![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 116. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by akc on September 11, 2001, at 9:25:25
I know we have been lucky in the U.S., but this is terrible. Terrorists attacks, wherever they occur, always sadden me. But to fly airplanes into buildings holding 40,000 people -- and causing one to collapse (I'm sure a goal of the terrorist) -- I'm sure the terrorists of the world will salute this act. I've always felt another's pain pretty deeply. I need to make sure this does not trigger me -- my t is going out of town, I'm having surgery, but this is awful -- I'll never understand why anyone thinks death brings answers. I'm terrible saddened, terribly saddened.
akc
Posted by Greg on September 11, 2001, at 10:24:58
In reply to I'm terribly saddened., posted by akc on September 11, 2001, at 9:25:25
Whenever innocent lives are taken, be it 1, 100 or 50,000, it is a horrible thing for me to comprehend. And I'm sure you're right, this is an action that terrorist factions the world over will celebrate with glasses raised. Sad indeed.
But I find myself thinking this morning that when we retaliate, and we most certainly will, and the people repsonsible for these henious acts go into hiding among their countrymen, how many lives of innocent men, women and children will be lost in our attacks against them?
This is a sad day and I'm afraid there are more to come.
akc, I didn't remember hearing mention that you were having surgery. I hope everything turns out well.
Greg
> I know we have been lucky in the U.S., but this is terrible. Terrorists attacks, wherever they occur, always sadden me. But to fly airplanes into buildings holding 40,000 people -- and causing one to collapse (I'm sure a goal of the terrorist) -- I'm sure the terrorists of the world will salute this act. I've always felt another's pain pretty deeply. I need to make sure this does not trigger me -- my t is going out of town, I'm having surgery, but this is awful -- I'll never understand why anyone thinks death brings answers. I'm terrible saddened, terribly saddened.
>
> akc
Posted by Simcha on September 11, 2001, at 10:42:15
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened., posted by Greg on September 11, 2001, at 10:24:58
I am saddened to say that those planes were fully loaded with passengers. This is a most terrible day for us here in the West. I am so blown away that I am unable to do much of anything right now at work. At least I have my feelings. At least I have my meds. I pray for all the people that have just died, I guess even the terrorists who have just died for a dark cause. May HaShem, G-d, judge them and cleanse them of the stain they have put on their souls.
> Whenever innocent lives are taken, be it 1, 100 or 50,000, it is a horrible thing for me to comprehend. And I'm sure you're right, this is an action that terrorist factions the world over will celebrate with glasses raised. Sad indeed.
>
> But I find myself thinking this morning that when we retaliate, and we most certainly will, and the people repsonsible for these henious acts go into hiding among their countrymen, how many lives of innocent men, women and children will be lost in our attacks against them?
>
> This is a sad day and I'm afraid there are more to come.
>
> akc, I didn't remember hearing mention that you were having surgery. I hope everything turns out well.
>
> Greg
>
> > I know we have been lucky in the U.S., but this is terrible. Terrorists attacks, wherever they occur, always sadden me. But to fly airplanes into buildings holding 40,000 people -- and causing one to collapse (I'm sure a goal of the terrorist) -- I'm sure the terrorists of the world will salute this act. I've always felt another's pain pretty deeply. I need to make sure this does not trigger me -- my t is going out of town, I'm having surgery, but this is awful -- I'll never understand why anyone thinks death brings answers. I'm terrible saddened, terribly saddened.
> >
> > akc
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 11:14:55
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened., posted by Simcha on September 11, 2001, at 10:42:15
> AKC - I know what you mean - it can slip you right down the slope into a major episode. We need to think about what we can do instead, perhaps...
Simcha - I appreciate where your non-violent comments come from, but have to say I'm really, kind of unexpectedly, angry. Maybe because it's my city, I knew some people in the towers, I don't know. If I still lived there, would be just a few blocks away. I just feel like, "how dare they touch us, how dare they harm our country, and very likely others in the wake of it all?"
I join you in sadness, too, but not for the terrorists, this time.
- K.
Posted by Rach on September 11, 2001, at 11:21:32
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened., posted by Simcha on September 11, 2001, at 10:42:15
My thoughts go out to the people killed & their families. Also to all Americans, who probably feel less safe because of this awful attack. Like Greg, I just hope more innocent people aren't hurt by retaliation.
I'm in Australia, and I saw the second plane crash live (happened 11.10pm my time); I turned the TV over to the late night news after watching a video, and boom, there it was. I tried to go to bed, but had to get up again because it freaked me out that all this can happen while most of Australia sleeps.
Does make me feel very lucky to be in such an isolated country. Love to you all.
Posted by kid_A on September 11, 2001, at 11:28:59
In reply to Empathy and Depression, posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 11:14:55
Sadly, there are people who would die for their causes, sadly there are people who would kill for their beliefs, and sadly there are people who die daily from starvation and malnutrition, who die because their governments make them disapear, and sadly there are acts of terrorism throughout the world in the belief that an act of violence can change things for the better.
I had a dream that we went to war in the middle east, now that dream is probably going to become a reality...
This morning I've written a small poem, really, just a little prayer, how many words could be written that would change the fates of those who have suffered, and who now suffer... But sometimes it is the smallest thing that has the most beauty...
FIRST POEM FOR THE DEAD
did not know, could
not -how many breathless
faces, how many lidless
eyeshow many broken promises
and dreams derailedand shining like summer,
new york cityand shining like autumn,
washingtonhow many halos, who
could know?how many empty prayers
washed over faceshow many flowers, those
infaliable symbols of
death's quiet grinhow many candles, each
of you onehow many kaddish, that
holy first and final
wordhow many spokesmen, to
speak the unsaidhow many loves, lost
in a sigh of a
petal.
Posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 11:33:39
In reply to I'm terribly saddened., posted by akc on September 11, 2001, at 9:25:25
My sister goes to NYU and my bf works in Manhattan. I haven't heard anything from him, the phone lines (including cell) are all down; subway, Amtrak, NJT, and the NYC and Newark airports are all probably shut down too). I can't reach anybody in the Boston or D.C. metro areas (where I also have family), either.
Needless to say, I'm a basket case. I have CNN on and I'm looking all over the 'net but I can't find out any useful info.
To Greg, about possible retaliation: I was just reading an article about a new TV show in the fall. It's going to be about the CIA. One of the issues mentioned was whether the agency is still relevant in the post-Cold War era. I hope that the CIA will prove its continued worth in seeking out and capturing (or, hell, killing) those responsible without need for civilian casualties.
And to Simcha: I'm having some of the same thoughts as you are -- may God, Great Mother, Allah, whatever have mercy on the dead, the people in the buildings, the people in the hijacked plans, and even the perpetrators. (Appreciate the significance of this sentiment, coming as it is from an atheist.)
I'm mourning in my own way, playing and singing a requiem mass. "Give them eternal rest, Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them."
May death be swallowed up in victory, and may the mourners be comforted.
-elizabeth
Posted by Rach on September 11, 2001, at 11:38:02
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened., posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 11:33:39
My thoughts are with you Elizabeth. You'll hear from your family soon.
Love Rachael
> My sister goes to NYU and my bf works in Manhattan. I haven't heard anything from him, the phone lines (including cell) are all down; subway, Amtrak, NJT, and the NYC and Newark airports are all probably shut down too). I can't reach anybody in the Boston or D.C. metro areas (where I also have family), either.
>
> Needless to say, I'm a basket case. I have CNN on and I'm looking all over the 'net but I can't find out any useful info.
>
> To Greg, about possible retaliation: I was just reading an article about a new TV show in the fall. It's going to be about the CIA. One of the issues mentioned was whether the agency is still relevant in the post-Cold War era. I hope that the CIA will prove its continued worth in seeking out and capturing (or, hell, killing) those responsible without need for civilian casualties.
>
> And to Simcha: I'm having some of the same thoughts as you are -- may God, Great Mother, Allah, whatever have mercy on the dead, the people in the buildings, the people in the hijacked plans, and even the perpetrators. (Appreciate the significance of this sentiment, coming as it is from an atheist.)
>
> I'm mourning in my own way, playing and singing a requiem mass. "Give them eternal rest, Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them."
>
> May death be swallowed up in victory, and may the mourners be comforted.
>
> -elizabeth
Posted by Jane D on September 11, 2001, at 11:42:59
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened., posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 11:33:39
Elizabeth,
NYU is far enough away. I have spoken to people in that area. Even most people in the immediate area are ok. Phones are overwhelmed however. Try not to worry.
Jane
Posted by NikkiT2 on September 11, 2001, at 12:02:29
In reply to I'm terribly saddened., posted by akc on September 11, 2001, at 9:25:25
My thoughts go out to everyone affected by this.. I;ve been following the story on CNN all day... just so heartbreaking
Nikki x
> I know we have been lucky in the U.S., but this is terrible. Terrorists attacks, wherever they occur, always sadden me. But to fly airplanes into buildings holding 40,000 people -- and causing one to collapse (I'm sure a goal of the terrorist) -- I'm sure the terrorists of the world will salute this act. I've always felt another's pain pretty deeply. I need to make sure this does not trigger me -- my t is going out of town, I'm having surgery, but this is awful -- I'll never understand why anyone thinks death brings answers. I'm terrible saddened, terribly saddened.
>
> akc
Posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 12:02:49
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened. » Elizabeth, posted by Jane D on September 11, 2001, at 11:42:59
> Elizabeth,
> NYU is far enough away.Yeah, that's what Chrissie [my sister] said. Despite living within a brief train ride's distance, I know little about the geography of the city.
I just heard from my SO, he's okay, to my great relief. He's trying to walk out of the city with a friend from work. (Just about everyone at his place of work commutes from NJ, it would seem.)
Still no word from Washington or Boston. I know -- knew? -- people who work -- worked? -- in the DC buildings that were decimated.
> I have spoken to people in that area. Even most people in the immediate area are ok. Phones are overwhelmed however. Try not to worry.
Trying....
Thank you both for your kind words.
-elizabeth
Posted by Shar on September 11, 2001, at 12:08:29
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened., posted by Greg on September 11, 2001, at 10:24:58
Greg,
I agree that the retaliation seems as senseless as the terrorism. I hate to think of the innocents that were hurt today, died today, will die tomorrow, and I want to hurt the people who did it. So, I understand retaliation. "Teach them a lesson" mentality.It would be so much easier if each country had official pissers, and the guys could just mark their fucking territory.
YIC
> Whenever innocent lives are taken, be it 1, 100 or 50,000, it is a horrible thing for me to comprehend. And I'm sure you're right, this is an action that terrorist factions the world over will celebrate with glasses raised. Sad indeed.
>
> But I find myself thinking this morning that when we retaliate, and we most certainly will, and the people repsonsible for these henious acts go into hiding among their countrymen, how many lives of innocent men, women and children will be lost in our attacks against them?
>
> This is a sad day and I'm afraid there are more to come.
>
> akc, I didn't remember hearing mention that you were having surgery. I hope everything turns out well.
>
> Greg
>
> > I know we have been lucky in the U.S., but this is terrible. Terrorists attacks, wherever they occur, always sadden me. But to fly airplanes into buildings holding 40,000 people -- and causing one to collapse (I'm sure a goal of the terrorist) -- I'm sure the terrorists of the world will salute this act. I've always felt another's pain pretty deeply. I need to make sure this does not trigger me -- my t is going out of town, I'm having surgery, but this is awful -- I'll never understand why anyone thinks death brings answers. I'm terrible saddened, terribly saddened.
> >
> > akc
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 12:31:09
In reply to -- First Poem for the Dead --, posted by kid_A on September 11, 2001, at 11:28:59
> Thanks kid_A.
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 12:34:35
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened. - Jane, Rach, posted by Elizabeth on September 11, 2001, at 12:02:49
> > Elizabeth,
> > I'm about 2 hours north of NYC. Let me know if there is anything I can do.Communications are better now than they were.
- K.
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 12:45:08
In reply to Re: I'm terribly saddened. » Greg, posted by Shar on September 11, 2001, at 12:08:29
> at times. Nixon signed some stupid U.N. "contract" that doesn't allow us to kill world leaders.
I'm not getting the specifics right, but this is part of it. Sorry, I'm a little upset right now, but I don't think it's the time to start talking "theoretically" about the loss of innocent lives to come. New Yorkers and D.C. folk are gone, landmarks are gone, the stock market's down, our society's communication is majorly disrupted.
This is a major, major thing, and anger at whomever is responsible is warranted - not a time for philosophical moments, worrying about terrorists' "souls".
Sorry, but the focus should be on OUR loss, not on some possible future loss of someone else. It's irreverant and incomprehensible to me...
Posted by Rach on September 11, 2001, at 13:07:03
In reply to Listen,there's a reason we have think about war..., posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 12:45:08
You have completely missed the point. Everybody wants the terrorists to be punished. What we don't want is other innocent people to die & be punished as will ultimately happen if a war starts.
There is no point killing even one more innocent person to get to the terrorists, because that goes against the moral reasoning for punishing the terrorists in the first place.
Of course anger at whomever is responsible is warranted. But so is philosophising - people need to forsee the possible consequences of any acts of retaliation, whether they have implications politically or regarding the loss of more innocent lives. It is selfish to ignore the loss of lives that many countries will experience if war occurs.
The focus should be on sending love & thoughts to the people (& their families) who died, on aiding the injured, & insuring that more innocent lives aren't lost, whether they be in the US or elsewhere. It's incomprehensible to me that you should care so little for the innocent people who would die in war. That would be the biggest tragedy.
> > at times. Nixon signed some stupid U.N. "contract" that doesn't allow us to kill world leaders.
>
> I'm not getting the specifics right, but this is part of it. Sorry, I'm a little upset right now, but I don't think it's the time to start talking "theoretically" about the loss of innocent lives to come. New Yorkers and D.C. folk are gone, landmarks are gone, the stock market's down, our society's communication is majorly disrupted.
>
> This is a major, major thing, and anger at whomever is responsible is warranted - not a time for philosophical moments, worrying about terrorists' "souls".
>
> Sorry, but the focus should be on OUR loss, not on some possible future loss of someone else. It's irreverant and incomprehensible to me...
Posted by kid_A on September 11, 2001, at 13:08:03
In reply to Listen,there's a reason we have think about war..., posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 12:45:08
> Sorry, but the focus should be on OUR loss, not on some possible future loss of someone else. It's irreverant and incomprehensible to me...I agree with you completely. I undestand the idea that inocent lives will be lost, yet thousands of inocent lives have allready been lost... I am not a person who believes in war to begin with, I dont believe in violence, I am somewhat Zen in my philosophy, but it enrages me to think that there are people who are so rutheless and so uncaring for human lives, that they would take actions such as these to prove a meaningless point, that they can inflict damange on the Mighty United States as they surely see us... There is no doubt in my mind that the mechainsm that permits these actions is sanctioned by no god in any pantheon... Its just pure blind zealotry.
As a pacifist, in the sickest sense, I would be happy to see those responsible and their nation completely obliterated... Its makes me sick to feel this way, but I do... It makes me completely griefstruck to even try to understand a loss on such a massive scale, and it makes me so conflicted and puzzled as to why, for what cause could such a thing be worthy?
Posted by kid_A on September 11, 2001, at 13:15:05
In reply to Re: war... » Krazy Kat , posted by Rach on September 11, 2001, at 13:07:03
> You have completely missed the point. Everybody wants the terrorists to be punished. What we don't want is other innocent people to die & be punished as will ultimately happen if a war starts.
Rach, I've heard reports that people in the streets of palesine are recjoicing. Do you think that it is just some rogue element of an obscure part of the middle east? There is an entire nation, if not more than one, who despiss us, (all for a depth of reasons too complex to even note here)... There are children to be sure, there are mothers to be sure, no bloodshed is worth any cause... But what are we to do? What else can we do given our defense policy, a massive and calculated successfull terrorist attack was perpetrated on US soil. We have litterally been forced into a position of retaliation, however you feel on that fact, this is the truth of the matter... No one says that this death is right, no death is right, but try telling that to the families of the grieving....
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 13:17:26
In reply to Re: war... » Krazy Kat , posted by Rach on September 11, 2001, at 13:07:03
I have not completely missed the point Rach. You are making light of a tragedy hours after it has happened!
I can talk forever about how I don't want to see women and children hurt either (by the way, is the women part really fair?), but we're just been ATTACKED. Where are your defense mechanisms? Where's your respect for the people caught in the World Trade Center as it fell in on itself??
I'm sorry but you really shouldn't bring this up immediately after such an event. It's completely disrespectful to my friends who were killed and everyone caught in the tragedy.
Perhaps nothing further will come of it, but the immediate victims, are the ones to be considered first!
- K.
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 13:23:11
In reply to Re: Listen,there's a reason we have think about war... » Krazy Kat , posted by kid_A on September 11, 2001, at 13:08:03
>
I don't understand the cause at all.I know we don't know what is behind it all, yet, but the fact that it happened is as incomprehensible to me as shrugging off these folks' lives.
If you all could see the NYC coverage, the firemen who dove in without any gear, and came out so drowned in soot, they were taken to emergency care and might die from lung poisoning.
There's a hatred of some sort that has been bred, and although I love to pick up Taoist pieces to enhance my life, I cannot fathom not retaliating against someone who has harmed my brethren.
Anyway, that's an argument for later, when we see what the President decides to do. Right now, we must mourn and wait.
Posted by Rach on September 11, 2001, at 13:28:29
In reply to Re: war... » Rach, posted by kid_A on September 11, 2001, at 13:15:05
What reports??? Show me the footage and maybe I will believe that.
As you said, no bloodshed is worth any cause. ANY cause; including revenge/retaliation/punishment. If the US retaliates against an entire country (or more than one) then when will the bloodshed ever stop? The US gets revenge, only to have Country A, B, C turn around and attack the US, killing more people. The volume of lives lost will be uncountable. Today's tragedy will be repeated over & over. The US government needs to be strong, needs to punish those directly responsible, and then prevent further deaths.
No amount of retaliation will EVER make the grieving process easier. It will just delay the pain. The families may scream for blood, but it will only be detrimental to them, & the country.
>
> Rach, I've heard reports that people in the streets of palesine are recjoicing. Do you think that it is just some rogue element of an obscure part of the middle east? There is an entire nation, if not more than one, who despiss us, (all for a depth of reasons too complex to even note here)... There are children to be sure, there are mothers to be sure, no bloodshed is worth any cause... But what are we to do? What else can we do given our defense policy, a massive and calculated successfull terrorist attack was perpetrated on US soil. We have litterally been forced into a position of retaliation, however you feel on that fact, this is the truth of the matter... No one says that this death is right, no death is right, but try telling that to the families of the grieving....
Posted by Rach on September 11, 2001, at 13:50:20
In reply to Re: war..., posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 13:17:26
I didn't bring this up; but I'm not entirely sure what you mean by 'this'. All I did was respond to your post, which I am entitled to do.
I am not making light of a tragedy, and I am extremely offended that you suggest this.
What I AM doing, is hoping that the government considers the consequences of war and retaliation. That they consider the lives that will be lost in war, & of how many other countries will become involved.
I think it is disrespectful to those who have died to make their deaths even more meaningless by killing more innocent people, as you have suggested by saying that war is perhaps necessary. Consider how meaningless these deaths are now, and then consider it after thousands more people have died.
I just found it completely disgusting that you want to consider more death a good way to make up for the death that has already occured.
It is You who has been disrespectful. More death will not solve a thing. The people who have died will be forgotten in the politics and the continued death that war will bring. Death will not increase the defence capabilities of attacks like this in the future. It will be more senseless tragedy.
(as for women & children being hurt; I never said that, & I don't think that is fair.)
> I have not completely missed the point Rach. You are making light of a tragedy hours after it has happened!
>
> I can talk forever about how I don't want to see women and children hurt either (by the way, is the women part really fair?), but we're just been ATTACKED. Where are your defense mechanisms? Where's your respect for the people caught in the World Trade Center as it fell in on itself??
>
> I'm sorry but you really shouldn't bring this up immediately after such an event. It's completely disrespectful to my friends who were killed and everyone caught in the tragedy.
>
> Perhaps nothing further will come of it, but the immediate victims, are the ones to be considered first!
>
> - K.
Posted by kid_A on September 11, 2001, at 13:54:58
In reply to Re: war... » kid_A, posted by Rach on September 11, 2001, at 13:28:29
> What reports??? Show me the footage and maybe I will believe that.
This has been emphasised by two other sources to me... Im sorry I dont have any footage or super8 for you hours after a national tradgedy...
> As you said, no bloodshed is worth any cause. ANY cause; including revenge/retaliation/punishment.
Yet there is worth in bloodshed when it stops further loss of life... I think that is what everyone, (and if you watch the news, nation after nation are declaring their intentions to help eradicate this threat)... I think that is what everyone's goal is... not to *punish* or to give some sort of sick satisfaction to the griefstricken, though I'm sure it will...
Perhaps you would prefer us to put daisys in the rifles of our enemies like Kent State, but in the dynamics of geopolotics this is not going to happen... And I think to ultimately declare a minimal act of pacifism, by removing a few out of hundreds if not thousands of terrorists is not going to make the world a safer place, it also spits on the graves of the dead by making their loss unworthy of any attempt to prevent future loss...
Posted by Jane D on September 11, 2001, at 13:55:57
In reply to Listen,there's a reason we have think about war..., posted by Krazy Kat on September 11, 2001, at 12:45:08
> I'm not getting the specifics right, but this is part of it. Sorry, I'm a little upset right now, but I don't think it's the time to start talking "theoretically" about the loss of innocent lives to come. New Yorkers and D.C. folk are gone, landmarks are gone, the stock market's down, our society's communication is majorly disrupted.
>
> This is a major, major thing, and anger at whomever is responsible is warranted - not a time for philosophical moments, worrying about terrorists' "souls".
>
> Sorry, but the focus should be on OUR loss, not on some possible future loss of someone else. It's irreverant and incomprehensible to me...Krazy Kat,
I think we all know that we are going to war if we haven't already. That means that future loss of life is not just going to happen. We are going to cause it. I think that makes that loss of life something we should grieve. I don't think that takes anything away from those who died already.
Numbly,
Jane
Posted by Rach on September 11, 2001, at 14:06:15
In reply to Re: war... » Rach, posted by kid_A on September 11, 2001, at 13:54:58
>This has been emphasised by two other sources to me... Im sorry I dont have any footage or super8 for you hours after a national tradgedy...
Perhaps you would prefer us to put daisys in the rifles of our enemies like Kent State, but in the dynamics of geopolotics this is not going to happen...*** Sarcasm is disrespectful, unproductive, & hurtful.
>And I think to ultimately declare a minimal act of pacifism, by removing a few out of hundreds if not thousands of terrorists is not going to make the world a safer place, it also spits on the graves of the dead by making their loss unworthy of any attempt to prevent future loss...***Nobody could ever kill all the terrorists in the world. Any large attempt will result in the death of innocent people. I believe the death of even a single innocent person, in relation to this tragedy, 'spits on the graves' of those killed. I know its most likely going to happen, but it is the wrong thing to do.
We're just going to have to disagree on this.
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