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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Twinleaf on July 28, 2013, at 10:59:54
I have just finished reading "in the Shadow of the Tsunami" by Philip Bromberg, a prominent relational analyst. There is a fascinating foreword by Allan Schore. (Affect Regulation). They make a very strong case that it is the right hemisphere of the patient communicating with the right hemisphere of the therapist which increases the patient's ability to deal with stressful emotions - much as a good-enough mother helps a baby learn to tolerate them. They make a good case that non-verbal communication is at least 60% of all communication, and they also encourage therapists to avoid left hemisphere interpretive communications. Over-all, I think many of us are aware that therapy is moving in a more interpersonal, emotion-based direction, but this is fascinating reading for anyone interested in its leading edge.
Posted by Tetrix on July 28, 2013, at 22:31:55
In reply to How therapy works, posted by Twinleaf on July 28, 2013, at 10:59:54
The mention of right and left hemispheres is making this hard to buy, at least for me
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 28, 2013, at 22:40:50
In reply to How therapy works, posted by Twinleaf on July 28, 2013, at 10:59:54
> I have just finished reading "in the Shadow of the Tsunami" by Philip Bromberg, a prominent relational analyst.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book, a movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she is at least aware of it.
Thanks for letting us know about other resources,
Bob
Posted by Hugh on July 28, 2013, at 23:26:06
In reply to How therapy works, posted by Twinleaf on July 28, 2013, at 10:59:54
I find the concept of Dual-Brain Psychology, developed at Harvard by Fredric Schiffer, interesting.
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.04/01-goggles.html
http://www.schiffermd.com/schiffermd.com/Welcome_to_Fredric_Schiffer_and_Dual-Brain_Psychology.html
Posted by Twinleaf on July 29, 2013, at 0:08:58
In reply to Re: How therapy works, posted by Hugh on July 28, 2013, at 23:26:06
That is basically the same thing that Bromberg and Schore are saying - that early trauma, located in the non-verbal hemisphere ( usually the right), is the part of the brain the therapist should be in contact with. With this hemisphere, all the non-verbal aspects of communication ( gaze, voice tone, body movement etc.) are dominant. In order to communicate with this part of the brain, the therapist has to use the same part of his own brain, and minimize verbal interpretations. I think the idea is for the therapist to be intuitive and spontaneous, and sort of let things happen.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 29, 2013, at 0:21:55
In reply to How therapy works, posted by Twinleaf on July 28, 2013, at 10:59:54
Thanks for posting it, Twinleaf, it does look interesting.
There are better and worse claims for hemispheric specialization. One of the first discoveries was that people who acquired lesion to Werneke or Broca's (left hemisphere) regions simultaneously acquired an inability to comprehend or produce speech in their native language.
And blood flows to those regions when people engage in linguistic tasks (compared to I forget what other control tasks) in the MRI scanner (aka: those regions 'light up').
Not ALL people have language localized to these regions... They found that people who know more than one language have a different (more distributed, less localized) set-up. Their second language in particular is more resilient to being knocked out of them via localized tumor or localized stroke (insofar as those things have localized effects) or surgery... They found that some people have their language production / comprehension processing in comperable regions of the right (rather than left hemisphere). That was more common in left handers, but was still rare (even for left handers).
(This matters because neurosurgeons want to leave alone areas that are needed like that).
There is also hemispheric specialization for motor production. The left hemisphere controlling the limbs and much of the right side of the body and vice versa. You can see that quite clearly when those regions are stimulated for neurosurgery (the surgeon 'tests' a bit before removing it. E.g., if you stimulate a bit and the hand jumps then if you remove that bit the hand will probably jump no more). I think that is the thought. Whether it is actually true I do not know. I do know that they test before removal and don't remove bits the surgeon judges to be needed (usually this is about motor production, removing tumors from near the motor production region of the cortex, I think).
There is some stuff on how the left side is more specialized for reason because of the links to language processing... I forget... Maybe I make stuff up... Temporal lobe lesion to I forget which hemisphere... Right? f's up spatio-temporal processing... perhaps also math... temporal lobe epilepsy is associated with lesion or tumor to right hemisphere not left. Or maybe I'm making stuff up now... The face displays basic emotions not symetrically... Since the right side of the motor cortex controls the left side of the face (mostly)... They have found that the left side of the face is more emotionally expressive, apparently. thus the claim that the right hemisphere is more specialized for emotional expression and other non-verbal stuff.
The crude picture of one half of the brain working while the other doesn't work is of course false. There is always a base rate of neural firing... It isn't THAT they fire it is more the RATE of firing. Like the idea of we only use 20% of our brains is crappy... You can remove 80% of the rat cortex before you totally f up rat maze running is the thought there. But of course rats don't tell the experimentor to quit already. Not after... But also not before...
Posted by alexandra_k on July 29, 2013, at 0:25:07
In reply to Re: How therapy works, posted by alexandra_k on July 29, 2013, at 0:21:55
and the split brain operation. that was kinda cool. even though (as is mostly the way IMHO) those rare case studies findings are more likely the product of (unconscious) collusion...
Posted by alexandra_k on July 29, 2013, at 0:34:24
In reply to How therapy works, posted by Twinleaf on July 28, 2013, at 10:59:54
> I have just finished reading "in the Shadow of the Tsunami" by Philip Bromberg, a prominent relational analyst. There is a fascinating foreword by Allan Schore. (Affect Regulation). They make a very strong case that it is the right hemisphere of the patient communicating with the right hemisphere of the therapist which increases the patient's ability to deal with stressful emotions - much as a good-enough mother helps a baby learn to tolerate them. They make a good case that non-verbal communication is at least 60% of all communication, and they also encourage therapists to avoid left hemisphere interpretive communications. Over-all, I think many of us are aware that therapy is moving in a more interpersonal, emotion-based direction, but this is fascinating reading for anyone interested in its leading edge.
I am extremely interested in this. My last therapist clearly subscribed to something like this. And there were aspects of this view in previous therapists... The ones I found the most helpful, for sure.
In light of this view...
What would you (they) make of the theraputic potential of a place like Babble or the idea of text based (or even phone based) therapy?
My therapist was highly skeptical to start with.
He viewed my emails to him, or my writings that I would take along and encourage him to read to be avoidance strategies. My avoiding being present with him in the present moment.
Maybe there was something to that...
But I also think that he failed to see the theraputic potential for... Well... Not Cognitive Restructuring exactly... But, er, perhaps some kind of reframing. Perhaps...
Surely there has got to be a middle way...
Otherwise... Massage therapy anyone???
Posted by Twinleaf on July 29, 2013, at 6:13:28
In reply to Re: How therapy works, posted by alexandra_k on July 29, 2013, at 0:34:24
If these authors have the right idea, it leads to the conclusion that the best therapy is going to take place face-to-face, so that the full range of non-verbal behaviors can be involved. It would make texting, on-line therapy, phone and even Skype therapy much less useful. This is a hard conclusion, as people move around so much now, and many of them keep therapy relationships going through one or more of these ways. I am worried about this myself, as my therapist is going to move across the country; we are debating the best way to keep at least a bit of the relationship going.
Posted by Phillipa on July 29, 2013, at 9:54:50
In reply to Re: How therapy works » alexandra_k, posted by Twinleaf on July 29, 2013, at 6:13:28
Makes sense to me the rest I don't understand. Phillipa
Posted by tetrix on July 30, 2013, at 22:47:36
In reply to Re: How therapy works, posted by alexandra_k on July 29, 2013, at 0:21:55
very nice summary, some of my professors avoid even using the term (hemispheric specialization)
Posted by alexandra_k on August 1, 2013, at 23:43:13
In reply to Re: How therapy works » alexandra_k, posted by tetrix on July 30, 2013, at 22:47:36
thanks. i tried... but probably parts are made up.
can you say more about why they try to avoid it?
my supervisor isn't particularly fond of the idea of mental modules. for the cognitive capacities that make us uniquely human, anyway. whereas some other theorists get excited about loss detection mechanisms and theory of mind modules and morality modules etc.
is that the kind of thing, or is there more to it?
Posted by alexandra_k on August 1, 2013, at 23:47:11
In reply to Re: How therapy works, posted by alexandra_k on August 1, 2013, at 23:43:13
i am broadly sympathetic to this take on therapy.
but then, i also watched "mary and max" just the other night:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgRjB8PEDkM
Which is... About something else, somehow.
Posted by Tetrix on August 3, 2013, at 0:36:05
In reply to Re: How therapy works, posted by alexandra_k on August 1, 2013, at 23:43:13
More from the neuroscience perspective, left brain and right brain is not a very accurate way to portray distributed networks not to mention high neural plasticity involved in cognitive processes
This is the end of the thread.
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