, I wish we could all do #4. You could tell us how the joke made you feel, IsoM could tell us how your reaction to her post made her feel, and everyone else could jump in with their feelings and associations about it. Then we could struggle to understand and accept each others' reactions.
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 15:26:51
In reply to I *don't* have/or want to *understand* bigotry! » jane d, posted by jay on February 1, 2003, at 13:22:41
>
> Hey, I have *no* problem making fun of bigots! I am not going to be "p.c." and say "ohhh..those KKK Nazis need love too...". You gotta draw the line *somewhere*..
>
> JayJay, why do you assume that rednecks are KKK Nazi, racist, sexist, child beaters? Isn't that a pretty broad opinion to have of an entire group of people? A white member of the Southern rural laboring class is not necessarily any of those things. If you dislike KKK Nazi, racist, sexist childbeaters, why don't you just say that? I'm assuming you don't automatically dislike Southerners or laborers. If you do, then of course there is no need to say more...
A couple of relevant definitions from Merriam-Webster Online.
Main Entry: red·neck
Pronunciation: 'red-"nek
Function: noun
Date: 1830
1 sometimes disparaging : a white member of the Southern rural laboring class
2 often disparaging : a person whose behavior and opinions are similar to those attributed to rednecks*NOTE (from Dinah) it says attributed to rednecks, not belonging to rednecks. Who is doing the attributing?
Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1661
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
- big·ot·ed /-g&-t&d/ adjective
- big·ot·ed·ly adverb
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 15:53:43
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on February 1, 2003, at 15:09:01
Lou,
All I was saying is that ALL jokes make fun of someone or something.. I asked if OddipusRex has ever made a joke?? I was just trying to point out that if he had done so, he would have been making fun of someone.
I said NO MORE than that, so please do not see things which aren't there.
have you *ever* told a joke Lou?? I think most people have done.
Nikki
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 1, 2003, at 15:58:54
In reply to Re: British phrases » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 14:32:48
NikkiT2,
Perhaps you could write after reading the following if they could be either OK or not OK to be posted on this board, or give some other examples to illustrate your point and your rational for such.
A) A man enters his psychiatrist's office and says to him, "Hello". The psychiatrist replys, "What do you mean by that?"
B) A man visits a psychiatrist and tells him that he is there to tell him that his wife thinks that she is a chicken. The psychiatrist says, "How long has she thought that she was a chicken?" The man answers, "Two years." The psychiatrists says to him, "Why havn't you come to me sooner?" The man answers, "We needed the eggs."
Lou
Posted by Ritch on February 1, 2003, at 16:06:07
In reply to Re: FYI, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 12:46:32
> I looked up the origin of the term redneck on google, and here is some of what I found.
>
> http://www.sonic.net/College-in-a-Can/proftalk/319.html
>
> http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=rednecks
>
> So it does, and always has, had a class connotation.
>
>Dinah, yes it is more of a geo-socio-economic thing rather than an ethnic one. My parents families are poor white people and I have been poor most of my life and lived in a rural area in the South. I just *identified* with the humor, it just seems the NAME is what sets everything awry. Perhaps hayseed instead? Geez, didn't mean to offend anybody.
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2003, at 16:20:27
In reply to Re: FYI » Dinah, posted by Ritch on February 1, 2003, at 16:06:07
Ritch, I hate to be overly sensitive, but doesn't it bother you that when someone says redneck someone else thinks of KKK and child beaters? Don't you think that jokes have a part in that? Jokes have traditionally been used to label groups and desensitize people to hatred.
I don't like to argue, really. But sometimes saying nothing seems like it's saying something.
I'm not talking so much now about IsoM's original jokes. I am sure she didn't mean to unleash what she did. And maybe it would have gone away quicker had Oddipus or I or Lou said nothing. But I've never been a big believer in peace at all costs.
I don't mean to offend you, or IsoM, or Jay, or anyone. I'm sure that a lot of this is just confusion over terminology.
I'm sorry that Oddipus was hurt by getting the impression that her values were being scoffed at. (I'm kind of used to it by now, but it used to hurt me.) I'm sure IsoM is hurt that her jokes were taken in a way that she never intended. And I'm sure that Jay is hurt too. So much hurt all the way around.
As for you, you never offended me at all. You have a different opinion about redneck jokes, that's all.
Posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 16:23:34
In reply to Re: British phrases » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on February 1, 2003, at 15:58:54
Lou,
I'm not getting into whether I think certain jokes could be seen as offensive. That could go on forever.
Sorry, so I will not comment on these.
Nikki
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 1, 2003, at 16:25:53
In reply to Re: Ethnic Jokes » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on February 1, 2003, at 15:53:43
NikkiT2,
You wrote,[...please do not see things which are not there...]. Could you write what I wrote that made you conclude that I [...see things that are not there...]? If you could , then I could look at it again and make any clarifications, if needed.
Lou
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