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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by SLS on June 15, 2009, at 15:25:09
Hi.
I frequently have dreams of being bullied by my very real nemeses from high school days. Seeing as these things occurred over 30 years ago an as an adolescent, I am not sure quite what to make of them. They become more frequent when my depression gets worse. When my depression begins to remit, I am more assertive in my dreams and do not come upon such incidents.
As an adult, I thought I had processed most, if not, all of the issues surrounding my experiences of being bullied from ages 10-18. Well, I guess now that I see it in writing, it is easy to see how such a wound might not have healed properly.
I must be missing something. I want to work through this, but I am not sure where to begin looking. My therapist feels that there is probably something that remains unresolved. My instincts tell me that she is right. Maybe I still need to meet the approval of these bullies? Maybe I can never meet the approval of anyone from high school while I remain depressed? I don't know. I have not gone to any of our class reunions.
Any ideas?
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by TherapyGirl on June 15, 2009, at 17:34:51
In reply to Dreams of being bullied, posted by SLS on June 15, 2009, at 15:25:09
I'm sorry this happened to you 30 years ago and is happening to you again now in your dreams, Scott. You don't deserve that.
From my own experience with depression, once it gets to a certain level, pretty much every horrible thing that's ever happened to me is foremost in my mind at all times. For me, it is definitely a brain chemistry thing. I'm sure there are a few things I haven't dealt with, but mostly I really have put it behind me. You'd never know it when I'm depressed, though.
I know that's not helpful. I hope you find some answers.
Posted by FindingMyDesire on June 15, 2009, at 22:54:53
In reply to Dreams of being bullied, posted by SLS on June 15, 2009, at 15:25:09
Dear Scott,
First of all, sorry to hear about the depression.And sorry to hear about the dreams. I'm curious about the players in the dreams and if anything seems different than when these terrible experiences happened to you before.
The words "high school" and "approval" seem like they can rarely go together. I don't know what the flavor of bullying was for you (besides bad, obviously) but I think some of that sticks to us forever.
I'm not sure going to a reunion would help in that. Sometimes people emerge from those events feeling worse, sometimes vindicated in some way, sometimes reconnected to parts of themselves forgotten. Any way it gets sliced, though, I thinks it's intense.
I was both bullied and protected from bullies throughout part of my high school. I don't dream of those times anymore, but Facebook has sure brought those memories back to the forefront!
I really have no insights at all about this. I just hope you are able to find something in those dreams to relate to how you are feeling in the now that can help. I'm glad that your T is supportive of exploring such things.
FMD
Posted by Sigismund on June 16, 2009, at 1:18:26
In reply to Dreams of being bullied, posted by SLS on June 15, 2009, at 15:25:09
>I have not gone to any of our class reunions.
Me neither. I never went back.
I went to a boarding school, not a bad one, not a good one, just the total environment thing. Some people coped much better than others. There is this kid who stays in my mind...I suppose I admired him for his extensive irony, although then again I'm not sure. He would find a prefect or a thug and challenge them to piss on him. A bit like the 72yo grandmother from Texas recently who challenged the police to taser her, which they promptly did. Our state has just received $10M worth of these useful items.
Posted by fleeting flutterby on June 16, 2009, at 9:34:43
In reply to Dreams of being bullied, posted by SLS on June 15, 2009, at 15:25:09
> Hi.
>
> I frequently have dreams of being bullied by my very real nemeses from high school days. Seeing as these things occurred over 30 years ago an as an adolescent, I am not sure quite what to make of them. They become more frequent when my depression gets worse. When my depression begins to remit, I am more assertive in my dreams and do not come upon such incidents.<<---flutterby: Past traumas can haunt us for our whole lives. and it does make sense that the more depressed you are the more you allow your "power" to be stifled.
>
> As an adult, I thought I had processed most, if not, all of the issues surrounding my experiences of being bullied from ages 10-18. Well, I guess now that I see it in writing, it is easy to see how such a wound might not have healed properly.
>
> I must be missing something. I want to work through this, but I am not sure where to begin looking. My therapist feels that there is probably something that remains unresolved. My instincts tell me that she is right. Maybe I still need to meet the approval of these bullies?<<---flutterby: maybe seeing them as developing children also, as you were, and not knowing what abuse can do to someone-- that may help in not giving the bullies so much power. they were children also..... (which doesn't excuse their behavior, just that, I think it's helped me as I repeat to myself that my siblings, who hurt me daily, were also children)
>>Maybe I can never meet the approval of anyone from high school while I remain depressed? I don't know. I have not gone to any of our class reunions.<<
----flutterby: do you wonder why it's important to you, even to this day, to meet those people's approval?? do you have to mingle with any of them now? Maybe it's your own approval that evades you?...... maybe you still hear, on occasion, those past tauntings and struggle in not agreeing with them..... (that's what I still do anyway) My sister next to me in age(older) said daily -what a loser I was, how I can't do anything right, that I am NOT friend quality-- she was the favored one-- she did acutally have golden hair too! I believed every word she said, especially since no adult would ever negate her words. :o(
I have grown to realize that it's the adults fault in allowing this to carry on for 20+ years and NOT the abusive child's/siblings fault. It doesn't matter what the bully child thought-- she was also just a child--- children are quite ignorant to such things. The adults should have put a stop to it-- as I also think in your case. It's the teachers, counselors, bus drivers ect.. etc... the adults fault.not sure if this was helpful to you at all..... it's just some things that have helped me, so I thought I'd share.
best to you,
flutterby-mandy
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by Deneb on June 16, 2009, at 12:10:51
In reply to Dreams of being bullied, posted by SLS on June 15, 2009, at 15:25:09
Sorry about your nightmares Scott.
Have you ever tried to lucid dream? I lucid dream all the time and I am not afraid of nightmares at all now. I find nightmares entertaining.
Try some reality testing next time you are in a dream to trigger lucidity. For me it is reading something in a dream. When the letters don't make any sense and are all jumbled up, I know for sure I am in a dream. That is my method. You can find your own method.
Once you are lucid sometimes you can exert control over your dreams. I really like to fly at this point, but I can't always exert control.
Even if you can't control your dream, being an informed observer in your dream really makes a difference. You won't be scared anymore.
Posted by Phillipa on June 16, 2009, at 12:24:17
In reply to Re: Dreams of being bullied » SLS, posted by Deneb on June 16, 2009, at 12:10:51
Not high school but past life and wishing I could go back and live it again. I dream each night. I feel like my life is over but I was the brat in school. Scott hope they go away I wonder if that's the reason for the body building? Phillipa
Posted by SLS on June 16, 2009, at 19:33:32
In reply to Re: Dreams of being bullied » SLS, posted by fleeting flutterby on June 16, 2009, at 9:34:43
Hi Mandy.
> ---flutterby: maybe seeing them as developing children also, as you were, and not knowing what abuse can do to someone-- that may help in not giving the bullies so much power.
Yes. That does help some. Thanks.
> >>Maybe I can never meet the approval of anyone from high school while I remain depressed? I don't know. I have not gone to any of our class reunions.<<
> ----flutterby: do you wonder why it's important to you, even to this day, to meet those people's approval??Good question. In my mind, I am a failure compared to them. I didn't succeed in life by the definitions we had as kids in school.
> do you have to mingle with any of them now?
No.
> Maybe it's your own approval that evades you?
I need to think about this some more.
> ..... maybe you still hear, on occasion, those past tauntings and struggle in not agreeing with them..... (that's what I still do anyway)
I need to think about this some more.
:-)
Thanks, Mandy
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 16, 2009, at 19:36:56
In reply to Re: Dreams of being bullied » SLS, posted by TherapyGirl on June 15, 2009, at 17:34:51
Hi TG.
> From my own experience with depression, once it gets to a certain level, pretty much every horrible thing that's ever happened to me is foremost in my mind at all times.
Definitely.
Gosh, I hope you are not there right now.
I am grateful not to be there today.
> I hope you find some answers.
Thanks. With these illnesses, it is very difficult to parse out what is biological and what is psychological. I'm pretty good at it, but still get fooled from time to time.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 16, 2009, at 19:50:37
In reply to Re: Dreams of being bullied, posted by FindingMyDesire on June 15, 2009, at 22:54:53
Hi.
> I'm curious about the players in the dreams and if anything seems different than when these terrible experiences happened to you before.
That's a great question. In general, I think they are the same as when we were in school. In fact, I don't think that the backdrop for the scenes were at all current. They all seem to be contemporaneous with high school.
> The words "high school" and "approval" seem like they can rarely go together.
Yes. I think I need to integrate this high school stuff with what came before to try to understand why I was so vulnerable to such long-term effects of the bullying. You know, the more attention I give this thing, the bigger it gets. This is a good thing, I'm pretty sure. It's like it has connections to a great many things past and present. I think it might be at the core of at least half of my emotional difficulties. I'll allocate the other half to my mother. :-(
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 16, 2009, at 19:52:36
In reply to Re: Dreams of being bullied » SLS, posted by Deneb on June 16, 2009, at 12:10:51
> Sorry about your nightmares Scott.
Thanks, Deneb.
> Have you ever tried to lucid dream? I lucid dream all the time and I am not afraid of nightmares at all now. I find nightmares entertaining.I have never heard of lucid dreaming. Interesting. I'll have to look into it.
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on June 17, 2009, at 5:21:48
In reply to Dreams of being bullied, posted by SLS on June 15, 2009, at 15:25:09
I find that my past life with bullies comes most insistently to my mind when I'm in current situations and emotional states that echo the past ones.
In my case, it's feeling trapped and with no way out. Or feeling like I am being left unsupported in an unfair situation.
In your case it might be different. It sounds as if you internalized the bully's judgments of you more than I did. I may have felt trapped by them, and wanted to (in dog language) chew my leg off in the trap. But their opinions of me were so far off the mark that they were laughable.
For the most part, I've only gone to reunions at the school where I was happy and not bullied. But I did go to one reunion at the other place. With one exception, they seemed to have grown into just the sort of adults that one would expect. The ones who tormented me then were still b*tches. And even if they had achieved more overt success in their lives than I had, the state of their souls, for want of a better word, was not anything one would envy.
While yours appears to be in fine shape. :)
Is there anything going on in your life right now that has you feeling somewhat similar to how you felt then?
Posted by SLS on June 17, 2009, at 12:32:38
In reply to Re: Dreams of being bullied » SLS, posted by Dinah on June 17, 2009, at 5:21:48
> And even if they had achieved more overt success in their lives than I had, the state of their souls, for want of a better word, was not anything one would envy.
>
> While yours appears to be in fine shape. :)What an uplifting affirmation. Thanks.
> Is there anything going on in your life right now that has you feeling somewhat similar to how you felt then?
Yes. I am being bullied by my depression. I have seen it as a solid wall that I cannot break through, and that wall has trapped me. It has pushed me further down recently. I was discussing these dreams with my therapist. She wasn't sure what they symbolized, but asked me if I had a first guess. I was almost apologetic to suggest that it was my biological depression. She was not surprised and said that it was a valid reason. However, I think there is more to it.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on June 17, 2009, at 20:06:07
In reply to Re: Dreams of being bullied » Dinah, posted by SLS on June 17, 2009, at 12:32:38
Seems you have some unresolved issues concerning your mother from what you wrote. Maybe look there? Phillipa
Posted by SLS on June 17, 2009, at 20:17:20
In reply to Re: Dreams of being bullied » SLS, posted by Phillipa on June 17, 2009, at 20:06:07
> Seems you have some unresolved issues concerning your mother from what you wrote. Maybe look there? Phillipa
Yeah. There was a lot there, but I am pretty sure all has been resolved. It was not an overnight thing. The process took a few years. I guess, in a way, she bullied me and my siblings. She was very domineering.
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on June 17, 2009, at 21:34:32
In reply to Re: Dreams of being bullied » Dinah, posted by SLS on June 17, 2009, at 12:32:38
High school bullies do have an interesting interpersonal connotation.
I hesitate to bring back bad memories, but it seemed like when your grandmother died, you felt like the medical staff were bullying you and disrespecting your input. And you thought that if you were a medical professional yourself, they would not have treated you that way.
When you described your bullies, that experience came to my mind.
Posted by Phillipa on June 17, 2009, at 21:47:25
In reply to Re: Dreams of being bullied » Phillipa, posted by SLS on June 17, 2009, at 20:17:20
After reading Dinah's response seems like the nurturer was your Grandmother. And hospitals after working in one some staff are not the friendliest. Scott I'm sorry for your pain. I feel you're also looking for more nurturing from babble as your nurturer is no longer here. And the depression. But you know we're here. Love always Phillipa
Posted by SLS on June 18, 2009, at 5:51:51
In reply to Re: Dreams of being bullied » SLS, posted by Dinah on June 17, 2009, at 21:34:32
> High school bullies do have an interesting interpersonal connotation.
>
> I hesitate to bring back bad memories, but it seemed like when your grandmother died, you felt like the medical staff were bullying you and disrespecting your input. And you thought that if you were a medical professional yourself, they would not have treated you that way.
>
> When you described your bullies, that experience came to my mind.I never thought of it that way. It was certain members of the nursing staff that bullied me more than the doctors.
I sure felt weak for allowing them to get their way. Now, I feel somewhat guilty that this weakness allowed them to make my grandmother's last days painful and psychotic. They just wouldn't listen to me, regardless of how civil were my attempts at communication.
Thanks, Dinah.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 18, 2009, at 5:53:23
In reply to Re: Dreams of being bullied » SLS, posted by Phillipa on June 17, 2009, at 21:47:25
> After reading Dinah's response seems like the nurturer was your Grandmother.
She was.
> Scott I'm sorry for your pain. I feel you're also looking for more nurturing from babble as your nurturer is no longer here. And the depression. But you know we're here. Love always Phillipa
Thanks, Jan.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on June 18, 2009, at 20:33:27
In reply to Re: Dreams of being bullied » Phillipa, posted by SLS on June 18, 2009, at 5:53:23
We are here for you as you have always been here for us. Love Phillipa
Posted by HyperFocus on June 18, 2009, at 21:00:59
In reply to Dreams of being bullied, posted by SLS on June 15, 2009, at 15:25:09
The dreams are one thing, but what about your reactions to them? I'm kind of in the (uniformed) school that views dreams as just emissions from our brain during rest - and not necessarily markers of experiences we need to process. I think the key is that when the biological depression lessens, the nature of the dreams change. During your period of temporary remission were you distressed with these dreams? That could be a guide as to how to handle this.
Scott you know you and I share a lot of common experiences and I hope you will forgive me if I go too far projecting my personal experience onto your own. But you have to understand something - In this life jealousy and envy are terrible things. My mother used to tell me a story about a rich child who had all the toys in the world and a destitute child who had only an empty soapbox to play with, but which gave him much happiness. The rich child left his toys to take the soapbox away from the poor child so he could play with it. I grew up and I found this parable demonstrated in my own life. This life and this world are full of evil. You have to realize it is because you are special that you were attacked, by those whose hearts churned and vomited because they desired something they could not have and then tried to destroy. In this life it is the good and the righteous who are persecuted the most - look at what happened to Aung San Suu Kyi for example. How do you think she feels forced to spend decades of her life in prison by the evil men who rape their own country? She had a hysterectomy in prison while the top general's daugther got married laden with diamonds. Is her heart full of hatred towards these people? Probably. But is her head bowed? I doubt it. Has the final chapter been written in Burma's history? I wouldn't bet on it.
You can look through history and find thousands of instances of this, all through space and time. In the Christian Bible there are many petitions to deliver one from the hands of their enemies - enemies which seem to have gained ascendancy. You are not the first to feel this way, not by a longshot. But it does not matter if your enemies have a built a city and are carousing day and night, while you wither in a cave. This life is long, terribly long; the road stretches for millions of miles. Sometimes we have to travel thousands of miles in dark valleys full of despair before we begin to ascend to the summit.
You may be tempted, like Job, to curse God and die. Yet you live and your hope is alive. Your enemies are being denied victory. Their demons are distorting your reality - trying to convince you of things about yourself you know not to be true. But they cannot prevail. The strength you have gained will one day crush your foes like dry insects under your feet. God reserves the hardest tests for his most blessed sons and daughters. History, both actual and allegorical, seems to correlate this hypothesis. Abraham, Job, Moses, David,...oh yeah remember that crazy kid from Nazareth who was betrayed and persecuted so terribly? Whatever happened to him anyway?
I'm also leaving a post for on the meds board. Take care of herself. Don't try to fight elusive battles and apparitions in the air. You are alive and your hope is undiminished - that is enough for now.
Posted by SLS on June 19, 2009, at 5:27:13
In reply to Re: Dreams of being bullied » SLS, posted by HyperFocus on June 18, 2009, at 21:00:59
I really don't have sufficient words to thank you for posting this, so...
:-)
- Scott
> The dreams are one thing, but what about your reactions to them? I'm kind of in the (uniformed) school that views dreams as just emissions from our brain during rest - and not necessarily markers of experiences we need to process. I think the key is that when the biological depression lessens, the nature of the dreams change. During your period of temporary remission were you distressed with these dreams? That could be a guide as to how to handle this.
>
> Scott you know you and I share a lot of common experiences and I hope you will forgive me if I go too far projecting my personal experience onto your own. But you have to understand something - In this life jealousy and envy are terrible things. My mother used to tell me a story about a rich child who had all the toys in the world and a destitute child who had only an empty soapbox to play with, but which gave him much happiness. The rich child left his toys to take the soapbox away from the poor child so he could play with it. I grew up and I found this parable demonstrated in my own life. This life and this world are full of evil. You have to realize it is because you are special that you were attacked, by those whose hearts churned and vomited because they desired something they could not have and then tried to destroy. In this life it is the good and the righteous who are persecuted the most - look at what happened to Aung San Suu Kyi for example. How do you think she feels forced to spend decades of her life in prison by the evil men who rape their own country? She had a hysterectomy in prison while the top general's daugther got married laden with diamonds. Is her heart full of hatred towards these people? Probably. But is her head bowed? I doubt it. Has the final chapter been written in Burma's history? I wouldn't bet on it.
>
> You can look through history and find thousands of instances of this, all through space and time. In the Christian Bible there are many petitions to deliver one from the hands of their enemies - enemies which seem to have gained ascendancy. You are not the first to feel this way, not by a longshot. But it does not matter if your enemies have a built a city and are carousing day and night, while you wither in a cave. This life is long, terribly long; the road stretches for millions of miles. Sometimes we have to travel thousands of miles in dark valleys full of despair before we begin to ascend to the summit.
>
> You may be tempted, like Job, to curse God and die. Yet you live and your hope is alive. Your enemies are being denied victory. Their demons are distorting your reality - trying to convince you of things about yourself you know not to be true. But they cannot prevail. The strength you have gained will one day crush your foes like dry insects under your feet. God reserves the hardest tests for his most blessed sons and daughters. History, both actual and allegorical, seems to correlate this hypothesis. Abraham, Job, Moses, David,...oh yeah remember that crazy kid from Nazareth who was betrayed and persecuted so terribly? Whatever happened to him anyway?
>
> I'm also leaving a post for on the meds board. Take care of herself. Don't try to fight elusive battles and apparitions in the air. You are alive and your hope is undiminished - that is enough for now.
Posted by HyperFocus on June 20, 2009, at 22:38:23
In reply to Re: Dreams of being bullied » HyperFocus, posted by SLS on June 19, 2009, at 5:27:13
In addition to avoidant I'm also strongly narcissistic and borderline. I didn't mean to stomp all over your issue with this self-aggrandizing stuff. Sorry.
This is the end of the thread.
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