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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 28. Go back in thread:
Posted by Deneb on April 19, 2010, at 14:28:54
In reply to Today he was more himself, posted by Dinah on April 19, 2010, at 13:18:04
I'm glad your T was more himself and that you're going to try EMDR again. Maybe the last EMDR T just wasn't right for you.
Posted by Dinah on April 19, 2010, at 14:35:15
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself » Dinah, posted by Deneb on April 19, 2010, at 14:28:54
Sigh.
Maybe.
I feel like there is some pressure that EMDR *should* work, and if it doesn't then there's something wrong with me.
It really really didn't. I don't remember all that much about it as far as specifics. It was pre-Katrina and it's hard to remember stuff pre-Katrina sometimes. It's like before and after a new life.
But I do remember she gave up and wanted to quit. I do remember how I felt. I do remember vaguely wondering what all the fuss was about.
I had high hopes for it, too. You know, all the warnings they give about making sure to be careful or bad things can happen really make it sound so powerful. Hypnosis too. It feels so anticlimactic to have it be completely irrelevant.
Posted by onceupon on April 19, 2010, at 19:25:52
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself, posted by annierose on April 19, 2010, at 13:39:00
Glad you had a good (or at least better) resolution to this, Dinah. Sometimes I think therapists are just speaking the *wrong* language :)
Posted by muffled on April 19, 2010, at 20:14:12
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself » Deneb, posted by Dinah on April 19, 2010, at 14:35:15
:) glad t was ok ;)
Ever try SRT?
My friend is training in that and she thinks its real good.
http://www.cftre.com/srt.php
You ever read Peter Levines stuff?
Just some thots.
TC
M
Posted by BayLeaf on April 19, 2010, at 20:15:09
In reply to Today he was more himself, posted by Dinah on April 19, 2010, at 13:18:04
he ought do a cost benefit analysis of taking the emdr training.
he may want to add it to his repertoire.
bay
Posted by muffled on April 19, 2010, at 20:16:39
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself » Dinah, posted by BayLeaf on April 19, 2010, at 20:15:09
Posted by Dinah on April 20, 2010, at 7:51:38
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself, posted by onceupon on April 19, 2010, at 19:25:52
I'm glad too.
In general he's pretty open with me. I've worked hard to have a real relationship and for him to be genuine with me. It's kind of silly to complain when I don't always hear what I want. But in this case, once he took a chance and was open with me, I felt ok about his reasoning.
I ought to trust him and our relationship more. I'm getting better about it, but I still have room to grow.
Posted by Dinah on April 20, 2010, at 7:57:54
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself » Dinah, posted by muffled on April 19, 2010, at 20:14:12
I had looked into that and it looks very good for my overactive nervous system. But I don't seem to see any practitioners in my area. Dysregulation of the nervous system sounds just like me.
I'll look into Peter Levine.
I called a EMDR therapist and haven't heard back. I am just doing it for him though. And since it had zero effect last time, I'm not really expecting it to work. Probably not an auspicious beginning. :)
Posted by Dinah on April 20, 2010, at 8:02:21
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself » Dinah, posted by BayLeaf on April 19, 2010, at 20:15:09
lol.
Yes, I was careful to point out that I can't afford the time or money to spend three hours a week in therapy, so this would be in place of rather than in addition to.
What I really wish he'd decide it was cost effective to do is learn to do hypnosis. He has *just* the right voice for it, and when I'm at my most relaxed, he has a way of letting his voice slip into my mind. Hard to explain...
Posted by Dinah on April 20, 2010, at 8:03:30
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself » BayLeaf, posted by Dinah on April 20, 2010, at 8:02:21
Not that I think he does that on purpose, mind. He's just got the right voice and manner for it.
Posted by onceupon on April 21, 2010, at 1:37:29
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself, posted by Dinah on April 20, 2010, at 8:03:30
A previous therapist had a voice like that. I still miss it sometimes, even though it's been more than six years since we've met.
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2010, at 10:56:36
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself » Dinah, posted by onceupon on April 21, 2010, at 1:37:29
Incredible isn't it? I often think that his voice makes me far less resistant than I might be otherwise.
Just like his size has something to do with my feeling safe with him and with allowing my emotional side to emerge.
I'd like to say those physical attributes don't matter. But I'm pretty sure that for me they do, and they play a part in that ephemeral thing called chemistry.
Either that or he exudes parental pheromones.
Posted by BabyToes on April 21, 2010, at 13:25:18
In reply to Today he was more himself, posted by Dinah on April 19, 2010, at 13:18:04
Dinah,
I think it is great that you are considering giving EMDR a try. Are you going to see someone different this time?I wouldn't worry about you don't feel like it will work. Most T's (who are trained to be skeptical about things like this) go into the training not sure if it really works. Part of their training is actually having it done on themselves while being trained and most of them come away astonished on how it effectually worked on themselves. (even just minor issues)
I have read most of EMDR books that is out there and I like this one the best because it is written by a T and gives her personal experience when learning it and her professional experience in using EMDR.
http://emdrinfo.com/index.php/books/info/transforming-trauma/
This one is similar to Parnell's book, but written from a male T's prospective.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0609607464/psychomentalhealIf you have a choice, I would try to find an experienced EMDR T who has had some recent training in the last 5 years, or had some recent classes because EMDR has evolved into some new tweaks on how to best do it for other issues other than trauma or PTSD.
Every T I have had uses EMDR and they were all somewhat different. The standard procedure is mainly the same, but the way they do it can be different.
My current T allows me to free associate during the experience (using hand buzzers) and letting my mind go where it needs to go and let me talk about what I am experiencing. Some T's prefer that you don't talk (like my first T) about the experiences while it happens.
I would recommended a T who specializes in trauma and who uses it often in their practice. While your issue may not be due to trauma, it just seems to me trauma T's know how to deal better with emotions sensitively that may flood during the procedure or after.
One of the most important things in the beginning is making sure you have a safe place and can effectively use it you need to. Ways of relaxing are good too. Good luck Dinah.
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2010, at 14:05:31
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself, posted by BabyToes on April 21, 2010, at 13:25:18
Thanks Babytoes.
I called one provider listed at the EMDR institute, and she hasn't called me back. I suppose it's only been a day? No, two days. I don't think I'll call her again, but I might call someone else. How long is reasonable to wait in the belief that they intend to return a phone call?
I was a bit put off after reading from this, also from the EMDR institute. In addition to the fact that it did nothing for me the time I tried it, I think I'd also say that the description of my phobia/obsession falls more into the category where they said EMDR may not be as helpful - even if I had responded.
http://www.emdr.com/q&a.htm#q6
If I do go to see one, I hope I don't have to go into a tedious history of unrelated things. Surely I can limit the scope to my phobia?
Posted by BabyToes on April 21, 2010, at 14:34:41
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2010, at 14:05:31
Yes I agree, a T should call back with a day or so. Most would, so maybe they are on vacation or something. Does your T have any suggestions?
They will need to take a history on you, just like any T would. I have read the link before and phobias are not as treatable as other issues. It would depend why you have the phobia to begin with I would think. Was it due to trauma related incident (even if not remembered) or is the phobia unrelated to anything. I have a phobia of deep water and spiders, both are trauma related, one goes back before the age of 3. So I guess it depends on many things. Some T's are better at dealing with phobias than others, some know EMDR and some do not. Some T's return calls and some don't, you know how some T's can be.
BT
> Thanks Babytoes.
>
> I called one provider listed at the EMDR institute, and she hasn't called me back. I suppose it's only been a day? No, two days. I don't think I'll call her again, but I might call someone else. How long is reasonable to wait in the belief that they intend to return a phone call?
>
> I was a bit put off after reading from this, also from the EMDR institute. In addition to the fact that it did nothing for me the time I tried it, I think I'd also say that the description of my phobia/obsession falls more into the category where they said EMDR may not be as helpful - even if I had responded.
>
> http://www.emdr.com/q&a.htm#q6
>
> If I do go to see one, I hope I don't have to go into a tedious history of unrelated things. Surely I can limit the scope to my phobia?
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2010, at 15:14:42
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself, posted by BabyToes on April 21, 2010, at 14:34:41
There were traumatic events. But they've long been leached of any emotional charge. I think I store memories differently than some. The images get filed away, the emotions are thrown into a big undifferentiated bin.
For that matter, I'm not sure if exposure therapy would work. Primetime TV puts a fair amount of exposure out there. I guess it would have to be prolonged exposure. Even then, I think I'd just seamlessly move into mild dissociation. That's what generally happens.
I think I'm just a bit annoyed that I agreed to do something I didn't want to do, and the blasted therapist didn't bother returning my call. Her voicemail said nothing about vacation. It reminded me how much it s*cks to look for a new therapist. I remember the reason I went to my therapist to begin with was that he was the only one who seemed genuinely interested in working with me. I hate to go through the entire process for what I'm sure will be nothing. I don't know if therapists down here are rotten, or I have had bad luck, or if I am just not that appealing a client.
I'll bring the list to my therapist, along with that article, and see if he knows anyone on it, or has any thoughts about how worthwhile it would be to proceed. I really wish he just knew someone he could send me to. But the person he knew didn't want to work with me last time, and I can't imagine why that would have changed. I think it was because I dissociated. Yet the dissociative scales test they did at the other one showed that I wasn't dissociative at all. Bwah hah hah.
Bah. It's an awful process.
Posted by muffled on April 21, 2010, at 16:01:54
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself » BabyToes, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2010, at 15:14:42
What about other body centered therapies?
Did you read Levines book, its good.
TC
M
Posted by BabyToes on April 21, 2010, at 18:51:55
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself » BabyToes, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2010, at 15:14:42
I do remember you saying that you T didn't want you to do it for him, but for yourself. So don't psych yourself out due to minor details. (like one T not calling you back) Most T's I know do want to help people, that is why they are T's. Don't let this one T sour your view on EMDR just because she hasn't called you back.
As far as the dissociation, my T works with that everyday because a huge percentage of trauma memories involve dissociation to some extent. I would have sworn that I never dissociated more than the average person (like daydreaming) but I was wrong. I didn't recognize it and my T now was the first to notice it and bring my attention to the symptoms of it. A lot of her EMDR work is with trauma victims and ALL have involved dissociation to a degree. So it takes a really good trauma specialist to use EMDR most effectively. This is where the new training comes in handy because dissociation wasn't talked about so much in the beginning of EMDR. (like most therapies) Now there is TON of research on it and techniques to use for it, especially since Katrina. In fact a lot of that research is from that horrible event.
As far as your traumatic events being leached of any emotional charge is hard to agree with since you still have this intense phobia. It comes from somewhere. That is why it is important for you EMDR T to know you and for you to feel comfortable with them and trust them. You may think that it is just a single memory because of the phobia, but many times it is linked like a chain of many things. Luckily doing EMDR helps clear the emotional charge of more memories than just the one worked on. Working on this phobia could open a can of worms but it could help clear up other things at the same time.
My T works on body memories as well, because trauma just doesn't' affect your emotions, it effect the body in many ways. It could be that you may not feel the emotions anymore, but your body may haven't processed them yet.
I know it is complicated, reading that Parnell book would help. I found it in the library.But if this is something you truly don't want to do, than you shouldn't. It isn't a cake walk undoing trauma or phobia's. It is going to take dedication and a willingness to become uncomfortable and work through it. You may just not be ready or at a place in your life where you can allow things to get messy for awhile. Listen to your heart and follow that.
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2010, at 19:27:28
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself » Dinah, posted by BabyToes on April 21, 2010, at 18:51:55
But... If it just doesn't work on me, EMDR or hypnosis or body work or whatever, if it just doesn't work....
Does it have to be because I don't want to re-experience the pain or am not willing to be uncomfortable?
Isn't it possible that even if I want these things to work, which I did, they just don't? Not for me?
Fortunately neither my hypnosis therapist nor my EMDR therapist put any blame on me for it not working. But it always seems like it's built into the system somehow. Like if I wanted it to work, it would. Believe me, I wanted it to work. Especially the hypnosis. I really really wanted that to work. It just didn't. I really don't want to feel like I've failed again. Failed again to connect to a therapist. Failed again to experience that I'm apparently supposed to experience, but just don't.
I was all for doing it the first time. But I admit, I'm kind of annoyed at having to go through all this again when I have no expectation whatsoever that it will be helpful because it wasn't the last time, with a fully trained and not unpleasant therapist.
Why can't it just not be helpful for me?
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2010, at 19:46:03
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2010, at 19:27:28
And yes, I know. It just didn't work with *that* therapist. It may well work with this one.
That's why I agreed to do it again. I'm hoping two will put the matter to rest. Otherwise I could be stuck in an endless cycle of going to EMDR therapist after EMDR therapist on the assumption that the therapy *has* to work. I just haven't found the right therapist yet, or I wasn't ready to open myself to it yet.
I don't think there does need to be an emotional charge from the original memories for the phobia to be alive and well. Anxiety feeds on itself, and erects an entire scaffolding that has only tangential relationship to the original. Anticipatory anxiety ends up being more powerful than actual anxiety. I am aware that at some level at one time I associated vomit and abandonment. Maybe I still do. But I think a lifetime of avoiding it and obsessing about it all the time probably has a lot more to do with what is happening now than the original trauma does. The fear of the fear becomes more powerful than the fear. Just like the contamination fears that come with it can't be cleaned by all the bleach in the world, because the contamination is just *awareness*.
Moreover my fear ends up being a place to focus every fear I have about everything. It always did. Life as I knew it was falling apart. It was way too big to think about. But I could focus all my energy on that one fear. I could invest that one fear, that one obsession, with all the power of all my feelings.
It's all just... It's just not so direct as all that. I can't just resolve a memory and be free from my fear. And that's assuming that this time I'll miraculously find something more powerful in EMDR than a mildly interesting distraction.
Isch. I'm sorry. I just am upset that I feel like if I'm to be a good girl, a good therapy client, I need to do this.
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2010, at 19:58:43
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2010, at 19:46:03
But...
It's not like it will do any harm. It won't cost any more money, because I will see the other therapist once a week in place of my therapist. And I don't find it offensive in any way.
So if I'm to be a compliant and earnest client, it might as well be this way as any other. Where's the harm, aside from a bit of annoyance. If it works, great. If it doesn't work, no big deal.
I'll call again, and hopefully he'll recognize someone's name with a positive association so it won't be calling completely blind.
Posted by BabyToes on April 21, 2010, at 21:39:01
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2010, at 19:58:43
I am sorry if my words have upset you DInah, I wanted to help, but again, I should just learn not to say anything anymore here. Especially since I wasn't asked even.
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2010, at 22:17:27
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself, posted by BabyToes on April 21, 2010, at 21:39:01
No, you didn't upset me. In fact, you helped me. Because of my conversation with you, I realized I was having a miscommunication with my therapist, even if it took place all in my own mind.
I was thinking of it as (speaking to the therapist in my mind) "What part of 'It wasn't helpful' are you not understanding? Why are you asking me to do something I already said didn't work?"
While he's thinking more along the lines of "I know she said this didn't work before, but I've heard such good things about it. I think it would be good for her, and I need to try to encourage her to try it again. She doesn't like it when I push, so I'll make clear it's entirely up to her."
I didn't even realize how annoyed I was with him, and didn't realize how I was thinking of his request.
Now I understand a bit more about the subtext.
So you helped, and I thank you.
Posted by BabyToes on April 21, 2010, at 22:44:11
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself » BabyToes, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2010, at 22:17:27
Thanks DInah,
I thought, here I go again... and thought I needed another kick in the pants...
I am sorry you seem upset about this whole thing. EMDR can just not work for you and that doesn't mean anything negative about you. But I would like to see you give it a fair chance because I am really hoping it will work. The release can be amazing and I want you to feel that. I am a bit zealous about it, I admit it. Even if all you learn is a new way to calm yourself down from the anxiety- even that could be good.
My T uses it on a couple athletes to help improve their performances. With me, my creative juices just flow out of me, things I never knew I had. I guess that is why I am so excited about it, I have felt it change me so much this year in a lot of ways.
But that doesn't mean it will work the same for everyone. I don't receive cognitive therapy very well. I hate it actually, thankfully my last 2 T's were not trained in it as their focus. (they were required to take SOME classes in it though)My current T says it was a "bear" to learn, but she took the good out of it and uses it sometimes, but it isn't her main way to do therapy.But just the fact you are willing to keep trying in therapy, that shows a lot of guts and I respect you for that. If it works, great, if not, at least you can say you gave it a try. (again)
Posted by Dinah on April 22, 2010, at 8:45:06
In reply to Re: Today he was more himself, posted by BabyToes on April 21, 2010, at 22:44:11
I'm really glad you have something that works so well for you. It sounds like when it works, it can be very powerful and add a lot to the therapy process.
I am willing to try again, and thanks to our conversation, I think I'll be able to try with less resistance and less irritation towards my therapist. Thank you for that.
I know you don't necessarily have positive feelings for him. But I have a tendency to post here when I'm confused or angry, and my perceptions (as with this time) may be a bit askew. Babble can help me straighten them and understand things from a different perspective. Whatever I may lead people to believe, he has ironclad boundaries where it counts. And he is truly extraordinary in many ways. He's not perfect, but I always find that extreme gifts rarely come without flip sides. I can't imagine any other therapist I've ever seen being able to change my point of view the way he's done. Not even the most "professional" of them, T3. I think I respond to someone who is more flexible and willing to think outside the box, and who is willing to be brave and take chances and invest themselves the way my therapist has.
I'm not an easy client, as you might guess. I can be stubborn. I have idiosyncratic points of view. And while I don't press boundaries outside the therapeutic room, I press hard inside the therapy room. I press him to be real and genuine and reveal himself to me. He says it isn't easy to be in therapy with someone whose radar is constantly on. I imagine he also means someone who follows up on that radar, and demands that he be fully engaged and present and vulnerable? I'm not sure that's the right word.
I really feel regret if I haven't adequately conveyed how really gifted he is, in his own way. A way that very much uses who he is. He's one of the bravest therapists I've ever read about or known. Sort of like like Irvin Yalom in that way, though not at all like him in other ways.
Besides, a perfect therapist would be dull, and intimidating, and would have no chance to role model being a human being who sometimes needs to step back and apologize.
(In that light, I apologize if I got heated on this thread. It was directed to my therapist in absentia, not to you.)
This is the end of the thread.
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