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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by deerock on February 22, 2013, at 23:20:59
I have been in psychoanalytic psychotherapy for about 7 years. 5 years were with an analyst who was helpful in uncovering some of the reasons for my pain, specifically in terms of identifying losses in early life and also identifying ways in which my parents lack of empathy failed me. I would get very angry at her when her empathy was not in tune and ended up causing her to lose objectivity in the relationship and I terminated the relationship. I then spent about 1 year working with a male analyst who wrote several books, was very well known and sort of a powerful figure to me and also in the analytic community. I felt hopeful for the first time and our work was very helpful, i felt understood. He was extremely expensive and insurance changes caused me to terminate that relationship. In the last 6 months, I have been working with another woman and I am constantly telling her this is not helpful, that i want to leave and that its a waste of time. she has stuck by me and insists that it can work and to keep trying. we sought a consult with another therapist who felt we should keep working together and add some medication.
i added the medication and am waiting for it to kick in. its an maoi and im scared of the medicine to be honest and i feel worse than i ever have felt in my life in this treatment. the therapist wants me to stay on the medication and i keep telling her i should find a different therapist to which she says this will not solve anything and is a goegraphic cure of sorts.
i am continuing to try to work with her but its extremly painful and i do not trust that she can help me, which is the root of why i am in therapy in the first place, that people wont help me, wont be there for me, etc.wondering if others can relate or have been through similar experiences and stuck it out or left and found leaving was helpful or found sticking was helpful. thanks.
Posted by Phillipa on February 23, 2013, at 10:27:38
In reply to long road in psychotherapy, posted by deerock on February 22, 2013, at 23:20:59
Why did this current therapist feel you needed meds and why an maoi? Phillipa
Posted by Meatwood_Flack on February 23, 2013, at 12:35:46
In reply to Re: long road in psychotherapy » deerock, posted by Phillipa on February 23, 2013, at 10:27:38
I noticed that the only therapist out of the group you terminated was female and you are now considering terminating another female therapist. Could there be a gender preference at play? It wouldn't be rare, at all. Secondly, unless I read your post wrong it sounds like you may have some trust issues, which are certainly understandable when one has spent years trying to overcome a distressing condition.
Finally, why are you considering trying to find another therapist? Why do you feel that your current therapist isn't helping you? I think you should be as honest with yourself as possible about any biases you may have (and these aren't always obvious, so dig a little.) Is an MAOI the first medication you've been prescribed? It would be unusual, if so, but not a decision your therapist would have made. Sometimes, therapists and clients don't gel, for lots of reasons. Before terminating again, it might be helpful to think about what is motivating you to consider terminating. Are you and your therapist simply not on the same page or are you, possibly, harboring expectations that no therapist could fulfill? The desire to feel better is very powerful and it can lead to expecting more of a therapist than they are able to provide. Mull it over before making a decision
Posted by deerock on February 23, 2013, at 13:23:37
In reply to Re: long road in psychotherapy, posted by Meatwood_Flack on February 23, 2013, at 12:35:46
> I noticed that the only therapist out of the group you terminated was female and you are now considering terminating another female therapist. Could there be a gender preference at play?
Yes, certainly. My transference towards a man is less volatile and less angry.
It wouldn't be rare, at all. Secondly, unless I read your post wrong it sounds like you may have some trust issues, which are certainly understandable when one has spent years trying to overcome a distressing condition.
> Finally, why are you considering trying to find another therapist? Why do you feel that your current therapist isn't helping you? I think you should be as honest with yourself as possible about any biases you may have (and these aren't always obvious, so dig a little.) Is an MAOI the first medication you've been prescribed? It would be unusual, if so, but not a decision your therapist would have made. Sometimes, therapists and clients don't gel, for lots of reasons.The MAOI is the first med ive been in in many years. Years ago, many meds failed so this doc thought hell why bother with all the failed ones from before, lets go to the big momma.
I think she isnt helping because I am back on meds, suicidal and not leaving my house. I have not been this bad in many years. She says its actually because the therapy is working. I am saying its because she isnt helping me feel contained or hopeful, something about her causes me to allow myself to unravel without a stopping point. She says its not her that is causing that and finding someone else wont solve it. Yet it has never happened with anyone else to this extent.Before terminating again, it might be helpful to think about what is motivating you to consider terminating. Are you and your therapist simply not on the same page or are you, possibly, harboring expectations that no therapist could fulfill?
we are on the same page in the sense that we both understand what i am about. the not on the same page part has to do with how bad i feel and that i think it has to do with something she lacks that i need. i think she lacks something she thinks i do. other t's made me feel more hopeful than she does.
The desire to feel better is very powerful and it can lead to expecting more of a therapist than they are able to provide. Mull it over before making a decision
yes i agree. i am not making any hasty decisions. i mull it over quite a bit. too much. i think in part i am expecting something from her that is out of reach but at the same time, ive had it before from other T's so its not made up. its real. but her argument, the current it, is something like hey, its time to provide it for yourself leaving to find it in someone else will not solve this problem. i think she may be right. and thats why i havent bolted yet. just in case she is.
Posted by baseball55 on February 23, 2013, at 19:01:53
In reply to Re: long road in psychotherapy, posted by deerock on February 23, 2013, at 13:23:37
It's true that you have to provide this for yourself. No therapist can give you the sense of trust and care you need to make up for a lack of this as a child. At some point you have to learn to care for yourself and treat yourself with gentleness and compassion. It took me a long time to learn this and to learn how to do this. But now that I have, I feel much better about everything.
On the other hand, I have never fired a therapist. I've had two (both at the same time, one for DBT) and had absolute trust in them both. Still do. But I've cut way back on the frequency of therapy as I learn to rely on my own resources rather than looking to them to give me the unconditional care I seek.
Posted by baseball55 on February 23, 2013, at 19:03:17
In reply to Re: long road in psychotherapy, posted by deerock on February 23, 2013, at 13:23:37
One other thing. If you're going to seek another therapist, maybe you should consider another kind of therapy besides analysis. Like DBT or CBT or some combination. I have found DBT very helpful.
Posted by deerock on February 23, 2013, at 19:39:37
In reply to Re: long road in psychotherapy, posted by baseball55 on February 23, 2013, at 19:01:53
how did you learn to do this and what role did therapy play?
if no therapist can do this for you then i assume their role is to help you learn to do this for yourself?
Posted by baseball55 on February 24, 2013, at 18:42:35
In reply to Re: long road in psychotherapy, posted by deerock on February 23, 2013, at 19:39:37
I never did analysis, so I don't know how exactly that works. My p-doc did dynamic pshchotherapy and encouraged me to find a DBT therapist as well. Both talked all the time about the need to re-parent myself, to talk to myself with the same love and compassion I would give others. Having their example of love and compassion and empathy helped a lot. I became very dependent on my p-doc and wanted him to be my parent, but he explained again and again that he couldn't give me this. So this is how therapy helped me. It also helped because I have a severe trauma background that I had completely buried and I needed to understand that and how that had impacted my views of myself.
I don't know exactly how therapy works. You have to feel trust in your therapist, but you also have to give trust and be willing to change and grow. And like I say, I think analysis is different from regular therapy. It's less interactive.
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2013, at 8:09:59
In reply to long road in psychotherapy, posted by deerock on February 22, 2013, at 23:20:59
I'm torn. On the one hand, there are times when it is worthwhile to stick it out. And perhaps moreso if you have a tendency to dismiss people's ability to help you. This could be part of a pattern.
But on the other hand, and to me a very important hand, therapy is a partnership or marriage. The initial period is like courting. A time to find out if there are shared goals, mutual values, and a fair degree of compatibility. Not every therapist will suit every person. Therapists are not like washing machines. You just can't pick any one in a laundromat and expect the results to be the same. I've quit a fair number of therapists with no regret whatsoever. I spent a good year as a teen with a therapist who never did have the ability to be the least use to me. The fact that my current therapist is helpful to me is as much about intangibles as tangibles. He's able to present things in a way I can take them in. He's intelligent, not the teensiest bit mushy, able to use humor without being unkind or abrasive, and very large. I don't know why the last mattered, but I often suspect the large frame and deep voice awakened on a very deep level feelings of trust and safety.
The same is true of medication. Medication may well be useful, but not every medication will be equally useful for every person. How long have you been on the MAOI? Is it addressing your biological issues?
I second baseball's suggestion that you try DBT. Or if not a formal program of DBT, at least a therapist familiar with the concepts. It emphasizes very helpful tools.
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2013, at 8:16:33
In reply to long road in psychotherapy, posted by deerock on February 22, 2013, at 23:20:59
Incidentally, I don't think it's at all uncommon to have a gender preference. I have heard any number of women say they couldn't work with a man. I've had enough bad experiences with girls bullying me as a teen that I tend to be very aware of negative judgements from women. I suppose there might be value in exploring this with a very special female therapist. But not until my distress on other matters was diminished.
Although perhaps I'm being too harsh on myself. It isn't just any male therapist I'd like either. I think I'd be comfortable with a very small subset of all therapists. Therapists have a great deal of power in our lives. I don't see anything wrong with being picky.
Posted by deerock on February 25, 2013, at 9:18:53
In reply to Re: long road in psychotherapy » deerock, posted by Dinah on February 25, 2013, at 8:09:59
Hi Dinah, The problem I am having with this T is that it is hard to take in what she is saying. I also, when I am able to take things in, feel humiliated by her interpretations. For example she pointed out today that it seems like my mom sees me as an extension of herself and is not aware that I am a different person. This is true but when she said it I felt insulted, angry and alone. I told her this and she said nothing. She almost seemed like she was half asleep. When I told her that she seemed sleepy she said she was. I said this relationship is not helpful and she said she thinks that this feeling of her not helpful is not really about her being sleep its about something else.
I left angry and called her and said I wanted to leave. She called back to say we should talk about it. I have worked with her for 6 months. This same kind of scenario has happened, no exaggeration, almost every single week. It is not getting better.
The MAOI is to try to address the depression I feel. Here is the kicker, I have never ever been as depressed as I am in this treatment and this T feels that is not a sign of this treatment being unhelpful. I really do not know what to do since if I leave, I will feel a loss and loss is hard for me. I feel really trapped.
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2013, at 10:34:40
In reply to Re: long road in psychotherapy » Dinah, posted by deerock on February 25, 2013, at 9:18:53
Did she at all take responsibility for being sleepy? That's not a good thing. That is a failure on her part. Is she often sleepy? I almost left my own therapist over that issue, until he mastered it.
Do you share my tendency to feel criticized by women more than men?
Posted by deerock on February 25, 2013, at 10:52:51
In reply to Re: long road in psychotherapy » deerock, posted by Dinah on February 25, 2013, at 10:34:40
dinah she said that she is getting sick and was more sleepy than usual and understands that is hard for me when she is not with me.
i definitely feel more critized by women than men but im not sure if thats a reason to leave a woman therapist. what is your experience? could you get past it in the past w a woman T?
Posted by Dinah on February 25, 2013, at 11:04:26
In reply to Re: long road in psychotherapy » Dinah, posted by deerock on February 25, 2013, at 10:52:51
If it's not a recurring problem, it's easier to forget and forgive.
I never needed to get past it. In some cases, it was adjunct therapy. In another case, my therapist returned. Once (in that same period) I moved on after one session.
In the case where my therapist returned to town, the woman actually was disapproving. When she started talking about my clothing and hair choices, it was just the last straw.
On the other hand, I met a female neurologist who I would have adored as a therapist. And was more unhappy with a rather brusque male psychologist than I ever was with any of the females. So it's not entirely a question of gender.
I guess I don't see the point of accepting a therapist I wasn't happy with. There are so many of them. I'd no sooner work with a therapist who wasn't right than I'd marry a husband who wasn't right or choose a roommate who wasn't right. I accept less than desirable in medical doctors, because it's a less intimate relationship.
I would only see the point of it if involved the problem that brought me to therapy. Which may or may not apply to you?
Posted by deerock on February 25, 2013, at 11:26:37
In reply to Re: long road in psychotherapy » deerock, posted by Dinah on February 25, 2013, at 11:04:26
yes very insightful comments.
that is the issue. i get along with this woman and like some of the time. i knew her outside of our treatment and we were ok.this issue we are having happens to me in many of my relationships. i often feel oh youre a bad influence on me get lost. and i wind up alone.
true she may not be the best t for me and she may trigger painful feelings by her own neglect. but something tells me to hang on and see if we can get past this. the issue is that its not getting a whole lot better. but she says thats because the issue im having w her is why i am there. which makes sense. and i keep saying to her its why im there but someone else would make it easier to bear and she says no they wouldnt. thats the part she is wrong about i think.
ill bang it out for a bit longer with her, let this maoi junk kick in and see if it improves.
Posted by baseball55 on February 25, 2013, at 21:35:42
In reply to Re: long road in psychotherapy » Dinah, posted by deerock on February 25, 2013, at 9:18:53
If a therapist makes you feel depressed - stop!!!! Therapy should make you feel good, or at least make you feel like you're changing and making progress. If you leave feeling angry and depressed, this is not a good fit.
Why analysis though? Why not find a regular dynamic therapist? The pool is much larger. Also, I had strong preference when I began for a male therapist. I wouldn't even consider a female. I had a terrible relationship with my mother and a troubled but not entirely awful relationship with my father, so a female therapist was out for me. There's nothing wrong with having a gender preference. If you do better with males, look for a male therapist.
Posted by deerock on February 26, 2013, at 6:30:08
In reply to Re: long road in psychotherapy, posted by baseball55 on February 25, 2013, at 21:35:42
hi there, the analysis is interactive. i do analysis because its more frequent.
i dont know if that is true that if it makes me depressed i should stop.
arent you supposed to feel your feelings in treatment and that may lead to someone feeling worse?
Posted by baseball55 on February 26, 2013, at 19:16:48
In reply to Re: long road in psychotherapy » baseball55, posted by deerock on February 26, 2013, at 6:30:08
I guess if you're feeling emotions you haven't allowed yourself to feel before, then you can leave feeling worse. But if you feel worse because of your therapist, that might be a problem.
Posted by Phillipa on February 26, 2013, at 20:24:26
In reply to Re: long road in psychotherapy, posted by baseball55 on February 26, 2013, at 19:16:48
I agree. I would not put myself through this. Phillipa
Posted by deerock on February 28, 2013, at 9:21:48
In reply to Re: long road in psychotherapy, posted by baseball55 on February 26, 2013, at 19:16:48
hi baseball and philippa,
i think im feeling worse because of the therapist since she is female and whatever interpretation she makes i feel deeply offended and wounded since my relationship w my mother was so complicated.
its sort of like a stalemate, she cant do therapy w. me because anything she says makes me recoil. and she insists that we need to work this out. but im afraid it is not possible.
Posted by baseball55 on February 28, 2013, at 19:17:30
In reply to Re: long road in psychotherapy » baseball55, posted by deerock on February 28, 2013, at 9:21:48
I may have said this already, but I had a non-existent relationship with my mother and just hated her. I had problems with women all my life. When I looked for a therapist, I only considered men and older men at that, because I knew on some intuitive level that I wanted a father-figure (my own father was abusive, but occasionally nice and certainly more emotionally available than my mother). I don't think I could have worked with a woman initially. Now I could, but then I couldn't.
Posted by tetrix on March 2, 2013, at 17:54:36
In reply to long road in psychotherapy, posted by deerock on February 22, 2013, at 23:20:59
I have trouble with all this. I wonder if Bob reads it and what does he think about the current trends in practice. Especially psychoanalysis
Posted by deerock on March 2, 2013, at 18:24:37
In reply to Re: long road in psychotherapy, posted by tetrix on March 2, 2013, at 17:54:36
hi there tetrix, can you say more?
what specifically feels troubling? i mean maybe its obvious but im curious to hear more.
thanks.
This is the end of the thread.
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