Psycho-Babble Psychology Thread 1017999

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Re: There is always hope Cyndi Michelle

Posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2012, at 10:43:50

In reply to Re: There is always hope Dinah, posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 16, 2012, at 6:53:32

Cyndi I didn't think anyone still posted on the newbie board seems most go right to med board. I'm glad you are doing well will find and read your posts and welcome. Phillipa

 

Re: There is always hope Phillipa

Posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 16, 2012, at 12:17:06

In reply to Re: There is always hope Cyndi Michelle, posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2012, at 10:43:50

Thank you Dinah. Cyndi

 

Re: There is always hope

Posted by emmanuel98 on May 16, 2012, at 17:23:34

In reply to Re: There is always hope Phillipa, posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 16, 2012, at 12:17:06

Hi and welcome - Nobody really reads the newbie forum, so you should post here from now on. But I went and read your posts and found them very helpful. I have been working with a Dialectical Behavioral Therapist very intensively since last summer, after a suicide attempt. I also was unloved as a child, though my whole upbringing was a mess and traumatic and I did fine until I reached my mid-40s. Then I became addicted to opiates and alcohol (I think my daughter turning 12 and making me think, barely consciously about the mess I was in at 12). I saw a good psychiatrist and after a while, he felt that medical solutions were not going to help me, that I needed to do DBT and learn to live a happier life. One of the prime tenets of DBT is to learn to be kind to yourself, to treat yourself with compassion.

I'm learning. AA has helped me a lot, since it allowed me to make friends and develop intimate relationships with people, where I had been very isolated before.

But I'm finding you're right. Happiness is found in caring for yourself and for others. There is this prayer in the 11th step chapter in the AA literature (not sure where it came from, but it's old) and it says things like, let me bring hope where there is fear, let me bring joy where there is despair. I find it very soothing to think about and try (not always successfully) to live by such principles.

 

Re: There is always hope emmanuel98

Posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2012, at 20:17:18

In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by emmanuel98 on May 16, 2012, at 17:23:34

Hi emmanuel,

> There is this prayer in the 11th step chapter in the AA literature (not sure where it came from, but it's old) and it says things like, let me bring hope where there is fear, let me bring joy where there is despair. I find it very soothing to think about and try (not always successfully) to live by such principles.

It's a prayer historians think was prayed by St Francis of Assisi (France, I think) in the 13th century, very famous to this day for many Christians, particularly Catholics. It's been reprinted a gazillion times. I have it on a wall in my house. Though I am not Catholic, I find many things written by St. Francis compelling and beautiful. I'd guess someone incorporated it into the AA literature at some point. Here's the whole prayer:

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love.
Where there is injury, pardon.
Where there is doubt, faith.
Where there is despair, hope.
Where there is darkness, light.
Where there is sadness, joy.

O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive.
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.

Amen.

It's good stuff, pretty universal, IMO. I'm glad you mentioned it 'cause I think I might need to focus on that right about now.

 

Re: There is always hope emmanuel98

Posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 16, 2012, at 22:48:35

In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by emmanuel98 on May 16, 2012, at 17:23:34

Emmanuel, thank you very much for the welcome and also your response. I am so glad to hear you have found help that you trust. It makes all the difference in our recoveries. You also reminded me of another thing to add to my "to take control" list of recomendations and that is to believe in and trust in GOD and AA has alot of good recomendations/programs/steps. Again, thank you, Cyndi

 

Re: There is always hope

Posted by emmanuel98 on May 17, 2012, at 19:27:22

In reply to Re: There is always hope emmanuel98, posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 16, 2012, at 22:48:35

"God" means nothing to me, though AA literature (and many meetings) are full of it. But I have come to believe in the idea of a higher power -- that I am not in control of my life and need to accept life on life's terms, as they say in AA.

 

Re: There is always hope emmanuel98

Posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 17, 2012, at 21:23:00

In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by emmanuel98 on May 17, 2012, at 19:27:22

Emmanuel, Just out of curiosity, I have to ask, if you believe in a higher power, why not God?
Cyndi

 

Re: There is always hope emmanuel98

Posted by zazenducke on May 18, 2012, at 7:46:52

In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by emmanuel98 on May 17, 2012, at 19:27:22

You do know "Emmanuel" means "God is with us" ?

 

Re: There is always hope zazenducke

Posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 18, 2012, at 8:05:21

In reply to Re: There is always hope emmanuel98, posted by zazenducke on May 18, 2012, at 7:46:52

No, I didn't know but I like it. Cyndi

 

Re: There is always hope Cyndi Michelle

Posted by zazenducke on May 18, 2012, at 8:19:19

In reply to Re: There is always hope zazenducke, posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 18, 2012, at 8:05:21

I like it too :) One of my favorite Christmas carols is O Come O Come Emmanuel.

 

Re: There is always hope zazenducke

Posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 18, 2012, at 8:58:14

In reply to Re: There is always hope Cyndi Michelle, posted by zazenducke on May 18, 2012, at 8:19:19

lol

 

Re: There is always hope

Posted by emmanuel98 on May 18, 2012, at 19:47:33

In reply to Re: There is always hope zazenducke, posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 18, 2012, at 8:58:14

I associate god with being slapped to get on my knees and pray, to being forced to listen to fire and brimstone sermons from as young an age as I can remember, with right wing fundamentalist busy-bodies. God to me means organized religion and I hate organized religion, though I will sometimes attend a unitarian service.

 

Re: There is always hope emmanuel98

Posted by Phillipa on May 18, 2012, at 21:04:49

In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by emmanuel98 on May 18, 2012, at 19:47:33

I'm with you on that I call myself spirtitual. Phillipa

 

Re: There is always hope 10derheart

Posted by sleepygirl2 on May 18, 2012, at 23:41:42

In reply to Re: There is always hope emmanuel98, posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2012, at 20:17:18

There's a song version of that prayer. We used to sing it in school... It's one of the few prayers I can appreciate.

 

Re: There is always hope emmanuel98

Posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 19, 2012, at 7:50:21

In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by emmanuel98 on May 18, 2012, at 19:47:33

I see. An interesting point of view.

 

Re: There is always hope emmanuel98

Posted by Dinah on May 20, 2012, at 14:37:53

In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by emmanuel98 on May 18, 2012, at 19:47:33

I read a book about the ten commandments that makes the case that "Thou shall not take the Lord's name in vain" isn't all about cursing. That it refers to people who do evil in God's name. Which makes sense to me....

You're describing the acts of man, and I daresay that God wouldn't be too happy with those who caused such an association in your mind. I know I'm angry about it.

My experiences with religion were largely positive. Growing up Mormon did wonderful things for my sense of self worth and self respect. I grew up with a bone deep understanding that God loves me, as he loves all his children. That what I did mattered to God.

The difference between my experiences of religion and yours didn't derive from God. The difference was man. People act out their own personalities and issues as much in church as they do anywhere else.

 

Re: There is always hope Dinah

Posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 20, 2012, at 19:27:47

In reply to Re: There is always hope emmanuel98, posted by Dinah on May 20, 2012, at 14:37:53

Dinah, very well said. I agree, Cyndi

 

Re: There is always hope

Posted by emmanuel98 on May 21, 2012, at 21:00:33

In reply to Re: There is always hope emmanuel98, posted by Dinah on May 20, 2012, at 14:37:53

Yes, but you're assuming the term god has some meaning for me, that I have some belief in a loving entity who looks out for me. I don't. I never have. I believe in the good will of other people. I believe we can add to that good will or detract from it based on our own actions. I find that the only organized religion that speaks to me at all is Buddhism and Buddhism has no real belief in a god. I once asked a Buddhist friend of mine (we were talking about AA's emphasis on finding a higher power), What if I could make Gene (a crazy, difficult guy we knew) my higher power? He said then you'd be a saint. You'd be Mother Theresa.

I like that song, what if god was one of us, just a slob like one of us, just a stranger on a bus, trying to make his way home. To me that means, not that god is some kind of supreme being disguised as a stranger on a bus, but that the slob on the bus is as godlike as me and has the right to as much grace and light and dignity as I have.

> I read a book about the ten commandments that makes the case that "Thou shall not take the Lord's name in vain" isn't all about cursing. That it refers to people who do evil in God's name. Which makes sense to me....
>
> You're describing the acts of man, and I daresay that God wouldn't be too happy with those who caused such an association in your mind. I know I'm angry about it.
>
> My experiences with religion were largely positive. Growing up Mormon did wonderful things for my sense of self worth and self respect. I grew up with a bone deep understanding that God loves me, as he loves all his children. That what I did mattered to God.
>
> The difference between my experiences of religion and yours didn't derive from God. The difference was man. People act out their own personalities and issues as much in church as they do anywhere else.

 

Re: There is always hope emmanuel98

Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2012, at 9:16:10

In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by emmanuel98 on May 21, 2012, at 21:00:33

That's fine with me. People have different beliefs. But what you said seemed to go beyond indifference.

"I associate god with being slapped to get on my knees and pray, to being forced to listen to fire and brimstone sermons from as young an age as I can remember, with right wing fundamentalist busy-bodies. God to me means organized religion and I hate organized religion, though I will sometimes attend a unitarian service. "

I love God. It wouldn't have felt right to say nothing, you know? When God was being associated with the bad works of man? Wouldn't you say something should someone say something like that about analysis or therapy or something you felt strongly about as a positive influence in your life?

 

Re: There is always hope

Posted by Willful on May 22, 2012, at 10:27:50

In reply to Re: There is always hope emmanuel98, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2012, at 9:16:10

I think it's great if people find deep comfort in facing life from the idea of god.

But that idea has no meaning in my life. I was brought up without religious training or experiences, and while I have a deep emotional response to the beauty or feeling evoked in temples or synagogues and by certain rituals, I also have that feeling when I hear certain music, or see a beautiful painting or great movie.

For me, spirituality is an emotion, a heightened state of mind, but it doesn't flow from anything beyond this world, any being that's all-powerful, all-knowing, who loves or doesn't love me or knows or doesn't know me. I don't believe life was created by anything but physical forces, or that our sense of right and wrong or of justice depends on their being some sort of judge or commander outside of the human realm.

I have beliefs that I hold strongly about what's right and wrong-- or just-- just as much as anyone who is religious. I deeply object to those who argue that we need religion to have morality-- nor do I think "god" cares how we dress, how often we bow down, or give thanks to him, that there are god-given rules about abortion, respect for others, the role of women etc. Life and experiences, good and bad, are what we have to be thankful for-- the goodness and kindness of others, and beauty around us, the satisfactions of loving someone and being loved-- all these things really are created by us and by those around us-- together in ways that we can't fathom--

So when it comes to recovery models that require me to believe in a higher power, I see that higher power in some part of myself that I don't have contact with consciously, or have control over, that is my will to live, in a constructive, life-affirming way. And I see it also in loving or empathic connections between us and others-- all others, no matter who or where they are. So I try to put my faith in those things, which are unspoken and often unknowable. I try to move in myself toward them.

But of course, those who deeply believe in the goodness of god have every right to evoke and hold onto that as a source of strength, and, to state their belief in that. Where I take exception is when they're judgmental or try to control the live of others who don't share their beliefs.

Willful

 

Re: There is always hope

Posted by emmanuel98 on May 22, 2012, at 18:49:14

In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by Willful on May 22, 2012, at 10:27:50

This makes so much sense to me. Thank you.


> I think it's great if people find deep comfort in facing life from the idea of god.
>
> But that idea has no meaning in my life. I was brought up without religious training or experiences, and while I have a deep emotional response to the beauty or feeling evoked in temples or synagogues and by certain rituals, I also have that feeling when I hear certain music, or see a beautiful painting or great movie.
>
> For me, spirituality is an emotion, a heightened state of mind, but it doesn't flow from anything beyond this world, any being that's all-powerful, all-knowing, who loves or doesn't love me or knows or doesn't know me. I don't believe life was created by anything but physical forces, or that our sense of right and wrong or of justice depends on their being some sort of judge or commander outside of the human realm.
>
> I have beliefs that I hold strongly about what's right and wrong-- or just-- just as much as anyone who is religious. I deeply object to those who argue that we need religion to have morality-- nor do I think "god" cares how we dress, how often we bow down, or give thanks to him, that there are god-given rules about abortion, respect for others, the role of women etc. Life and experiences, good and bad, are what we have to be thankful for-- the goodness and kindness of others, and beauty around us, the satisfactions of loving someone and being loved-- all these things really are created by us and by those around us-- together in ways that we can't fathom--
>
> So when it comes to recovery models that require me to believe in a higher power, I see that higher power in some part of myself that I don't have contact with consciously, or have control over, that is my will to live, in a constructive, life-affirming way. And I see it also in loving or empathic connections between us and others-- all others, no matter who or where they are. So I try to put my faith in those things, which are unspoken and often unknowable. I try to move in myself toward them.
>
> But of course, those who deeply believe in the goodness of god have every right to evoke and hold onto that as a source of strength, and, to state their belief in that. Where I take exception is when they're judgmental or try to control the live of others who don't share their beliefs.
>
> Willful

 

Re: There is always hope

Posted by emmanuel98 on May 22, 2012, at 18:51:05

In reply to Re: There is always hope emmanuel98, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2012, at 9:16:10

I guess it's hard for me to believe that people believe in god. I know they do, I just don't know why they do. It's a concept that has only negative connotations for me.

> That's fine with me. People have different beliefs. But what you said seemed to go beyond indifference.
>
> "I associate god with being slapped to get on my knees and pray, to being forced to listen to fire and brimstone sermons from as young an age as I can remember, with right wing fundamentalist busy-bodies. God to me means organized religion and I hate organized religion, though I will sometimes attend a unitarian service. "
>
> I love God. It wouldn't have felt right to say nothing, you know? When God was being associated with the bad works of man? Wouldn't you say something should someone say something like that about analysis or therapy or something you felt strongly about as a positive influence in your life?

 

Re: There is always hope

Posted by sleepygirl2 on May 22, 2012, at 19:04:15

In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by Willful on May 22, 2012, at 10:27:50

Hello, sleepygirl here, non-believer, raised religious,

Spiritual beliefs are a funny thing. I can appreciate a lot of ideas held by different religious groups, sometimes not in a very concrete way, but in a metaphorical sort of way.

Those song lyrics feel kind of lonely and reassuring at the same time.

 

Re: There is always hope Willful

Posted by Phillipa on May 22, 2012, at 20:46:57

In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by Willful on May 22, 2012, at 10:27:50

Same here but one night well really two this strange thing happened my youngest was in the hospital some gland infection surgery to drain and was so spoiled with food couldn't get one thing in her to eat. Long story short. Two nights in a row "Jesus" appeared in my bedroom. Transmitted message "Be Strong" like a Vision. First night ignored. Second night the next morning went to hospital said to self if she wants to live she will if not nothing I can do and believe it or night she then started eating and was discharged a few days later. Explain this to me. Been trying to understand for 36 years. Phillipa ps no religion either in life

 

Re: There is always hope emmanuel98

Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2012, at 9:24:50

In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by emmanuel98 on May 22, 2012, at 18:51:05

I suppose that's the difference between facts and Truths. Both *seem* self evident to the viewer, but only one is truly objective.

But I daresay we both feel the same anger at those who misuse the name (or concept) of God to be unkind - particularly to children.


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