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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 27. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by coral on January 16, 2003, at 14:44:21
Dear Dinah:
You mentioned being enraged, stating it in a flat, emotionless tone. Aside from life's minor irritations (and I'll flash angry, like a firecracker), when I am truly angry, enraged, my anger is absolutely stone-cold and expressed in an extremely intellectual manner. It takes a great deal for me to ever get to that point but when I do, heaven help the cause. Is this similar to your experience?
Thanks,
Coral
Posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 16:52:23
In reply to Question re: Anger for Dinah, posted by coral on January 16, 2003, at 14:44:21
Yes, generally it is. And after over 20 years of knowing me, my husband is still surprised that I'm serious. Some people are slow learners. :)
I guess when I'm really angry, it seems important to maintain complete control.
Is that why you do it?
Posted by IsoM on January 16, 2003, at 17:24:41
In reply to Re: Question re: Anger for Dinah » coral, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 16:52:23
Boy, I wish I could maintain the quiet, cold exterior when I get angry. I don't get that angry very often, but stupidly, my body reacts by bursting into tears. I hate it as I'm not sad at all but extreme emotion tends to do that to me. Yet, strangely when I feel saddened by something & my eyes start to dammpen, I sneeze hard a few times instead. Go figure!
Posted by coral on January 16, 2003, at 19:37:44
In reply to Re: Question re: Anger for Dinah » coral, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 16:52:23
Interesting question. Frankly, I've never thought about the control issue but when I am truly angry, I am in absolute control. I don't say things I don't mean when I'm angry. When not angry, I would certainly phrase it differently.... as tactfully as I could, but I also don't phrase my thoughts to be intentionally hurtful when I'm angry, just absolute, straight-forward. I'm also extremely focused at that time. I'm rather an intense person anyway, so it's formidable under those circumstances.
Posted by Noa on January 16, 2003, at 20:12:05
In reply to Re: anger and control, posted by IsoM on January 16, 2003, at 17:24:41
I'm the type who, when enraged, turns into a sobbing infant--the tears just start and don't stop. I feel powerless and overwhelmed by the anger. I get rageful and say stupid things and when alone, I have sometimes thrown things or torn things up or slammed things, etc. I am the loss of control you gals fear! And I withdraw, because of the fear stirred up by the loss of control--I am afraid my rage will destroy me and the world.
This doesn't happen often, but it does happen in situations where I feel I am being treated unjustly, or feel helpless or powerless.
I don't stay in anger very long. Shortly, the anger shifts into shutdown mode/depression. Sometimes it is bypassed altogether--gears just slip and go right into depression.
Posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 20:53:21
In reply to Re: anger and control, posted by Noa on January 16, 2003, at 20:12:05
Yes, that fear is why I cling to control. My parents were big into loud rages and my mother rarely spanked me but when she did she was out of control. So feeling out of control anger frightens me into control. Besides, maintaining my control when my mother lost hers drove her crazy. :)
I do do the crying too, but in different circumstances, usually more shame than anger. I got a traffic ticket once and had to sit and cry for a half hour.
Posted by Noa on January 17, 2003, at 6:31:18
In reply to Re: anger and control » Noa, posted by Dinah on January 16, 2003, at 20:53:21
My parents were rather unemotional. My mom was angry a lot, but it came out as loud and forceful criticism and not as raging, or screaming--certainly never crying. Interesting how we are kind of the opposite of our parents.
Re--shame: this is a big part of why I get so upset when I am angry, why it is hard for me to be angry/assertive/articulate. I just start losing it and either withdraw or start crying.
Posted by judy1 on January 18, 2003, at 11:28:02
In reply to Re: anger and control, posted by Noa on January 16, 2003, at 20:12:05
Just so you don't feel alone- that's exactly how I react, extremely emotional then finally ending up in a locked closet so no one can see me- especially my kids. I get so worried how that affects them. My mother was like that- plates flying past my father's head, perhaps I did learn it from there, or is it a part of my disorder(s) especially mood disregulation. OK, start the nature vs. nurture debate :-)- judy
Posted by M. Lee on January 19, 2003, at 13:17:18
In reply to Question re: Anger for Dinah, posted by coral on January 16, 2003, at 14:44:21
Coral,
> You mentioned being enraged, stating it in a flat, emotionless tone. Aside from life's minor irritations (and I'll flash angry, like a firecracker), when I am truly angry, enraged, my anger is absolutely stone-cold and expressed in an extremely intellectual manner. It takes a great deal for me to ever get to that point but when I do, heaven help the cause. Is this similar to your experience?
>It's not just "similar" to what I experience. It is _exactly_ how I would describe what happens with me.
I have often been accused of being "brutally honest" Even though I did not intend to say something hurtfull. I really believe (when I am in that state) that I am just expressing my feelings objectively.
It does not happen often. Usually it is something that has been bothering a little bit, but for a long while. Then I just snap from frustrated to this calm (almost detached) manner of describing what's in my head. The things I end up saying are rarely taken the way that I intended.
Posted by coral on January 19, 2003, at 14:01:12
In reply to Re: Question re: Anger » coral, posted by M. Lee on January 19, 2003, at 13:17:18
I think that has to do with the fact that most people say things in anger they don't mean so when the fight's over, people apologize for what they've said. In good conscience, I can't apologize for the content, although I can apologize for being tactless. Like you, I don't get to that point of anger very often. In fact, it's quite rare. However, I can get there very fast if there is a clear threat - typically to someone else.
In an earlier post, someone said it was a fear of being out of control or a need to be in control for them. For me, being in control doesn't even factor into the equation. I simply am in absolute control.
Posted by M. Lee on January 19, 2003, at 15:00:34
In reply to Re: Question re: Anger M Lee, posted by coral on January 19, 2003, at 14:01:12
> I think that has to do with the fact that most people say things in anger they don't mean so when the fight's over, people apologize for what they've said. In good conscience, I can't apologize for the content, although I can apologize for being tactless. Like you, I don't get to that point of anger very often. In fact, it's quite rare. However, I can get there very fast if there is a clear threat - typically to someone else.
>
> In an earlier post, someone said it was a fear of being out of control or a need to be in control for them. For me, being in control doesn't even factor into the equation. I simply am in absolute control.I've been trying to figure out how and why I get to that place.
I, also, feel that it is not a control thing (like you described, I _am_ in control)
I'm wondering it if it's because I tend to hold back on things that bother me for too long. Like, maybe after being frustrated (and emtionally upset) by not being able to express myself tactfully, I then get "fed up" and "beyond" emotional. Just say what I feel without holding _anything_ back. It's kind of like a huricane - those around me say they feel the gale, but at the eye of the storm there is not the slightest breeze...
Posted by coral on January 19, 2003, at 15:23:01
In reply to Re: Question re: Anger M Lee » coral, posted by M. Lee on January 19, 2003, at 15:00:34
I know exactly what you mean.
I'm not particularly emotional (or emotionally expressive) anyway and when a conflict ensues, I tend to be very reasonable, then reasonable, then, reasonable once more.... then, that's it.
Posted by coral on January 19, 2003, at 15:25:40
In reply to Re: Question re: Anger M Lee, posted by coral on January 19, 2003, at 15:23:01
I've also had extensive training in debate and conflict resolution (as well as train those topics) and as the tempers rise, mine gets cooler and cooler, until it's stone cold. I've been told that I'm difficult to fight with because "emotional" slings tend to bounce off me.
Posted by shar on January 20, 2003, at 12:22:35
In reply to Re: Question re: Anger M Lee, posted by coral on January 19, 2003, at 15:25:40
Someone said something about being brutally honest when angry and that reminded me of a quote I read "the person who is brutally honest enjoys the brutality as much as the honesty."
Being in a typing mood, I figured I'd just express my own, very own, opinions and ideas on the topic.
I think that often when people get hurt by anger it's because we aren't talking about how WE feel (I'm angry that we don't spend enough time together) but about some feature we perceive in the *other* person (YOU don't care about our relationship, you say you do, but then ...). Two very different things, with different outcomes. I think the most honest expression of anger is "I'm pissed at you!"
It's very hard to keep things focused on one's own anger, what that's about, without jumping into the other person's head/heart/etc. UNLESS one is aware of the goal of the discussion. IOW, is the goal of expressing anger to let someone know how you are feeling inside, or is it to get revenge for feeling hurt or scared (lashing out)? BTW, IMHO, revenge is not a bad thing necessarily, but a very different goal.
Additionally, again IMHO, most often there is something underlying the anger. Usually fear, sometimes pain. And, anger often boils down to the other person not doing something we want, the absence of which scares us or threatens us in some way. I believe this also applies to cases of 'righteous anger.' So, we end up cutting someone to ribbons (which can be done calmly, sweetly, kindly, or while ranting) which is different (yet again, IMHO) than expressing anger. And, I think when we do this, the goal is often to get them to change so WE feel better, or give them 'food for thought' (which, after digesting, if they have the sense of a gnat, they will use to change themselves for the better).
The exception to this, IMHO (yet again!), is dealing with people who have some sort of (como se dice in politically correct terms?) mental problem that makes them sort of psycho. Like, dealing with an angry, drunk person is not the same as dealing with an angry balanced person. Or, some of the more debilitating mental illnesses that interfere with regular thought (schizophrenia might be one, or BP 2). In those instances, I think it rarely matters what we do, because it isn't a true dialogue.
To step in it one step further...in relationships, so 'they' say and IMHO, it is good to ask for what you want. However, when angry, we often end up asking for (or telling) what we don't want. Telling someone what we want means we're more likely to get it (depending on the relationship and the other person and their goals, etc.) because the other knows what we're talking about. Such as, "I don't want you to watch so much TV" or "we never talk" could be "I want to spend more time together" or, even better, "I want to spend three evenings a week together" and following that up, if the partner agrees, with what might be fun to do together, how to manage schedules, etc. This can work if everybody is pretty aboveboard with how they feel.
The way I dissect it, "I'm sick of you watching TV all the time" = "I feel lonely and rejected and miss you" = "I'm afraid we'll grow apart" = "I'm scared you'll leave." In our society, there is a lot of shame attached to being lonely, scared, feeling rejected...but, being angry is very acceptable. But, that's just my point of view.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
These opinions are my very own, culled from my experiences (and a ton of therapy), and I'm 'sharing' so I hope nobody will feel unduly imposed upon by them, or perceive this to be a treatise on "how other's should be." Just my humble ideas and opinions. People should not believe that I actually adhere to any of these things I talk about....Shar
Posted by coral on January 21, 2003, at 4:53:52
In reply to Anger, Honesty, Me, You, posted by shar on January 20, 2003, at 12:22:35
Dear Shar:
Ahh, I do so enjoy your posts!
SHAR: Someone said something about being brutally honest when angry and that reminded me of a quote I read "the person who is brutally honest enjoys the brutality as much as the honesty."
Me: I couldn't agree more. "I'm just being frank," or "I'm just being honest" as an excuse to deliver blisteringly painful messages is extreme cruelty. In my experience, such people do this whether they're angry or not. They either don't care about the other person's feelings or they enjoy the brutality.
Am I brutal when I'm angry? I don't know. You mentioned "righteous" anger. I suppose this would fall in that category. My father was in a medically-induced coma and a doctor came in and started to do something. I asked the doctor who he was and what he was doing. He said he was a doctor, giving a treatment and for me not to interfere. I physically moved between my father and the doctor and said, "You're not touching my father until I know who you are and what you're doing." Turns out, the doctor was in the wrong room, wrong patient. Of course, it could've turned out differently - perhaps he'd been asked by my father's doctor to do something ....
As always, you've given me food for thought!
xoxoxo
Coral
Posted by noa on January 21, 2003, at 5:41:58
In reply to Re: Anger, Honesty, Me, You, posted by coral on January 21, 2003, at 4:53:52
That was very assertive of you! From what I hear from friends whose parents have been in hospital, we need to be assertive in checking these things. My friend's mom had numerous mistakes made in her treatment in hospital.
Posted by rayww on January 21, 2003, at 9:43:21
In reply to Anger, Honesty, Me, You, posted by shar on January 20, 2003, at 12:22:35
Great thinking here. So, if an employee comes wreathing into the office of her employeer demanding he oil the hinge of her squeaky door, what she is really saying is, "I need to know you care about me as a person". If I were that employeer, I would set that at the top of my priorities, and rather than assign it to someone else, dress the part, come into work early, go through the complete ritual of being the mechanic, and fix the squeaky door.
If my mom, who I haven't visited for awhile calls and in a grouchy voice says she needs her bulletin board recovered because it bugs her every time she looks at it, and her hair needs trimmed, and she needs new apron strings sewn onto her apron before it drives her around the bend, I should realize the issue is not the bulletin board, the apron, or her hair as much as her own unmet emotional needs, wherein these other things simply fall into the well, and follow the conduit to the pit of her pain. By healing the "things" I also heal her pain.
Posted by shar on January 21, 2003, at 23:06:03
In reply to Re: Anger, Honesty, Me, You » shar, posted by rayww on January 21, 2003, at 9:43:21
As always, you are entitled to your own analysis and interpretation of what I wrote.
Shar
> Great thinking here. So, if an employee comes wreathing into the office of her employeer demanding he oil the hinge of her squeaky door, what she is really saying is, "I need to know you care about me as a person". If I were that employeer, I would set that at the top of my priorities, and rather than assign it to someone else, dress the part, come into work early, go through the complete ritual of being the mechanic, and fix the squeaky door.
>
> If my mom, who I haven't visited for awhile calls and in a grouchy voice says she needs her bulletin board recovered because it bugs her every time she looks at it, and her hair needs trimmed, and she needs new apron strings sewn onto her apron before it drives her around the bend, I should realize the issue is not the bulletin board, the apron, or her hair as much as her own unmet emotional needs, wherein these other things simply fall into the well, and follow the conduit to the pit of her pain. By healing the "things" I also heal her pain.
Posted by coral on January 24, 2003, at 15:49:30
In reply to Anger, Honesty, Me, You, posted by shar on January 20, 2003, at 12:22:35
Dear Shar,
Your post really has me thinking . . . . ruminations over anger. It's one of the issues that came out in therapy (that I don't acknowledge my own anger). You've given me a mental maze.
xoxoxo
Coral
Posted by Phil on January 24, 2003, at 17:39:45
In reply to Anger, Honesty, Me, You, posted by shar on January 20, 2003, at 12:22:35
Shar, Thanks for not mentioning me by name. : )
BTW Shar, we could still meet at Starbucks sometime and pour our pills out on the table like the old days. I found one that takes my insurance and the copay on a Mocha Frap is like $.50. You know, if you drink 10 of those you can cop a pretty good buzz.
Phil of sh*t.
Posted by M. Lee on January 24, 2003, at 20:36:55
In reply to Anger, Honesty, Me, You, posted by shar on January 20, 2003, at 12:22:35
This thread has given me a lot to think about. I brought up anger in therapy today. Not my most pressing problem, at the moment. But, certainly something that I need to work on.
I'm still not sure where it comes from, but it's good to be able to talk about it here and listen to other people's experiences. It gives me some perspective.
Posted by shar on January 25, 2003, at 1:14:39
In reply to Re: Anger, Honesty, Me, You to Shar, posted by coral on January 24, 2003, at 15:49:30
Coral,
I've struggled with the anger issue, too. You know, they say depression is good old anger turned inward. While I don't agree with that 100% (because I think some depression is mainly chemical imbalance) I do think it can apply to people like me...having a sort of low grade chronic depression with bouts of serious stuff. My therapist said homicidal ideation is much better than suicidal ideation--and that's when the anger is directed outward. So, anger is powerful stuff, and can be good for survival.When I've dealt more intensively on anger in therapy, I always end up with a bunch of family of origin dreck. I have a hard time expressing anger while looking angry (I can do it calmly), and there is a ton of shame attached to it. In my family, "loss of control" (which would be showing anger) was much worse than taking action on one's own behalf. Tho' it was ok to get angry on behalf of someone else (like coming between a doctor and family member). If anger was "only" because the individual felt it, and there was no "good reason" for it, it was just a sign of weakness and selfishness. So, I learned to handle it the "right" way.
I can now fight with my therapist, and tell her I'm pissed at her without worrying too much that she'll call and tell me not to bother coming back. (A little humor in that, but pretty much true.)
Seems I recall you being the recipient of a fair amount of shelling (as in being on the battlefield) without it being predictable or based in reality.
Or, was that me?......8-)
Shar
> Dear Shar,
>
> Your post really has me thinking . . . . ruminations over anger. It's one of the issues that came out in therapy (that I don't acknowledge my own anger). You've given me a mental maze.
>
> xoxoxo
>
> Coral
Posted by shar on January 25, 2003, at 1:21:19
In reply to Re: Anger, Honesty, Me, You » shar, posted by Phil on January 24, 2003, at 17:39:45
> Shar, Thanks for not mentioning me by name. : )
........You're welcome. It just didn't seem right. 8-)
>
> BTW Shar, we could still meet at Starbucks sometime and pour our pills out on the table like the old days.........sounds good to me. I'll have to see when I can afford refills on my meds.
>I found one that takes my insurance and the copay on a Mocha Frap is like $.50. You know, if you drink 10 of those you can cop a pretty good buzz.
......cool!! Maybe I can talk you into scoring a frap for me using your copay--I'll double the amount and kick it back to you. (Hey...I think this could be a good business idea if we already know how to get kickbacks.)
8-)
Shar
>
> Phil of sh*t.
Posted by coral on January 26, 2003, at 7:52:44
In reply to Re: Anger, Honesty, Me, You » coral, posted by shar on January 25, 2003, at 1:14:39
Dear Shar,
Congrats on the progress re: expressing anger w/your therapist!!
Your memory serves you well --- as you said, lots of shelling . . . my brother was handicapped and there's an incredible dynamic of healthy people being responsible for themselves in that type of family setting. Plus, problems with an older sib as an adult (that's a whole story in itself).
I'm come to think that there's a whole lot of stuffing re: anger and, thankfully, I deal with those emotions very differently now than pre-depression. My therapist also said that a huge chunk of my depression was caused by the stuffing.
There's no concern for me about a loss of control. However, there are consequences when something has happened to cause anger. (I don't know that I'm expressing that well). As the stakes get higher, I become very mentally precise and I become very aware of what I'm saying and, if things continue to worsen, that's when I hit the stone-coldness.
Still ruminating . . .
Coral
Posted by Greg on January 27, 2003, at 18:04:12
In reply to Re: Anger, Honesty, Me, You » coral, posted by shar on January 25, 2003, at 1:14:39
> My therapist said homicidal ideation is much better than suicidal ideation--
Wow Shar, this part of your post really jumped out at me. I was floored by the statement. If it's not being too personal or bringing up something that might be harmful to you, could expand on what prompted her to make this statement? You may already have, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer these days...I'm trying to understand what would make either one better than the other, especially if there was even the slightest chance that a person might act on them.
Thanks sweetie,
Greg
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