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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Janelle on April 5, 2002, at 20:15:00
Who is he, what does he have to do with that post further above where you said (to Lou about me) "she's not Stanley Milgram" ???!!!! I'm curious as to what was meant by that! Thanks! :-)
Posted by Lou Pilder on April 5, 2002, at 20:26:38
In reply to BEARDY: Just WHO is STANLEY MILGRAM?, posted by Janelle on April 5, 2002, at 20:15:00
Janelle;
Stanley Milgram was a psychologist that studied the Nazis that commited the killing of jews and others and tried to find out why they participated in the holocost. He also did experiments with electric shocks on people that gave wrong answers.
Lou
Posted by Janelle on April 5, 2002, at 20:35:25
In reply to Re: BEARDY: Just WHO is STANLEY MILGRAM? » Janelle, posted by Lou Pilder on April 5, 2002, at 20:26:38
Posted by Shar on April 6, 2002, at 0:59:26
In reply to BEARDY: Just WHO is STANLEY MILGRAM?, posted by Janelle on April 5, 2002, at 20:15:00
Milgram did experiments related to power, roles, and authority. One of his more notable experiments was set up so that a Subject was sitting before some controls and dials, and the Subject was to "shock" the Person who answered a question wrong. The Person was not in the room with the Subject, but the Subject could hear the Person answer the questions.
No shocks were ever actually administered. The Person answering was part of the experiment.
What Milgram found out was that people would respond to the Experimenter (person in charge) who told them to increase the level of intensity on the shocks, so much so that the Person supposedly getting shocked was screaming in pain. The "suggestibility" factor, or power of being in a role of authority was shown clearly when most Subjects went well beyond their comfort level in giving intense shocks just because the Experimenter told them to. The Experimenter, as I recall, did not get tough or threaten the people to give stronger shocks; they just said stuff like 'increase it to this level' or 'go ahead and increase it next time.'
The Subject always had the option of not increasing the level of the shock, they could walk out at any time, or stop, and some did. Some just refused to give higher shocks, or got very concerned and asked the Experimenter if the Person answering was ok, nobody was forced to continue against their will--which is what made it interesting.
I believe that in some instances the Person who had been getting "shocked" and screaming became quiet, implying he had passed out or possibly even died. (Or maybe I just made that part up.)
So, Milgram got a lot of shit about his experiment because some of the Subjects were traumatized or something, and he got a reputation for being bad...even though for the time, what he did was within the rules. He did this as a Prof. at a University, not in his basement dungeon.
I agree with Beardy's assessment of you. Actually, I LOL'd when I read her subject line.
Milgram did some other interesting stuff, on authority. Some people are amazingly responsive to someone in authority without good reason; simply because one IS in authority. It's a little scary...to wit what happened under Hitler's regime early on, as it related to following those in 'authority.'
Shar
Posted by Ritch on April 6, 2002, at 9:14:23
In reply to Just WHO is STANLEY MILGRAM? » Janelle, posted by Shar on April 6, 2002, at 0:59:26
.....Milgram did some other interesting stuff, on authority. Some people are amazingly responsive to someone in authority without good reason; simply because one IS in authority. It's a little scary...to wit what happened under Hitler's regime early on, as it related to following those in 'authority.'
>
> Shar
Yes, it is scary. There was something else about those experiments that was very interesting and I can't remember what it was. It had something to do with an analysis of the people that were told to give the shocks. People with certain types of occupations tended to follow the orders blindly, whereas others would question them or stopped much sooner. I wish I could remember that information.Mitch
Posted by jane d on April 6, 2002, at 11:08:35
In reply to Re: Just WHO is STANLEY MILGRAM? » Shar, posted by Ritch on April 6, 2002, at 9:14:23
> Yes, it is scary. There was something else about those experiments that was very interesting and I can't remember what it was. It had something to do with an analysis of the people that were told to give the shocks. People with certain types of occupations tended to follow the orders blindly, whereas others would question them or stopped much sooner. I wish I could remember that information.
>
> MitchMitch,
Even if you could remember it might not be relevant today. Just knowing about the original experiments might be enough to make people respond differently today. The results have influenced the way several generations raised their children to think about authority.
Jane
Posted by Ritch on April 6, 2002, at 13:53:31
In reply to Milgram and what kind of people pressed the button, posted by jane d on April 6, 2002, at 11:08:35
> > Yes, it is scary. There was something else about those experiments that was very interesting and I can't remember what it was. It had something to do with an analysis of the people that were told to give the shocks. People with certain types of occupations tended to follow the orders blindly, whereas others would question them or stopped much sooner. I wish I could remember that information.
> >
> > Mitch
>
> Mitch,
> Even if you could remember it might not be relevant today. Just knowing about the original experiments might be enough to make people respond differently today. The results have influenced the way several generations raised their children to think about authority.
> JaneHi Jane,
That is a good point. I believe from reading my high school psychology book they mentioned that participants who had "people" jobs tended not to continue administering the shocks. I think they mentioned teachers and lawyers. Hmmm. I wonder if lawyers would be all that compassionate nowadays. It would be interesting to see if they could repeat the same experiment in a different way and see what the socio-cultural changes have ocurred since (in a historical context).
Mitch
Posted by beardedlady on April 6, 2002, at 14:59:34
In reply to Re: Milgram and what kind of people pressed the button » jane d, posted by Ritch on April 6, 2002, at 13:53:31
I thought I'd be one of those people who wouldn't have pressed the button--you know, a questioner of authority. (I was asked to leave my Sunday school at 12 because I kept asking why, if there really was a God, he allowed the holocaust.) But when this experiment was conducted, 60-65% of the people pushed the button all the way to 450 volts. And not a single person stopped before 300 volts!
There are a couple of good sites for his work. This one has the set-up of the experiment: http://www.new-life.net/milgram.htm.
I once read that many of these people suffered from emotional problems after this survey, but I don't know where I read it.
Milgram had some interesting experiments, but this is one of history's most unethical scientific studies. Of course, he had other motives.
We always say that it can't happen today, now that we know about it. But we know about the holocaust, and holocausts happen anyway.
beardy : />
Posted by Mark H. on April 6, 2002, at 16:50:13
In reply to What kind of people pressed the button?, posted by beardedlady on April 6, 2002, at 14:59:34
Beardy,
Since I greatly respect your opinion, and the "learners" in the Milgram study were actors who were only pretending to be shocked, why do you believe his study to be "one of history's most unethical studies"?
I would reserve that description for the "studies" that were conducted by physicians in Nazi Germany, using human beings as test subjects that few people today would tolerate being performed on lab animals.
I understood Milgram to be demonstrating convincingly that the certainty of the American public that such atrocities could "never happen here" were pompously naive. I used to show the film to classes in public administration as part of instilling ethics in future public servants.
I'm sure I'm missing an important consideration, and I trust you'll help me to better understand your point of view.
Many thanks,
Mark H.
Posted by Mark H. on April 6, 2002, at 16:58:42
In reply to Re: Normal, Healthy College Students, posted by Mark H. on April 6, 2002, at 16:50:13
Dear Beardy,
Alas, I should have visited your link before relying on my memory from almost 25 years ago.
Is there a way the test could have been devised that you would now consider ethical?
Sorry for my haste!
Mark H.
Posted by Ritch on April 6, 2002, at 17:15:09
In reply to What kind of people pressed the button?, posted by beardedlady on April 6, 2002, at 14:59:34
BdL,
I read all of Solzhenitsyn's prison camp stuff.."First Circle", "One Day..", all three volumes of "The Gulag Archipelago" back in the early 80's. I think there was a scene in Gulag where two women (a warder and her charge) were walking down a corridor in some jail in Leningrad while the Germans were shelling the city. A shell landed close by startling the warder who grabbed the prisoner in a bear hug momentarily. Then, when the concussion subsided-they promptly went back to their "roles". *Work* is hell.
Mitch
Posted by beardedlady on April 6, 2002, at 19:25:14
In reply to Re: I Spoke Too Soon, posted by Mark H. on April 6, 2002, at 16:58:42
He was mainly justifying the action of the Nazis--they were just following orders.
beardy
Posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2002, at 6:10:22
In reply to Re: Normal, Healthy College Students, posted by Mark H. on April 6, 2002, at 16:50:13
By the way, Mark H, what a lovely post! It should be used as Dr. Bob's model for disagreement. (I mean that in a nice way; I'm not being sarcastic.) Anyway, lovely.
As for unethical studies, I was speaking, really, about scientific studies, not cruel and inhumane practices disguised as studies. And I don't know why I said Milgram's obedience tests were unethical; I suppose that's the wrong word. But when I studied this experiment (long ago, another life?), I remember a teacher calling it unethical because of a few different factors, and it caused many of the participants to need debriefing.
Anyway, that's it for me. I'm toast. (I mean I'm having toast. For breakfast.)
beardy : )>
Posted by Mark H. on April 7, 2002, at 16:34:01
In reply to Re: Normal, Healthy College Students » Mark H., posted by beardedlady on April 7, 2002, at 6:10:22
Dear Beardy,
Thank you for the additional information and insight, and for not clobbering me! I now can see how the study could be seen from many different points of view, and the results misused.
In my work and in interactions with people generally on sensitive topics, I sometimes feel like a voice in the wilderness crying out for more education and focus on process and less on pure "content." Trouble's writings speak deeply to me in this regard.
As a recent example, shortly after the tragic events of September 11, one poll showed that almost a third of Americans believed people in the United States of Arabic descent should be rounded up and placed in detainment camps. Yet it was only in the most recent years that our nation finally had accepted and acknowledged that the displacement and detainment of Japanese-Americans during World War II was wrong.
If we have to take it one "event" at a time, without respect for the underlying process, there isn't much hope for us. And we can't just blame the current administration or a single political party. More damage was done to constitutional freedoms during the Clinton years than during any other period in my life.
This is a failing of education, in my opinion. Kids are taught "political fashion" instead of underlying principles. Their speech is censored instead of being given the tools to argue for everyone's right to the basics of health, safety and dignity.
My blind spot with the Milgram study was that the value of the message that "we" are no different than "Germans" or anyone else, subject to the same failings and manipulation by authority, outweighed the harm done to the participants. Ironically, it's the same point I'm pressing: I missed the harm done in the process by focusing only on what I thought was valuable content.
Perhaps we are always teaching what we most need to learn.
Again, my thanks.
Mark H.
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