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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by LiLi80 on April 4, 2002, at 9:08:45
Posted by Penny on April 4, 2002, at 9:33:27
In reply to i just feel lost and alone (nm), posted by LiLi80 on April 4, 2002, at 9:08:45
Lili,
I feel lost and alone too. Esp. right now. And I know what you mean about hospitals...one of my friends really thinks I need to take some time and that they could help me. But they can't change my brain. They can't change my circumstances. And things would only likely get worse if I were in a hospital. Plus, I'm "functioning" as well. I go to work. I go to class, etc. etc. etc. Doesn't mean I don't think about suicide. Doesn't mean I'm not heading back downhill.
I like seeing your posts. You certainly tell it like it is. I wish I could find the answer to this hell for both of us. I can't...
The offer still stands: penny1076@yahoo.com if you need me. I check my email frequently.
Penny
Posted by tinaboo on April 4, 2002, at 9:43:06
In reply to Re: i just feel lost and alone - me too. » LiLi80, posted by Penny on April 4, 2002, at 9:33:27
My meds work just fine but I still feel very alone. I can be in a room full of people, family or friends, and feel totally alone and lost.
The nature of my life I suppose. I think it's just meant to be this way for me.
Well, since the three of us feel alone, maybe we aren't?
tina
Posted by LiLi80 on April 4, 2002, at 9:47:13
In reply to Re: i just feel lost and alone - me too., posted by tinaboo on April 4, 2002, at 9:43:06
i just keep think i am a horrible person. my bf dumps me, because i was too angry, tho i never thought i was until he mentioned it, and no one esle thinks i am. and then my friends drop me like i am nothing. i am being isolated and i cant shake the feeling that its just cause i am a horrible human being. god i must really be like the devil or something for this to happen to me.
lili
Posted by Penny on April 4, 2002, at 10:02:29
In reply to i am a horrible person/ i am the devil, posted by LiLi80 on April 4, 2002, at 9:47:13
> i am being isolated and i cant shake the feeling that its just cause i am a horrible human being. god i must really be like the devil or something for this to happen to me.
Yeah, I know what you mean. I tend to scare off anyone anymore who tries to get close to me, and I turn it all inward. Must be me. Even when others tell me it's not, it must be!!! How else can you explain it?
My therapist tells me to think of it as though I was talking to someone else. And in this case, I am. I'm talking to you. So what I can say to you (and, theoretically, what I should say to myself when I feel the same way you do) is: it's not you. You're not a horrible person. How others react to you is not a reflection of who you are on the inside. Look at how many people on this board care about you! Do you think they would care at all, if you were truly a horrible person? I don't. Really.
Of course, I can't convince you of any of that. Any more than you could convince me. I told my therapist once that the only time my logical side was illogical was when I was looking at myself from my own perspective. It's hard to be objective when looking at yourself anyway, but even harder when you are in the midst of a depression. Your thoughts are totally distorted.
As for your 'friends', I have those too. People who 'care' as long as I'm doing well, but bail when the going gets tough. And I wish I could say that you'll find new friends, but I don't know that for sure. It's hard, esp. when you're not doing well. I do know that you don't need the 'friends' who treat you like shit. They're not worth your time or energy.
Try to remember, Lili, that is this not WHO you are. These feelings, these thoughts...they are ultra-convincing, but they are NOT who you are. They are a symptom of the disease.
Penny
Posted by tinaboo on April 4, 2002, at 10:17:47
In reply to Re: i am a horrible person/ i am the devil » LiLi80, posted by Penny on April 4, 2002, at 10:02:29
Obviously if these "friends" take off when things get tough, they are NOT really your friends.
I don't know you but you don't sound like an evil person to me. You sound like you're in pain and feeling lost. that's not a crime. Allow yourself to feel this way without feeling that you are horrible. You aren't. It's the depression, the illness. Like Penny said, perception becomes distorted and in your frustration with your illness, you turn anger toward yourself and beat yourself up for having the illness. It's a vicious cycle and you must stop the negative voice inside to stop the cycle.
You are NOT horrible. From what I've read from you, you are a caring, sensitive, smart person who has an illness. The illness is not who you are.
take care
tina
Posted by ELA on April 4, 2002, at 12:10:53
In reply to i am a horrible person/ i am the devil, posted by LiLi80 on April 4, 2002, at 9:47:13
Lili,
Your posts recently have sounded so down, I really hope that you find someone soon who you can fully trust to help you through this.
My "friends" have done pretty much the same things to me as yours and it makes us feel like shit. But really, they're more fucked up than we will ever be.
I also feel lost and alone at the moment and i don't know how to stop it. My physical problems seem to be sorting themselves out so everyone around me expects me to "snap out of it" and "go back to normal again". What the fuck is normal with an illness like this?!
I don't really have anything useful to say to you other than I can imagine exactly how you feel and just hang in there. We're not horrible people, we just need a bit of understanding, something I'm sure all those who think they're "normal" probably want as well. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and know what you're talking about. Good luck.
Emma.
Posted by IsoM on April 4, 2002, at 12:55:35
In reply to i just feel lost and alone (nm), posted by LiLi80 on April 4, 2002, at 9:08:45
Lili, there's many wonderful people in this world who are perceived by others as awful people. I'm going to ramble a bit but please bear with me. There's solid logic & understanding behind this.
Just like wild Nature ouside humans' realm, people can be broken down into prey & predator groups. It's not clear-cut because just like Nature, some smaller predators can be a larger predator's meal.
The "predator" class of people are those who unconsciously (for the most part) look for others that can be used. Many don't even realise they do this but they seek out friends & relationships with people who can boost their egos. They'll take whatever - emotional, material, social status, etc, from their friends, the 'prey', as they need to.
Others without being aware of it are "prey". They give off unspoken messages that are quickly picked up by the "predators" that shows they can be leached off of. The prey can be truly wonderful people in many ways, but they tend to be emotionally needy & will put up with so much mental/physical/social/emotional drainage (abuse even) from others just to feel needed & to feel like they belong. My poor Mom is wonderful but she's "prey". I feel it's my duty to encourage her as much as possible to stand up for herself. She never got a chance while she was growing up or married.
But the poor "prey" becomes drained & feels it. They'll start hating the people who wear them down at the same time they continue to give to these same ones. The become desperate & don't understand what's going on, feeling (like you) that they must be horrible people because when they protest or finally try to stand for their rights, their "predatory" friends turn on them.
The people who are strongly predator never seek out emotionally strong/self-confident people to befriend. They won't get anything from those relationships. If they attempt to take, the strong "non-prey" will expect something back in the way of support, love, comittment, etc. I liken thses strong ones to "elephants". They form bonds among other strong people & aren't targeted by the "predators". But unless someone brings their attention to the "prey", they don't notice them either. I believe the great humanitarians are those "elephants" who've been woken up to the plight of others, or have lived among "prey" & seen first-hand their sufferings.
You, dear Lili are probably viewed as "prey" by your former "predator" friends & acquaintances. You're not a horrible person AT ALL! The "predators" are just angry for their "prey" is turning around & fighting back. Even rabbits will fight, claw & bite when backed into a corner. Your 'friends' don't like seeing your teeth - you're not an easy target anymore.
There's many fine people who would be great friends - you now need to know how to recognise them but in the situration that you're in, you're too fragile to go the extra mile. If you read Robin's Suicide Notes, you'll understand. Later, you'll be able to find friends that will last a life-time. I can promise you that.
Posted by Zo on April 4, 2002, at 16:51:19
In reply to Feeling lost and alone (a little long) » LiLi80, posted by IsoM on April 4, 2002, at 12:55:35
IsoM, great post, inspired a few thoughts.
Sometimes people are so busy trusting, making art, listening to the muse, singing, mothering, nurturing, being a friend. . and a hundred other things. . .that they are not On The Alert for predators. Meanwhile, the predator is thinking, Wow, what easy prey! But that's how predators think. (What a wretched existence *that* must be.)
Lots of times we take in the view of ourselves that the predators defines. They seem to have so much power, to be so certain about things.
In the interest of reducing the suffering we can, while we search for the right meds, redefining who you are according to your *own* caring values is a great way to pass the time.
So much of the agony is about what has been thrust on us--which of course feels awful! PB is a wonderful, safe place for showing who you really are.
Come to find out, the only people who are upset about this--when a patient starts thinking for herself and her pdoc goes apeshit, when friends disappear because you stop playing the "I'm Doing Great!" game--are the ones who aren't capable of caring about the welfare of others.. ..only their own.
I dunno, it's been kinda freeing for me to realize this.
Zo
Posted by JohnX2 on April 4, 2002, at 18:45:04
In reply to Prey are the best people!, posted by Zo on April 4, 2002, at 16:51:19
> IsoM, great post, inspired a few thoughts.
>
> Sometimes people are so busy trusting, making art, listening to the muse, singing, mothering, nurturing, being a friend. . and a hundred other things. . .that they are not On The Alert for predators. Meanwhile, the predator is thinking, Wow, what easy prey! But that's how predators think. (What a wretched existence *that* must be.)
>It is equally sad that the "predator" lives a wretched existance. What events do you think occurs in this person's life to lead up to this? How does one forgive such a person? *Does* one forgive such a person? Is there hope for the "predator" ?
These are very insightful and enlightening posts.
My Best,
John
Posted by Zo on April 4, 2002, at 20:05:52
In reply to Re: Prey are the best people!, posted by JohnX2 on April 4, 2002, at 18:45:04
1. More and more I tend think sociopathy is most often something a person is born with, or should I say, without. Without human empathy, remorse, the moral capacity. Clearly, a brutal childhood can make for a brutal adult--but look how often it doesn't!
I think it's a brain glitch. (That's the scientific term.)
2. As an inner process only. Why? Because in most cases, the perpetrator? There ain't nobody home. . . and even if there were, he sure as hell wouldn't feel the need to be forgiven!
3. Not in the manner in which one forgives another actual person--in whom, no matter how deluded or out to lunch, still, there is the capacity to *hear* it.
(Maybe you've had to have had a sociopath in your life, to really understand this, it's hard for normal, feeling people to "get.")
4. The evidence seems to be coming down on the hopeless side. What would hope and change consist of, in a person without conscience? Why would they think there's any reason to change? I think they do notice some difference in the rest of us--besides that we are easy prey, we do seem to be having some sort of fun--and that they are excellent imitators of normal. . .unless you look closely, which no one but their chewed-up, spat-out prey has any motivation to do. Which helps predators continue to operate undeterred; who the hell takes seriously the ravings of chewed-up prey.
It *is* sad, their existence. But not equally sad. This inequality of course being the immense moral distinction between predator and prey.
Zo
Posted by JohnX2 on April 4, 2002, at 21:39:32
In reply to Re: Prey are the best people! » JohnX2, posted by Zo on April 4, 2002, at 20:05:52
> 1. More and more I tend think sociopathy is most often something a person is born with, or should I say, without. Without human empathy, remorse, the moral capacity. Clearly, a brutal childhood can make for a brutal adult--but look how often it doesn't!
>
> I think it's a brain glitch. (That's the scientific term.)
>I'm going to agree that it is biological. But I believe the goof-up in the wiring occurs as a result of some repeated traumatic event. The person develops a "jungle warefare" mindset in order to cope with an unreasonable amount of stress. This I belive may require short cirtuiting "tender feelings" to protect the individual from being overwhelmed by what is happening to them. This doesn't imply that anyone who is tramautized will develop sociopathic traits however, but people with PTSD (the core symptom) in general will most always complain of a "loss of affect". I believe that these people can function as upstanding , caring people, despite this loss of affect. This would require leaning on psychological q's and less on emotional q's. Almost a "robotic" or "cyborg" type of exist. Quite sad.
> 2. As an inner process only. Why? Because in most cases, the perpetrator? There ain't nobody home. . . and even if there were, he sure as hell wouldn't feel the need to be forgiven!
>My observation is that the perpetrator depends on the prey for their existance. Without the prey, the meaning of the perpetrator's existance is void. Should the prey gather the intellegence to stop being victimized, the perpetrator may feel a compulsion to be forgiven in order to reestablish the relationship.
> 3. Not in the manner in which one forgives another actual person--in whom, no matter how deluded or out to lunch, still, there is the capacity to *hear* it.
>
> (Maybe you've had to have had a sociopath in your life, to really understand this, it's hard for normal, feeling people to "get.")
>I am familiar with this concept. My mother was "prey".
> 4. The evidence seems to be coming down on the hopeless side. What would hope and change consist of, in a person without conscience? Why would they think there's any reason to change? I think they do notice some difference in the rest of us--besides that we are easy prey, we do seem to be having some sort of fun--and that they are excellent imitators of normal. . .unless you look closely, which no one but their chewed-up, spat-out prey has any motivation to do. Which helps predators continue to operate undeterred; who the hell takes seriously the ravings of chewed-up prey.
>It would be a pity if these people, "sociopaths" or what not , and I think others with PTSD may fall into the same category, had their wiring messed up so that they could never experience the joy of tender feelings. Perhaps these people rememeber what this was like before they lost it. This would be motivation for them to reaquire those feelings.
> It *is* sad, their existence. But not equally sad. This inequality of course being the immense moral distinction between predator and prey.
>
> ZoNo argument here. However, I will not throw away the perpetrators. I think it is important to understand them, as ugly as that may sound, in order to break viscous cycles of perpetrator/prey interaction. Maybe if we can cure the perpetrators, then there will be fewer prey.
Just a thought.John
Posted by Zo on April 4, 2002, at 22:34:43
In reply to Re: Prey are the best people! » Zo, posted by JohnX2 on April 4, 2002, at 21:39:32
> I'm going to agree that it is biological. But I believe the goof-up in the wiring occurs as a result of some repeated traumatic event.
Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. There are some instances--many-- in which psychological thinking is not relevant.
>I believe that these people can function as upstanding , caring people, despite this loss of affect.
Some do, some don't. I agree with everything you say--and as you of course know, it is very limited, the way in which it behooves us to empathize with a psychopath, a Ted Bundy. . . with persons whose problems lie well outside the boundaries of pyschology, as it were.
>Should the prey gather the intellegence to stop being victimized, the perpetrator may feel a compulsion to be forgiven in order to reestablish the relationship.Maybe, maybe not. (Is this getting annoying yet?) This has not been the case in my experience--they become even more oppressive, perceiving, in their primitive way, that increased awareness in their prey/victims requires increased force in retaliation, in order to continue to perp. I think this model plays out in political oppression. . like in the Mideast right now. . .their argument of course being an endless round of I'm the Victim/You're the Perp.
> I am familiar with this concept. My mother was "prey".
>
I understand. Sociopathy/psychopathology is just *such* a different beast . . .from all other human problems.> It would be a pity if these people, "sociopaths" or what not , and I think others with PTSD may fall into the same category, had their wiring messed up>
I think we need to distinguish between PTSD, which is having *had* your wiring messed up---and psychopathogy, which is *being* wired-up wrong.
There are lots of kinds of birth defects. Why couldn't this be one of them?
How one feels about such persons is a question without easy answers. Obviously, one doesn't want to match sociopathy with sociopathy. But any understanding, empathy or forgiveness shown, say, a Cary Stayner or a Ted Bundy while they were on the loose, was best done at a BIIIIIIG distance.
> Maybe if we can cure the perpetrators, then there will be fewer prey.
Yessss. This is why I don't like to waffle over the niceties of psycholgy when we need to understand these mutants/abberations, who are a danger to everyone else. And how and where does the forgiveness in one's soul gets expressed? I don't know, John.. .. I can't think of any way but in art, within oneself--and of course the kind of forgiveness that extends to life itself, to lending an increase in kindness to world. As if to balance things, to transform oneself being injured into a gift to others.
Does this make sense?
Zo
Posted by IsoM on April 5, 2002, at 2:08:12
In reply to Re: Prey are the best people!, posted by JohnX2 on April 4, 2002, at 18:45:04
I don't think all predatory people are necessarily bad or that all prey people are all good either. It's something that seems to be learned in childhood as a means of dealing with the world around us. It may be partly genetic too. Predatory people may have had parental examples that they unconsciously learned from. Pretty horrible parents for a child to deal with.
Sometimes, a predatory person can be shown how they act towards their environment & others, & they're surprised & are willing to try changing their built-in reactions. Other times, they don't want to or are so used to dealing with life like this that the effort is too much for them.
I guess that's why I'm an optismist. I think there's hope for everyone, practically. The desire to change has to come from within though.
Posted by IsoM on April 5, 2002, at 2:20:12
In reply to Re: To understand ugly things. . , posted by Zo on April 4, 2002, at 22:34:43
I'm not a sociologist & haven't done any studies but I've read a great deal of the subject & have been interested in it for a while now.
In my original post, I mentioned predators. I wasn't referring to psychopaths. That's a different thing entirely. Like you said, Zo, it seems "hard-wired" into them - like a birth defect. Some have come from loving, caring families even, parents & siblings who weren't anything like that.
It's not just empathy they lack but they also have no understanding of the reward/punishment concept. If you tell someone normal that if they do such-and-such, they'll be punished or rewarded for it, they'll understand what the outcome of their actions will be. With psychopaths, the outcome means nothing. It's like they can't grasp that actions lead to consequences. Researchers have found that even from a very young age, reward/punishment never altered anything they did.
In people like that, sadly, I think there's honestly nothing that can be done, at this point in time, to alter their thinking patterns.
Posted by Zo on April 5, 2002, at 3:55:51
In reply to Psychopaths » Zo, posted by IsoM on April 5, 2002, at 2:20:12
Hey, that's interesting. . .Really suggests there's something not hooked up right in the nervous system, doesn't it?Zo
Posted by IsoM on April 5, 2002, at 12:29:19
In reply to Re: Psychopaths » IsoM, posted by Zo on April 5, 2002, at 3:55:51
This is the end of the thread.
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