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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 29. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Alii on January 8, 2003, at 18:49:39
... >> Alii, you say you don't mean to make any jabs, yet when I read your post I see some jabs. It sounds like you're subtly suggesting that beardy did intend to be hurtful. Since she has already apologized and told us she did not intend to be hurtful, that comes off like a little jab to me. THere's also the statement about how some of her posts are enlightening, and some are -----. Although you include everyone else and yourself in this description, it still comes off like a jab to me.
>>Sorry to pick apart your words like this, but I get a little frustrated with you at times. Most of the time I really enjoy your posts, but then at other times they seem to have some subtle insults that just make me leery of you.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030104/msgs/34840.html
~~~~~~~~~~~Thanks Tabby for your kind words. It is hard to know if either apology (yours or beardy's) is sincere due to the nature of communication over the Internet. But I appreciate the attempts no matter what energy they were made with.
In truth, only I could know the full intent of what I post. In the same aspect, only you know the complete truth behind your words. For me to say that I don't think you truly are sorry for picking apart my words, for you telling me I'm frustrating, for saying that I seemingly post with the subtle intent of insulting others; all of these things really don't carry much meaning.
I'm glad you've gotten these things off your chest Tabitha. Perhaps next time you are frustrated with me and feel the need to communicate in such a forthright manner you could begin a separate thread so that we could discuss this apart from the subject of the original thread, but I think this discussion has run its course.
Touché.
~Alii
Posted by Kar on January 8, 2003, at 23:58:07
In reply to It feels so good to know Tabitha is leery of me..., posted by Alii on January 8, 2003, at 18:49:39
Posted by Alii on January 9, 2003, at 3:02:22
In reply to I'm not in this, but *touche*??!! (nm) » Alii, posted by Kar on January 8, 2003, at 23:58:07
Kar,
Here are a couple of definitions of touché:
From Merriam-Webster OnLine:
touché
Function: interjection
Etymology: French, from past participle of toucher to touch, from Old French tuchier
Date: 1904
-- used to acknowledge a hit in fencing or the success or appropriateness of an argument, an accusation, or a witty pointwitty
Adj. 1. possessing wit in speech or writing; amusingly clever in perception and expression: a witty writer. 2. characterized by wit: a witty remark. 3. Brit. Dialect intelligent; clever.From Webster’s Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language (1989 edition):
touché
Interj. 1. Fencing. (an expression used to indicate a hit or touch.) 2. (an expression used to for acknowledging a telling remark or rejoinder.)rejoinder
n. 1. an answer to a reply; response.Please clarify if you feel that somehow my usage of that word was somehow offensive or insulting. The definitions I've given here show the usage of touché in a positive light, not one of derision.
~Alii
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 9, 2003, at 7:29:22
In reply to Re: I'm not in this, but *touche*??!! » Kar, posted by Alii on January 9, 2003, at 3:02:22
To me, its always means you've been a bitch.. if someone is bitchy toward to someone, then we say touche..
Thats my understanding of the word, and yes, it does seem to fit.
Nikki
Posted by Dinah on January 9, 2003, at 8:17:49
In reply to I've never known Touche to mean intelligent; cleve, posted by NikkiT2 on January 9, 2003, at 7:29:22
Hmmm. Perhaps this is part of the cause of misunderstandings between people. Different useage of the same word.
I have always known touche' to be used in its fencing context, to acknowledge a direct hit. When I say it to someone, I generally mean "Ouch, that hurt because it's got some truth to it." Now I'm wondering what other people think I mean. Not to mention what other people mean when they say it to me. :)
Oh well, semantics can be fun sometimes. But this time I'm just sad at it all.
Posted by kid a on January 9, 2003, at 9:02:17
In reply to Re: I've never known Touche to mean intelligent; cleve » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2003, at 8:17:49
> Oh well, semantics can be fun sometimes. But this time I'm just sad at it all.
I think you should try to grow a thicker skin if you're going to be the one to break up fights.
I believe, truly, in the Nietzschen concept of dynamism, in that great progress can be made because of conflict.
Senseless conflict can have dastardly effects, but well penned treatise on our own feelings are In my opinion an excelent way to air our grievences...
Conflict is a part of life, no one is name calling or being imature here, you should hang around my bad internet neighborhoods, then you'd really see the bullets fly.
Without conflict, It's doubtfull that any of us would even be here...
As far as touche goes, perhaps all language looses some of its meaning when strained through the lack of intonation rife amoungst the printed word... Its far too much bother to dread though.
Posted by Dinah on January 9, 2003, at 9:10:26
In reply to Dinah, some politely worded advice... » Dinah, posted by kid a on January 9, 2003, at 9:02:17
> I believe, truly, in the Nietzschen concept of dynamism, in that great progress can be made because of conflict.
I believe you believe that. It has been evident since your return.
> Conflict is a part of life, no one is name calling or being imature here, you should hang around my bad internet neighborhoods, then you'd really see the bullets fly.
Fortunately, Dr. Bob has tried to establish a different sort of neighborhood here.
> Without conflict, It's doubtfull that any of us would even be here...
Without unneccessary conflict, I doubt I would be here. I would have never stumbled across a mental health site.
>
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 9, 2003, at 9:21:12
In reply to Re: I've never known Touche to mean intelligent; cleve » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2003, at 8:17:49
Yeah.. thats kind of what I meant.. touche can mean to score a hit (in fencing), and I guess I understand it the same way, but over here it tends to be used toward someone who is being bitchy..
like, if you said "My, you look fat", I could reply touche.. cos, maybe what they said was true, but it doesn't HAVE to be said, unless you're being bitchy.. does that make sense?? I;m not always good at explaining myself.Um.. how better to explain it.. Its used when someone is scoring a hit against another.. in a verbal way.. which, in my opinion, is what bitches do!!
Nikki
Posted by Kar on January 9, 2003, at 9:33:12
In reply to Re: I'm not in this, but *touche*??!! » Kar, posted by Alii on January 9, 2003, at 3:02:22
Alli- yes i did find that your usage of touche implied derision. I'm quite familiar with the term and definitions, so thanks anyway. i think your usage of it was rather appropriate, especially condering the fencing metaphor. Dueling, you know.
>but I think this discussion has run its course.
It seems as if you truly meant this, you wouldn't have started another thread. I agree with you- there is a tendency towards misinterpretation of intents when we are unable to benifit from the subtle, nonverbal, pragmatics or others.This just seems like a quest to "win" and I don't mean to sound trite, but we're here to support one another. It has come up many times here and it is a immature. If we do not seem to be eye to eye with another poster then the most logical and peaceful solution would be to ignore his/her posts.
Posted by Kar on January 9, 2003, at 9:43:17
In reply to Dinah, some politely worded advice... » Dinah, posted by kid a on January 9, 2003, at 9:02:17
Kid A- you wrote this:
> I think you should try to grow a thicker skin if you're going to be the one to break up fights.And then this...
>no one is name calling or being imature here, .??? hmmm...
Posted by Dinah on January 9, 2003, at 10:14:39
In reply to Re: I've never known Touche to mean intelligent; cleve » Dinah, posted by NikkiT2 on January 9, 2003, at 9:21:12
Hmmm. I've been trying to figure out what I mean here. I think what I mean is intent. A person who scores a hit for the sole intention of scoring a hit might be bitchy. But a person can score a hit when their intent is far more benign.
I remember once here on the board, I was saying that I couldn't change, that this was the way I was and I knew I would do things this way. And someone posted a reply to the effect of "And how is that working out for you?". Ouch. A hit. But no ill intent. In fact, I appreciated it.
Am I making any sense at all?
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 9, 2003, at 10:25:40
In reply to Re: I've never known Touche to mean intelligent; cleve » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2003, at 10:14:39
"But a person can score a hit when their intent is far more benign."
They can, but to me, when the phrase touche is used, its intent is then bitchy.
I remember the "hows it working out for you" comment, and I saw it as humour, nothing more.. so I woulnd;t have thought of the phrase touche to be used in that instance..
I can see touche being used in a humurous context, in the same way I ahve used the phrase "ooh you bitch" in a humorous, mickey taking way. But that would be between friends who understood each others intent, not in this sort of context.
Nikki x
Posted by Dinah on January 9, 2003, at 10:30:57
In reply to Re: I've never known Touche to mean intelligent; cleve » Dinah, posted by NikkiT2 on January 9, 2003, at 10:25:40
And I guess this is where perhaps regional or local culture differences take hold? I think I thought "touche'" at that moment, and meant it seriously and with admiration. In fact I think I generally say "touche'" seriously and with admiration. If I wanted to say "bitch" I'd probably say it. :)
So if I forget this conversation, and ever say "touche'" to you, please check with me before you think I'm trying to be insulting.
Posted by Dinah on January 9, 2003, at 10:37:57
In reply to Re: I've never known Touche to mean intelligent; cleve » Dinah, posted by NikkiT2 on January 9, 2003, at 10:25:40
> I remember the "hows it working out for you" comment, and I saw it as humour, nothing more..
I saw that comment as far more than humour. I saw it as much needed wisdom and perspective.
Just a "thank you" interjection. :)
Dinah
Posted by Kar on January 9, 2003, at 10:47:21
In reply to Re: I've never known Touche to mean intelligent; cleve » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2003, at 10:30:57
I think we should stop arguing and analyzing a (crypic) comment.
We have more pressing matters...such as carb addiction!
Posted by NikkiT2 on January 9, 2003, at 10:51:05
In reply to Re: Oh, and in honor of whoever said it..., posted by Dinah on January 9, 2003, at 10:37:57
Theres Touche Turtle!! *lol*
And Dinah.. I doubt you could ever truly offend me, as you;re one of the most genuine people I know..
"Touche awaaay"
Nikki
(http://www.engletec.demon.co.uk/cartoonlegends/touche.htm incase you've missed the wonders of Touche Turtle!!)
Posted by kid a on January 9, 2003, at 11:10:23
In reply to Oh, and then...., posted by NikkiT2 on January 9, 2003, at 10:51:05
Posted by kid a on January 9, 2003, at 11:39:34
In reply to Re: Kid A, a politely worded reply...., posted by Dinah on January 9, 2003, at 9:10:26
> > I believe, truly, in the Nietzschen concept of dynamism, in that great progress can be made because of conflict.
>
> I believe you believe that. It has been evident since your return.Since my return? I didn't know I created such a bustle in the hedgerow... ripple in the space time contium whathaveyou, I am become death, shatterer of worlds... (look that last one up if you dont know it, it's from a religious text)...
Also, have you read any Nietzsche?
> Fortunately, Dr. Bob has tried to establish a different sort of neighborhood here.
A neighborhood devoid of any yang, any darkness, even though darkness permeates most of our lives... We're encouraged to quelle our bad feelings and push them deep down inside us, where no one will ever see them... Many of us fight a lifetime's worth of feeling persecuted and attacked, we're trying our best to become strong and to stick up for ourselves, while at the same time we are given our shots of Thorazine and sent quietly off to spend time alone in our rooms.
> Without unneccessary conflict, I doubt I would be here. I would have never stumbled across a mental health site.
The conflict in my life has led to meeting many wonderful people, at least one of those is gone now... a conflict within itself, but I am so glad to have met that person that I would gladly bloodpin the badge of friendship over my heart, endlessly talking like the trees in the inferno.
Finally, even my best friends and I have rows, I got in a little spat w/ a special one recently, words were said, anger was experessed, but in the end we e-kissed and made up... Conflict is all around us, when we begin to accept it and deal with it head on, we win, when we sublimate it and pretend it doesn't exist, we are only fooling ourselves.
all of my best wishes to you.
Posted by Dinah on January 9, 2003, at 12:47:21
In reply to Re: Kid A, a politely worded reply.... » Dinah, posted by kid a on January 9, 2003, at 11:39:34
> > > I believe, truly, in the Nietzschen concept of dynamism, in that great progress can be made because of conflict.
> >
> > I believe you believe that. It has been evident since your return.
>
> Since my return? I didn't know I created such a bustle in the hedgerow... ripple in the space time contium whathaveyou, I am become death, shatterer of worlds...Wow. You got all that from my two sentences? Death? Shatterer of worlds? So much room for misunderstanding. I am not nearly so dramatic you know. I did perhaps let my distress about Beardy no longer feeling safe here filter through. And my vague suspicion that something off board was brought on board. And I was irritated at what I believe you admitted was a provocative comment about the US that I'm quite certain you meant to be thought provoking. And I'm sorry if my frustration affected my post to you. I didn't think you would take offense at my validating that you were living your principles, as just elucidated.
> (look that last one up if you dont know it, it's from a religious text)...
>
> Also, have you read any Nietzsche?No, can't say I have. Learned about him in college of course. Didn't feel the need from what I learned to investigate further. Glad he offers something to you, though.
And you see the possibility for misunderstanding? Those two sentences of yours could have made me a bit defensive if I were insecure in my intellectual knowledge.
>
> > Fortunately, Dr. Bob has tried to establish a different sort of neighborhood here.
>
> A neighborhood devoid of any yang, any darkness, even though darkness permeates most of our lives... We're encouraged to quelle our bad feelings and push them deep down inside us, where no one will ever see them... Many of us fight a lifetime's worth of feeling persecuted and attacked, we're trying our best to become strong and to stick up for ourselves, while at the same time we are given our shots of Thorazine and sent quietly off to spend time alone in our rooms.
>
Well, I agree that we have different views on Dr. Bob's neighborhood. Perhaps because darkness doesn't permeate my life. I would say I'm sorry it permeates yours, but I'm not sure what reaction that might bring. I know that artists have a different view of darkness, and I am not the teensiest bit artistic. So I will merely end with the wish that I hope you find what you are looking for.
Posted by M. Lee on January 9, 2003, at 13:18:36
In reply to Re: Kid A, a politely worded reply.... » Dinah, posted by kid a on January 9, 2003, at 11:39:34
> > Fortunately, Dr. Bob has tried to establish a different sort of neighborhood here.
>
> A neighborhood devoid of any yang, any darkness, even though darkness permeates most of our lives... We're encouraged to quelle our bad feelings and push them deep down inside us, where no one will ever see them... Many of us fight a lifetime's worth of feeling persecuted and attacked, we're trying our best to become strong and to stick up for ourselves, while at the same time we are given our shots of Thorazine and sent quietly off to spend time alone in our rooms.
>That really struck a chord within me. Sort of a resonance... to something I've been through recently... but that's a story that's not yet completely resolved, nor am I ready to tell it. But, thank you for a thought provoking and eloquent quote.
Posted by M. Lee on January 9, 2003, at 13:20:40
In reply to Re: Kid A, a politely worded reply.... » Dinah, posted by kid a on January 9, 2003, at 11:39:34
> > Fortunately, Dr. Bob has tried to establish a different sort of neighborhood here.
>
> A neighborhood devoid of any yang, any darkness, even though darkness permeates most of our lives... We're encouraged to quelle our bad feelings and push them deep down inside us, where no one will ever see them... Many of us fight a lifetime's worth of feeling persecuted and attacked, we're trying our best to become strong and to stick up for ourselves, while at the same time we are given our shots of Thorazine and sent quietly off to spend time alone in our rooms.
>This reminds me of a similar situation that I had to deal with a few years back.
I help moderate discussion groups on another site. Arguments got so out of hand at one point in the "general discussion" board that we ended up creating a separate board. It was called "arena" and there was a warning message to the effect that it was unmoderated and just about anything goes. (there were limits)
(I'm not suggesting that it would work here. It was actually a very different situation. I didn't even see what started this thread. I'm just remembering, and thinking out loud...)
This solution ended up being a workable compromise between free speech (sometimes to the point of "brutal" honesty) versus providing an environment where others could choose to stay out of it. Messages were moved from the moderated area to the unmoderated board, and then allowed to take whatever direction the participants choose. Yeah, at first, the discussions got really nasty, but after a while it calmed down, and actually helped diffuse some conflicts. Messages there would also expire after a certain set amount of time, and not linger on as a reminder long after impulsive things were said and resolved.
In this case it seemed that we had been unintentionally quelling the resolution of disagreements between people. And the feeling stirred up will often come to the surface (one way, or another) despite our attempts to prevent it. For instance, participants realized that they could say things in private email that were not allowed by the moderators, and those exchanges got _way_ out of control.
Sometimes the new message board was empty for long stretches of time, but we kept it as sort of a "safety valve" - to relieve the pressure that sometimes builds.
Posted by IsoM on January 9, 2003, at 14:00:59
In reply to Re: Kid A, a politely worded reply.... » kid a, posted by Dinah on January 9, 2003, at 12:47:21
While I've read other's understanding of the meaning of touché to have negative connotations as in scoring a hit (which the dictionary does list as a meaning), I'd like to offer what I automatically think when I hear the word touché.
If two people were fencing with intent to hurt or killeach other, no one would say touché when they scored a hit. Touché is only used with friendly dueling matches that test skill or for sheer enjoyment of the art of fencing.
Because of that, I've always associated it with a friendly game. It's also used after one scores with a witticism. Now perhaps because I only banter with real friends, I again take the term touché to have a friendly connotation. Wit isn't meant to be mean - if it is, then it's sarcasm, not wit. Wit has the meaning of intelligent *humour* often with word play - entirely different to me from sarcastic comments that are rarely intellligent & never honestly humorous.
Does this make sense to any one else? I've only said "touché" to friends, & only friends have said it back to me. After one of us says it, generally the rest crack up in laughter. It's meant as a light hearted fun thing, not to hurt but to cheer up or make one laugh.
What sort of company are "friends" who are sarcastic to each other? If your friends say such comments to you, I'd suggest finding more compatible & loving friends. I wouldn't tolerate it from someone who's supposed to be my friend & would gently tell them so.
Posted by gabbix2 on January 9, 2003, at 14:01:57
In reply to Re: Kid A, a politely worded reply...., posted by M. Lee on January 9, 2003, at 13:20:40
"Grow a thicker skin?"
That sounds derisive to me,even if it wasn't meant that way, it seems contradictory to the following point.
If one had a skin so thick they didn't feel and therefore acknowledge sadness or discomfort
there would be no conflict to grow from.
You have to feel to know what conflict is.
Posted by gabbix2 on January 9, 2003, at 14:26:34
In reply to for everyone - (NOT choosing sides)..., posted by IsoM on January 9, 2003, at 14:00:59
A little after the fact, however..
I've never heard "touche" used to mean just bitchy,
or cruel. I think the reason it was adopted to english is because we don't have another word for it.
I've only seen it used as a wry acknowledgment.
As when someone uses your own argument against you in a debate, to grudgingly, or somewhat admiringly acknowledge the point they've made you'd say "Touche"
Posted by IsoM on January 9, 2003, at 16:37:59
In reply to Re: for everyone , posted by gabbix2 on January 9, 2003, at 14:26:34
Gabbi, I *always* acknowledge great wit with admiration. Apparently, I'm told I'm very funny, & witty too, but I never am when I try. It's just an inate ability of mine to say hilarious things without ever meaning to. When I do try, I'm so pathetic that it's also very funny but never witty. Therefore, I'm in awe of those who can easily come up with the wittiest remarks with little effort. Two of my sons are that sort of persons, so perhaps that's why it's very natural for me to think of touché as said in delight & appreciation for what the other said.
The different intentions of touché, felt by each person, may be tied in (to some extent) with how they feel about themself. Even when I'm low, my self-esteem is good so I almost never take someone's comments to be unkind. I tend to view most individuals rather magnanimously, even if I'm a little cynical about people in general. If someone wants to toss be a barb, they better make it pretty obvious. I wish my comments to be viewed in a forgiving light & so grant that honour to others most times too.
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