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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 18 to 42 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by beardedlady on March 12, 2002, at 18:59:22
In reply to Re: About Andrea......trouble, posted by Gracie2 on March 12, 2002, at 18:46:25
There's nothing upstanding about dear old dad. He knew she was going to do it because she told him and his mother that she'd do it one day. That's why she called him at work after the drownings and said, "I finally did it." Her husband thought having more babies would cure her. He was about to get her pregnant again.
She had been psychotic for a long time and was on and off a variety of meds, so I don't think we can deny her mental illness. What we're looking at, though, is whether that's a good excuse for her heinous crimes.
Look, I think you can be both insane and aware that you are doing something wrong. But the jury found her guilty, so I guess the argument is now moot.
beardy : )>
Posted by Mitchell on March 12, 2002, at 20:05:00
In reply to Re: Andrea knew what she was doing, posted by trouble on March 12, 2002, at 1:37:19
From what I know, a lot of how insanity defenses are applied has to do with jurors rather than with judges. Some jurors would hold a person with an IQ of 60 responsible for a crime, for perhaps cultural or racial reasons. It's hard to dictate what goes on in the mind of a juror. The judge instructs them then apparently hopes peer pressure will cause all 12 to follow the instruction.
My understanding is that Brawner and Ali were improvements of McNaughton because they replaced the idea of appreciating wrongfulness with the idea of appreciating criminality. If that is not the major difference, I am back at square one. If McNaughton is the precedent in Texas (apologies to all Texans) it figures. My impression of the states government is that policies are laced with religious belief. McNaughton relies on a fundamentaly religious assumption that all humans have a innate knowledge of right and wrong. My guess would be that, under that rule, Yates should be acquitted, but a typical Texas jury will convict. I would think Brawner or Ali would also tend to result in conviction, if the state can show any evidence that Yates tried to conceal her acts or otherwise behaved in such a way that reveals an appreciation for how her community would respond to her behavior.
I think "guilty but insane" is used in some states, but not all. It is more a product of legislative initiative than of judicial interpretation,whereas standards for insanity defense rely on judicial interpretations of insantity, i.e. McNaughton. I'll have to check sometime why, if it is true, Brawner or Ali are not recognized in Texas. Mabye they were appelate decisions in a different district.
Posted by Mitchell on March 12, 2002, at 20:16:06
In reply to Re: Andrea knew what she was doing » Mitchell, posted by Zo on March 12, 2002, at 1:38:12
> Knows she/he is doing wrong in that moment?
Yes, Brawner and Ali, as I appreciate them, stipulate an appreciation of the "criminality" of the act *at the time it was committed*. This time thing is a tricky concept though. It does not imply that one is conciously thinking all the while, "this is wrong, this is wrong." Most of our appreciation of the world at any given moment is subconscious. Consider a trip from New York to California. All along the way, each moment, one does not think "I am going to California". One subsumes that thought in the subconcious while concsciously thinking about everything else under the sun. But the direction of the effort is determined by deeply held ideas.
> As has been the case with other mothers who kill their chldren, this person believed she was saving them. Not only is this pyschotic. . but also, it seems to me, far different than the wrongdoing of murdering someone for the thrill of it, for money, for any of the other slimy motives. Does this seem to idealistic?The Durham case established a standard by which psychosis alone was sufficient to net a not-guilty verdict. It said if the acts resulted from insanity, the defendant was not criminally liable. I don't think it lasted long in appeals courts. Some of the mitigating factors, such as psychosis or thrill killing, can influence sentencing decisions in some states. She could be assigned to a mental hospital instead of a prison, even if she is found guilty but is obviously insane. If she knew it was a criminal act, but thought the law was less important than her own understanding of right nad wrong, she should be found guilty, under Brawner or Ali standards, IMO. But it is not about what I think should happen, it is about what is the law in Texas, and how jurors will understand the law as it relates to criminal culpability of mentally impaired defendants.
Posted by bonnie_ann on March 12, 2002, at 20:55:42
In reply to Re: Andrea knew what she was doing, posted by Mitchell on March 12, 2002, at 20:16:06
What do you think?
If I (god forbid) ever were in her shoes, I would be hoping I was going to be executed ASAP.
Posted by bonnie_ann on March 12, 2002, at 21:05:45
In reply to just a question.., posted by judy1 on March 12, 2002, at 1:51:52
Judy,
I personally don't have experience with post partum psychosis.
I was sad also because my son couldn't nurse. He is tounge tied- but I didn't know that at the time.
I'm sorry that you are going through this.
Please be strong and keep in touch with your Dr's.
Bonnie
Posted by Willow on March 12, 2002, at 21:52:14
In reply to Death Penalty?, posted by bonnie_ann on March 12, 2002, at 20:55:42
Posted by Cecilia on March 12, 2002, at 23:05:11
In reply to Death Penalty?, posted by bonnie_ann on March 12, 2002, at 20:55:42
Bonnie Ann, I don`t know what is going on with Willow to make her write such a post, but I agree with you 100% that I would not want to live if I had committed such a crime, and I appreciate your thoughtful posts. Cecilia
Posted by Cecilia on March 12, 2002, at 23:31:23
In reply to just a question.., posted by judy1 on March 12, 2002, at 1:51:52
Judy, I hope you`re feeling better soon. I have no children, never felt grown-up enough or undepressed enough to be a parent, but have a lot of respect for those who do. Cecilia
Posted by Mair on March 13, 2002, at 5:56:48
In reply to To Judy 1, posted by Cecilia on March 12, 2002, at 23:31:23
Posted by ST on March 13, 2002, at 6:09:46
In reply to Re: Andrea knew what she was doing » Mitchell, posted by Zo on March 12, 2002, at 1:38:12
Personally I don't believe in black and white forms of good and evil. If you murder, aren't you sick? What killer wouldn't be insane on some level? I've never understood the insanity plea because I've always assumed people who create heinous acts of crime are mentally ill.
Thoughts?
Sarah
Posted by beardedlady on March 13, 2002, at 7:11:12
In reply to Insanity, posted by ST on March 13, 2002, at 6:09:46
Posted by Gracie2 on March 13, 2002, at 8:35:40
In reply to Insanity, posted by ST on March 13, 2002, at 6:09:46
Since what you and I think have no bearing on the case, we can agree to disagree without getting ugly.
-Gracie
Posted by mair on March 13, 2002, at 13:12:10
In reply to Fuck you (nm) » bonnie_ann, posted by Willow on March 12, 2002, at 21:52:14
Willow
At least take solace in the fact that this didn't happen in your country. If I recall correctly, you're Canadian right? Maybe there being truly insane is grounds for an acknowledgment that your mental capacity is limited.
Mair
Posted by mair on March 13, 2002, at 17:15:20
In reply to Insanity, posted by ST on March 13, 2002, at 6:09:46
Sarah
The insanity defense is predicated on the notion that most crimes require a certain measure of intent, and that some people, for different reasons, may lack the capacity to have that intent. The definition of insanity is not uniform from state to state but the definition usually involves some variation of the elements of whether the person suffers from a mental disease or defect, and whether because of that disease or defect he was unable to either appreciate the criminality of his actions or conform his conduct to the law.
All crimes involve different elements - it's not just a matter of whether someone has discharged the firearm, for instance. Supposedly when someone is found guilty, a jury has made a determination that the prosecutor has proved each element of the crime. The insanity defense, says in essence, that the prosecution can't prove an essential element of the crime - intent, for instance because the defendant didn't have the mental capacity to form the requisite intent.
There's a huge misconception about the insanity defense in this country - that it's overused and that it gets a person "off." To the contrary, insanity defenses, even very good ones, rarely are successful. I think this has something to do with a jury's reaction to the crime, and with a need to find someone responsible. I actually think, although I have nothing to back this up, that insanity defenses were probably more accepted 100 years ago than they are now. I think people used to be much more comfortable with the notion that sometimes really awful things happen and there doesn't have to be a responsible party. I don't think people then felt the need to be in so much control of events and surroundings. Maybe it also has to do with the fact that people had more confidence that someone truly insane would be locked away. I also think that sometimes defendants are prejudiced by the fact that the person who committed the crime is not necessarily the same person jpresented at trial. Andrea Yates may have been hurt by the fact that she got alot of treatment between the murders and the trial. This is all speculation on my part.
It's obviously difficult to second guess the decision of a jury that actually heard the evidence, but from what I read anyway, Andrea Yates sounded to me like a pretty good case for the insanity defense, regardless of how monstrous her acts were. It rankled me that they charged her with capital murder to begin with - it's the popular tact for a prosecutor in a conservative state to take, but not, in my mind, the honorable one. And from my vantage anyway, it seems preposterous that the jury dismissed her defense quite as quickly and easily as they apparently did.
Sorry to sound so pedantic - this is just my very basic and over-simplistic understanding of the insanity defense and my uninformed opinions about why it so rarely works.
Mair
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 13, 2002, at 17:40:08
In reply to Fuck you (nm) » bonnie_ann, posted by Willow on March 12, 2002, at 21:52:14
Willow,
This is an emotional issue for a lot of people, so it's especially important on this thread to be careful to respect the views of others and to be sensitive to their feelings. Even if it's an emotional issue for you, too. Thanks.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posted by sar on March 13, 2002, at 21:30:40
In reply to Insanity, posted by ST on March 13, 2002, at 6:09:46
i believe andrea yates was psychotic.
i believe the pdoc on the defense team who said that andrea was one of the sickest patients she'd worked with among 6000+.
i do believe in the mothering instinct. the religious instict.
oh andrea, andrea!
she thought she was being persecuted!
i have been psychotic, or close to it!--though not to this level! but there are all sorts of intricacies!
ANDREA YATES--LOOK AT HER PICTURE IN THE PAPAER, THE VARIOUS PICTURES! Mother Andrea, Psychotic Stoic Andrea, Crying Andrea.
you think she is evil? take a course in what you cannot study in school. take a course in Insanity.
i do not fault the jurors for anything--afterall, how could they know??? wouldn't any possible jurors be eliminated if they had any documented mental problems?
arrrrgggh!
i wanna cry cry cry
Andrea Yates is not evil. She was, i believe, overtaken by post-partum depression topped upon regular depression, and psychotic.
why not rehabilitation?
Oh, Andrea!
Posted by sar on March 13, 2002, at 21:35:03
In reply to crying texan, posted by sar on March 13, 2002, at 21:30:40
i'll be your spine, your heels, your stem, if you ever find that you cannot swim in this thread...
love,
sar
Posted by Willow on March 13, 2002, at 22:10:22
In reply to Willow, posted by sar on March 13, 2002, at 21:35:03
> i'll be your spine, your heels, your stem, if you ever find that you cannot swim in this thread...
You've brought tears of joy to these weary eyes. I have no sisters, but if I did I would want a younger sister just like you. One I can relive my youth through and who suprises me with her inner wisdom.
Whispering Willow
Posted by Rach on March 14, 2002, at 1:04:17
In reply to th sound, posted by beardedlady on March 8, 2002, at 13:44:34
> Did you know there used to be a symbol for those two letters? It looked like a fancy Y. People who are trying to be clever and nostalgic will call their businesses "Ye Olde Shoppe," when they really should be calling them, "The Olde Shoppe."
>
> Thorry. But I had to put in my two thenth.
>
> beardy : )>
I studied phoentics and proper speech. I learnt how to write out English langugage scripts (I was studying acting at the same time) using phoentic symbols, and the "fancy Y" is still used for the 'th' sound, although I cannot remember if it is for the hard or soft th.
Posted by Rach on March 14, 2002, at 1:17:05
In reply to Re: th sound, posted by Rach on March 14, 2002, at 1:04:17
Sorry guys, I replied as I was reading the thread, and didn't realise it had moved on to a completely different topic. One I know nothing about because I'm in Australia and have been deliberately keeping away from the news of late.
Posted by Krazy Kat on March 14, 2002, at 10:50:51
In reply to Little sister ..., posted by Willow on March 13, 2002, at 22:10:22
I want to add to this thread, but carefully, gingerly. I hope that is how this comes out.
I know what psychosis is - a ghost that lives in our house tells me to leave, to walk out the door and never look back. I have come perilously close to doing this. Voices tell me to kill myself, to harm myself often. I have never been compelled to hurt others, though. Why the difference? I don't know.
This is a sad case for those of us who understand how reality blurs with the "other side".
But I still have to defend the outcome - I cannot think of those children and not wish some sort of pain on Andrea Yates. Why wasn't the woman who drowned her two children in the lake considered mentally ill by the public? Why didn't she receive any sympathy?
I don't believe in the death penalty. I don't believe in our penalty system - it just doesn't work. I do believe five children, five, are dead and that this woman owes penance. I find her husband reprehensible, but don't believe he can be held responsible for her actions.
I cry for the children, not Andrea Yates.
Posted by OldSchool on March 14, 2002, at 20:48:58
In reply to There is no justice in Texas (nm), posted by Mair on March 13, 2002, at 5:56:48
I will say this about the post partum depression deal. Its one of the worst kinds of depression you can have I have been told by one of my better psychiatrists. I once was referred to a psychiatrist at an elite teaching hospital who one of her specialties was post partum depression and Im a guy. I didnt like this psychiatrist, probably the worst Pdoc I ever had, only went twice.
I was later told I probably got referred to her cause a doctor who specializes in post partum depression is used to working with SEVERE depression and with depression frequently accompanied by psychosis. Post partum depression frequently involves psychosis.
All I will say about this stuff is it is brain science stuff, plain and simple. Its nothing mysterious, psychological or anything else. Also, post partum depression has a lot to do with hormones and not just brain neurotransmitters. Its a physiologically different kind of depression than regular run of the mill clinical depression.
Old School
Posted by kazoo on March 16, 2002, at 0:50:55
In reply to Re: post partum depression is severe depression, posted by OldSchool on March 14, 2002, at 20:48:58
Re. this "post partum" business:
Can it be argued that "post partum depression" is nothing more than an extension of "ante partum depression"?
Say, what?
There's no "ante partum depression"? Then how can "post partum" exist?
In other words, would a pre-existing depressive state have to exist to cause a "post partum depression"?
(a thinking) kazoo
Posted by sar on March 16, 2002, at 13:25:32
In reply to Little sister ..., posted by Willow on March 13, 2002, at 22:10:22
> > i'll be your spine, your heels, your stem, if you ever find that you cannot swim in this thread...
>
> You've brought tears of joy to these weary eyes. I have no sisters, but if I did I would want a younger sister just like you. One I can relive my youth through and who suprises me with her inner wisdom.Willow,
thank you for the kind words. Kid_A directed me to some Salon.com articles on Andrea (all in her defense) and i'm in the library trying not to cry.
i respect you as Wise Willow, and you're one of my favorite sisters on the board. :) (i kind of like to think of all of us in that way, all the girls--sisters.)
love,
sar
> Whispering Willow
Posted by OldSchool on March 16, 2002, at 13:56:12
In reply to Re: post partum vrs. ante partum » OldSchool, posted by kazoo on March 16, 2002, at 0:50:55
> Re. this "post partum" business:
>
> Can it be argued that "post partum depression" is nothing more than an extension of "ante partum depression"?
>
> Say, what?
>
> There's no "ante partum depression"? Then how can "post partum" exist?
>
> In other words, would a pre-existing depressive state have to exist to cause a "post partum depression"?
>
> (a thinking) kazooI dont know kazoo, I dont even know what post partum means. Im too lazy to look it up in the dictionary. The answer to your question, I dont know. I do know there are some Pdocs who have a special "area of interest" in post partum depression and I can tell you from what Ive been told, post partum depression can be an especially severe and nasty type of depression. Frequently involving psychosis, rage, etc.
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