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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 35. Go back in thread:
Posted by wittgensteinz on February 5, 2009, at 8:15:52
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call......, posted by sharon7 on February 5, 2009, at 7:24:10
In my case it's simple because he works from home and has no secretary so if I would write or phone to cancel he would ask why. He's never cancelled a session except for taking leave for holidays. So he's obviously know. I have just not turned up a couple of times and he's phoned.
I don't know the answer with your T. I would hope she does know and makes a note of the pattern. If she doesn't, then this is a pity because she really should know this in order to help you. Of course, if you cancel and don't give a reason then she might not know if you were sick or upset but then she should probably clarify this.
Witti
Posted by wittgensteinz on February 5, 2009, at 8:23:23
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call...... » sharon7, posted by raisinb on February 5, 2009, at 8:07:18
Raisinb,
I see your point. I feel envious actually. My T is an analyst and rarely vocalises his feelings toward me. Sometimes I find him cold. He's told me he likes me and after some pushing said he 'cares' and that he 'isn't a robot' but I have the feeling your T has offered far more of her feelings and that has helped you in your trust. I still find it painfully hard to trust him and maybe you're right about seeking a more 'giving' or 'open' approach. My partner always jokes "Dr. X is not exactly Mr. Empathy!". I think deep down he is empathic and caring but he tries to keep it hidden and sees no obligation to let it show (in fact perhaps sees an obligation to keep his countertransference out of view).
Sigh... I feel a bit down about it today, actually.
Different perspectives are important.
Witti
Posted by raisinb on February 5, 2009, at 9:11:23
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call...... » Sharon7, posted by wittgensteinz on February 5, 2009, at 8:10:15
Witti--
I found reading this post very moving, as the issues you describe are so similar to mine. I find myself enacting the same cycles with others, both friends and significant others--and certainly with my therapist. Once as I was sitting there waiting for her to demonstrate enough caring for that particular session, she said, "I feel like I'm annoying you!" which was so the opposite of what I was feeling inside.I should say that you, too, have a good point. No matter how much caring my therapist demonstrates, it doesn't fix the deep abandonment issues--and self-loathing--that I feel. It only helps me to trust her enough to stay so that we can work on that.
Posted by emmanuel98 on February 5, 2009, at 9:14:40
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call...... » Sharon7, posted by Annierose on February 4, 2009, at 22:14:48
I teach and remember students names. I remember the details of their lives if they talk to me about them and I see them for multiple semesters. I asked my T about this and he says most therapists will have 25-30 patients a week, max. When you see those people over months or years, you remember them very, very well. So of course your T knows your name and is aware you haven't been to therapy. I'm sure she's wondering what's going on and can't wait to see you to find out.
You want her to call you and ask, even though you haven't reached out. I'm in AA and T's are like sponsors. If you don't reach out for help,they won't chase you. You have to learn to ask for help and say what you want.
Posted by sharon7 on February 5, 2009, at 9:38:53
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call...... » sharon7, posted by raisinb on February 5, 2009, at 8:07:18
Thanks, raisenb. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond and share your take on this with me. I agree with everything you said. Up to and including whether or not I think this t is going to be the right one to help me with the rejection & abandonment issues I have and to help that child living inside to mature so 'it/she' doesn't keep needing someone to mother it/her.
She give me such mixed signals on that. Sometimes she seems happy to accept the role as sort of like a 'good parent' and other times she doesn't make me feel so warm and fuzzy. I know.. it's all about ME, isn't it? Dr 'x' would say "Sharon, you are not the center of everyone's universe!" I hate when she says that, but she's brutally honest, and that is one of the things I like about her. She will always tell me the truth. Again, the self-centeredness is probably just the nature of the Beast, but I don't want to be self-centered, wearing my feelings on my sleeve, at least as far as her treatment of me is concerned. I know this is just leftover crap from not having been held or nurtured in anyway and not having ever developed a bond with my Mother. I love her (mom) but we're like friends. I love her like I would a friend. She doesn't feel like a "mom." If that makes any sense.
Well, I better get to work. Thanks again, Raisinb. I sure appreciate your insight. I hope you have a good day!
Sharon
Posted by onceupon on February 5, 2009, at 10:59:22
In reply to If my Therapist doesn't call......, posted by Sharon7 on February 4, 2009, at 19:14:33
I apologize if I'm repeating here, as I haven't had time to thoroughly read everyone's responses...
I've certainly felt similarly with previous therapists (but less so with my current one - I'm not so sure why). It hurts to feel like just a number on a file, or a time slot in a week. And it's not much of a stretch to start assuming that therapists don't care or that they don't notice when you're gone. For some extremely overworked or burned out therapists, perhaps that's true. But if your therapist noticed that your pattern is to write after particularly intense sessions, then it sounds like she's paying attention (in the sense that she has to remember previous sessions with you in order to piece this together).
You said that your therapist has brought up this pattern in the past. I'm wondering how your conversation around that went. Were you able to come to a mutual understanding about that process, why you feel the urge to write, what it says about your relationship with her, etc.? If not, it seems like that might be a fruitful topic to revisit.
"Even if I do go, it would be hard to not express my disappointment and sadness that she didn't care enough to see how I was doing since our last session was so rough."
I'm curious too what would be most difficult about expressing your disappointment and sadness. Don't get me wrong, I know what would be difficult about it for *me* (I'd probably fear being ridiculed) but gaining more understanding about this might be helpful for you.
"I've read others post about how their T will call them, or tell them they can call, or email. My T has never said I could call her and has never offered her email. She knows I'll call her if I need to, and the few times I have, she's always called me back, but she does not by any means encourage it. And I get mixed signals from her, although admittedly, my radar is shot."
My therapist has never encouraged me to call. In fact, I don't think I ever have, outside of scheduling stuff. Not because I haven't wanted to, but because I'm balking at asking her if she has a policy about phone calls. For me, this is about simultaneously wanting and fearing further contact with my therapist. Have you ever discussed your therapist's phone/email policy? And as far as radar goes, I struggle with this a lot. I'm hypersensitive to the slightest signal of rejection and can, in fact interpret just about anything to signal rejection. What I'm working very hard on is reality testing these perceptions with my therapist. Whether or not I believe her responses is another question :) Could you imagine directly talking about any of this with your therapist?
As for continuity, I've found it hard in the past that my therapist does not bring up previous difficult topics, as much as I might like her to. And she doesn't always remember what we've talked about either. This is tricky in a lot of ways. I think that sometimes therapists want us to take the lead, and so they won't suggest a direction for a session. And sometimes, they just forget things about us. It's human, so I'll give them that, but it's devastating too. I know there have been previous posters who have discussed how upsetting it is to have therapists forget critical past events. Hmm, what am I trying to say here? I think just that, even though we have different expectations for our therapists than, say, our hair stylists in terms of the care and attention they pay us, in the end, therapists aren't perfect either (darn it!). What I'm finally figuring out is that so much of the work for me in therapy is about experimenting with interpersonal behaviors with my therapist that I'm reluctant to try out IRL, because the consequences are probably going to be different. For me, that means trying to be as direct as possible and getting to a place where I can believe that my therapist isn't lying about her intentions and that she does care about me. I'm maybe one-fiftieth of the way there :)
Posted by raisinb on February 5, 2009, at 14:01:33
In reply to If my Therapist doesn't call......, posted by Sharon7 on February 4, 2009, at 19:14:33
Another poster said that therapists absolutely remember their clients, especially after long periods of time.
I had an experience today that confirms that. Three and a half years ago, when my therapist went on her first maternity leave, I saw the one covering for her. I think I only saw him three or four times. Today when I went to see him again, he not only remembered me, but commented several times on how I'd been reacting to the previous leave and that this reaction was a "huge shift" and an "important" one.
Believe me, if this dude can remember me that clearly after all this time and so little conflict, your therapist certainly remembers--and deeply cares about--you.
Posted by sharon7 on February 5, 2009, at 16:07:02
In reply to some reassurance..., posted by raisinb on February 5, 2009, at 14:01:33
Thank you raisinb. Wow! That's amazing the fill in T remembered from that far back! That's great, though. Gives me some home that perhaps mine actually DOES know my name!!
And I'm so sorry to hear yours didn't have the baby yet which means her leave could be extended. I'm SO glad you went to see the other one.
Thanks for your support. (This ain't for sissys, is it?) lol!
Posted by Sharon7 on February 5, 2009, at 20:36:46
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call...... » Sharon7, posted by wittgensteinz on February 5, 2009, at 8:10:15
**Warning!** This is loooooong.. (o:
Hi Witti. I hope you're feeling a little better. I'm going to try for the first time to comment directly on some of the things you said. Man, I can't believe how much alike we are in a lot of ways, as far as the trust and abandonment issues. We'll have to swap horror stories sometime about how we ended up with these problems! I'll give you a hint about mine: starts with a "M" has 6 letters and ends with an "R." (Bless her heart, though. I know she didn't damage me emotionally intentionally. She suffered a lot as a child, too, so I guess it's just the cycle continuing. Thank God I didn't have children, so it stops here. Sorry.. didn't mean to get back on to ME again! It's all about me! Gosh, I hope not. My therapist told me last time that I'm not the center of the universe. I didn't like that very much. lol.
Here goes:
> .... I have big trust issues. With the slightest sign that someone doesn't mean what they say or are tired of me, I run a mile and don't look back.
That's me to the 'T' (no pun intended.) lol!
> ...... I'd sooner leave the relationship than be abandoned. I also feel a need to test relationships - I never trust that the other person really has good intentions. Of course this 'testing' is very hard on relationships - in my case I wait for the other person to take initiative because I don't want to impose on them/don't want to take the risk of reaching out and being cut off (which gives them the impression that I am not interested in having a relationship with them because they're the one always contacting me and not vice versa). I think that's why the therapy relationship is so hard for me because I am the one having to reach out to him - I go to him, phone him etc.
I feel exactly the same way, witti.
> I realise working with someone like me must be a burden to you. I would hate it that you continue treating me because of your principles or an obligation you feel, rather than a wish to. I would rather you simply stopped and told me to find someone else than this. So, if this is how you do feel, please just tell me. I'll probably feel upset but I'll soon get over it and move on.
>
That sounds exactly like a couple letters I've written to my t. Did yours give you reason to believe he was feeling that way towards you? Reason I ask is, mine never 'said' anything to make me think she felt that way. I pretty much just assumed she did, because, who wouldn't? I start thinking those things due to the way I interpret her vibe sometimes, because I'm so ultra sensitive when it comes to how I 'think' she is acting towards me. I realize how childish this is. Earlier you said your therapist seemed distracted. I wonder if he could be having a crisis in his personal life or something. Because of course, we'd never know!Maybe if I/we could somehow come to understand that our t's are human (well, yours is.. lol! Just kidding! Oh, I'm REAL close to 'somehow-coming-to-understand' the humanity of our therapist. I can't help it right now but I certainly understand it a lot more since talking to all you guys. I just think she's wonderful. Even when she's not as nice to me as I want her to be. But get this: if I felt secure, I mean, REALLY secure (assuming that is even possible for people like me/us,) if I did not worry at all about her dumping me as a patient, not liking me, thinking my behavior is reprehensible (because it is,) not caring about me in whatever capacity she is allowed to as my therapist, if I didn't fear those things, she could act anyway she wants. She could even have a bad day if she wanted to and I would not take it personally. I could get out of this paranoid state. I think I may have felt a little more secure with her earlier on because she even raised her voice to me one time, and I didn't care. (I actually kind of liked it and had in fact been trying to provoke her, which I didn't think was going to work. I was pretty surprised she responded the way I had hoped. But why in the WORLD I would get a 'rise' out of her getting mad at me, and the only reason it didn't bother me in the least is because I felt secure, is a whole other can of worms I suspect! Hey, I may have just crossed over into a form of neuroticism I truly am the pioneer of! LOL! So far, that has not been the case since I've been reading & sharing on here. (o:
> He later said "This pattern of pushing people away is something unconscious, I believe, and rests on your deep fear of abandonment. You might succeed in stepping out of friendships but you won't succeed with me. I won't abandon you, no matter how hard you try."
Man. If mine ever said that to me I would have thought I'd died and gone to heave. I'm not real clear on my timeline. When did you t say that to you?
- And when I thought about it, this desire to test/check is almost like an itch I need to scratch. I don't have enough self-esteem to rest on to reassure myself that "it's ok, don't worry" or to pick myself up again after I do experience abandonment and think "well, that didn't work out but that doesn't mean it never will" - instead I have to check again and again, obsessively. I don't have noisy ruptures with people (although having noisy ruptures is not so different in the end result), instead I tiptoe away with the belief "they didn't like me, they didn't care - I'm not worthy of being liked and people intrinsically 'feel' that when they meet me".
That is almost erie (sp?) how much that sounds like me. For whatever that's worth to you. You are not alone.
> The problem with this approach to relationships (apart from the obvious one that it can bring about their end!) is that the only definite conclusion one can reach about the other person is a negative one. I mean, when I think about it, is there anything that my T could do to prove to me that he does care?That is a very good question. I hope we can both get this resolved once and for all. Mine does not constantly reassure me. She has told me before that she won't give up on me or 'fire me' as we call it, but like you, I worry 'something's changed' since she said that. I wonder how many times she'd have to say it before I'd actually believe it?
>the only answer that would bring this anxiety to an end is the knowledge that he does NOT care - is his permanent abandonment (the very thing I am anxious about).
I don't believe that is true, witti. There must be an answer and a way for us to resolve our fears.
>
> Take the example of your therapist and her chairs - she starts sitting on a different chair and this leads you to think "is this a sign she wants to get rid of me?" - I would probably have thought the same had my therapist done this (and there are enough things I could point out that he's done to give me pause for thought). I might think "he takes the other chair so as not to be so comfortable because he doesn't want to get comfortable with me/get used to seeing me, as soon he'll get rid of me". Of course this is just the power of a creative mind but it's very hard living with these thoughts and stopping them from spiraling out of control without someone regulating them.Exactly. See what I mean? You think just like me in many ways on this issue. I have taken some comfort in that. I had no idea how cathartic it would be just knowing there were other people suffering with the same BS I am. (Well, I'm not glad others are suffering! lol! You know what I mean!)
> ...... I guess I want to say "you're not alone" but this is something very difficult to work through (on your own) and I'm sure your therapist knows this too - so please find a way to see your therapist again.
I will. Thank you so much. I hope you're feeling better. I think I am. (o:
Sharon
Posted by Sharon7 on February 5, 2009, at 21:10:52
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call......, posted by emmanuel98 on February 5, 2009, at 9:14:40
Thank you so much for your message, emmanuel. Believe it or not, after reading your post, it made me start to wonder if thinking my therapist doesn't care about me may even be insulting to her. I mean, I always wanted to be a psychologist or some kind of therapist, maybe a drug counselor (once I am no longer using of course.. I'm obviously not moving towards accomplishing any of that s right at this moment..) but the only reason I would want to be in that profession is for wanting to help people with their problems to get better.
So as wonderful as my t is, and I'm sure she's a nice person IRL, too. I believe she does care about her patients, and I'm sure she wouldn't have become a psychologist if she did not care about people and helping them. It's just ME she doesn't care about! lol. Just kidding. More of me thinking I'm the center of the universe again. But it's not usually in a positive way!
You made me feel lots better. Thanks for saying my t knows my name and might have even noticed I haven't been to see her in 2 weeks (or otherwise tried to contact her.)
Take it easy. (o:
Sharon
Posted by Sharon7 on February 5, 2009, at 22:39:13
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call...... » Sharon7, posted by onceupon on February 5, 2009, at 10:59:22
Hey, onceupon! Thank you so much for that. You have definitely given me some very good things to think about. I appreciate you taking the time to respond so thoroughly (I always have trbl spelling that word!) Anyway, I wanted to respond directly to some things you said and answer some of your ?'s. K? K. (o:
> .... It hurts to feel like just a number on a file, or a time slot in a week. And it's not much of a stretch to start assuming that therapists don't care or that they don't notice when you're gone.
You know, I actually had sort of like a moment of clarity (or maturity? nah. couldn't be that!) but I was wondering if my implying my t doesn't care about her patients may even be insulting to her, because I know she became a psychologist to help people with their problems. It makes her sound like a cold hearted person, but she's not.
>.....it sounds like she's paying attention (in the sense that she has to remember previous sessions with you in order to piece this [pattern of yours] together).
Good point. Thanks. I really do expect a lot from her I guess.
>
> You said that your therapist has brought up this pattern in the past. I'm wondering how your conversation around that went.?We've actually never had a conversation about it. I always avoid talking to her about it. The most she'll do to encourage me to discuss the letters is to leave them laying right out in the open on my next visit. When I see them there, I react as if they are radioactive and basically freak out until she puts them away! I'm not even gonna waste my breathe asking her not to keep them. See, I've been seeing her for 1.5 years, but I went to her originally because i had been grieving about my husband leaving me and getting divorced.. 8 years ago! I just got stuck there. Anyway, only recently have I begun to feel better about that and she did help me get better where that issue is concerned, but now all this crap resulting from my childhood has risen to the surface and I'm finding these things nearly impossible to talk about. I need to try and open up to her more. I just need more reassurance that she's not going dump me. I hope she can help me with it, though. It's really no fun to be 44 and feel 14 on an emotional level (on a good day. lol!!)
> Were you able to come to a mutual understanding about that process, why you feel the urge to write, what it says about your relationship with her, etc.? If not, it seems like that might be a fruitful topic to revisit.
So yeah.. no discussion as of yet, so nothing to revisit.
>
> I'm curious too what would be most difficult about expressing your disappointment and sadness...?Because I'm like crippled when it comes to expressing my feelings (because of the way I grew up) and my vigilance to make sure I don't do or say ANYTHING that could result in my being abandoned or rejected, makes it impossible for me right now to open up about stuff like love and feelings. I don't know how to. She might need to try and help me give voice to what has never been spoken. She seems determined not to do that, though. We always have plenty to talk about, though, with all my other my bad behavior, but i think the escalation in my 'self-soothing' has to do with the anxiety I have about what's happening (and not happening)in therapy and with my therapist.
> ... Have you ever discussed your therapist's phone/email policy?
No, we have never discussed it. It's like she won't bring up anything!
>..... I'm hypersensitive to the slightest signal of rejection and can, in fact interpret just about anything to signal rejection.Me too. Sounds exactly like me.
>..... What I'm working very hard on is reality testing these perceptions with my therapist.
That's great! I'm glad you are at a place where you are even considering doing that. You can do it. (Just because I can't right now, doesn't mean you can't, or that I won't eventually, too!)
> ..Could you imagine directly talking about any of this with your therapist?
Heaven's no! I would love to get to where I could, though.
> As for continuity, I've found it hard in the past that my therapist does not bring up previous difficult topics, as much as I might like her to. And she doesn't always remember what we've talked about either. This is tricky in a lot of ways. I think that sometimes therapists want us to take the lead, and so they won't suggest a direction for a session. And sometimes, they just forget things about us. It's human, so I'll give them that
Thanks for making me feel better about that. I need to be more helpful to her perhaps and help her to remember where we left off. Hmmm? Could be a good way to get some positive reinforcement from her! I'M ON IT! lol! (o:
> .... even though we have different expectations for our therapists than, say, our hair stylists in terms of the care and attention they pay us, in the end, therapists aren't perfect either (darn it!). What I'm finally figuring out is that so much of the work for me in therapy is about experimenting with interpersonal behaviors with my therapist that I'm reluctant to try out IRL, because the consequences are probably going to be different. For me, that means trying to be as direct as possible and getting to a place where I can believe that my therapist isn't lying about her intentions and that she does care about me.
That was so well said and it was really helpful to me. Thanks for all your insight. It sounds like you are doing very well. It's really nice to get some of this stuff I've been stuggling with cleared up! My t is gonna think I should cancel my appts more often! lol! Unless of course the dysfunction takes over as it has been known to do.
Take care. Keep up the good work! It's nice to know I'm not the only one struggling with this (but that doesn't mean I'm glad you're stuggling.. you know what I mean.
Sharon
Posted by wittgensteinz on February 6, 2009, at 7:25:35
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call...... » wittgensteinz, posted by Sharon7 on February 5, 2009, at 20:36:46
Thanks for the reply. As for the background to my problems - it probably won't surprise you to hear that my MOTHER (or momster as some people affectionately refer to them) was a big factor. Again she had a very rough time of things as an only child to an abusive father and she then repeated much of the abuse on me (and my brother) - emotional and physical. But me being the daughter, I think I effectively became a vessel for her own self-hatred and that's something hard for a child to bear. This question of a cycle and choosing to continue it or not troubles me. I am young, and motherhood is a possibility but at the back of my mind I always have the worry of whether I might end up just like my own mother.
My T mentioned a while back in a mail that "my internalised mother never fails to pop in to say a word or two" - I found this amusing but perceptive - we do internalise our parents and in a way continue to abuse ourselves by repeating the same things that were screamed at us as children. My mother is still there but doesn't have the same power over me IRL as she did, yet this internalised mother still reigns supreme.
Anyway, enough about mothers :)
You asked me about my e-mail to my T: "Did yours give you reason to believe he was feeling that way towards you?" No, not especially - like you said, it's just how I 'felt' or 'assumed' he must feel about me.
I may be way off but could it be that you got some kind of reassurance out of making your T raise her voice because she then fitted what you expected of a mother-figure? Somehow, your attempt to repeat what you had already experienced?
My T's comment about not abandoning me was said recently - a couple of weeks ago - it did feel reassuring. What I think he meant by it is that he knows why I have this need to check and to worry, and that he doesn't judge me for it and won't succumb to it. He's said that sometimes "it can be hard when you don't trust me but given your past it's completely understandable why you have such a lack of trust". I should say he has a strict no-suicide policy and if I would do anything like that (again) that would be it, so there is an exception - although he insists that if I would do that then that would be my choice to abandon him and not vice versa (hmm rhetoric!). He doesn't set time-limits for therapy (althoug he's past retirement so there are probably biological time-limits).
I just saw him today and it was nice - the last few sessions I've felt a reluctance to go. I've left the house almost too late to catch the train. He asked why and I didn't really know. I said I felt a distance between us. I also said I felt angry with the world, including him - which is something I haven't admitted directly before now. Having a rant about lots of silly little things and frustrations that accumulate into big things was lifting. So by the end that distance was bridged and I feel better.
Sorry I'm blabbering on! Let us know how things go between now and Wednesday. Whatever you decide, people will be here to support you.
Witti
Posted by lucie lu on February 6, 2009, at 11:56:48
In reply to If my Therapist doesn't call......, posted by Sharon7 on February 4, 2009, at 19:14:33
Hi Sharon,
The "dance" you describe is so familiar :) The thing that has helped the most with that is open and honest discussion between both parties.
My T decided early on to encourage me to call as needed. He felt that given my history of loss and neglect, it was important for my therapy to offer me someone consistent to turn to. I didn't call much with emergencies - well OK, maybe I did more often in the early days when there were more emergencies. But mostly, they were prior-scheduled "touch base" calls, usually on weekends when I tended to get anxious. These were brief, mostly because of my own discomfort with them. When I said that to him, he said that he knew and that was exactly the point - for me to learn to learn to ask for help and judge when I needed it. He now expects that I will be able to handle things differently, have more resources etc. But he did say that while that is the goal, if I am going through something unusually stressful that may overwhelm my personal and interpersonal resources, then if I can't, I can't, and then he is still there if needed.
Funny, since I am more an email person than a phone person (I hate the phone), I have only emailed him twice over the years, both about non-personal things. I have always had his email address but he never encouraged me to use it. I think I was concerned myself about over-using it. I have also never written something and sent it to him outside of session, although many, many times I have written something (e.g. journaling) and shared it with him in session. My T feels strongly about promoting live interactions with me, rather than written messages, given my antisocial proclivities ;)
Early on, there was a pattern similar to what you describe with ruptures, quitting therapy, testing him with that. We came up with a pretty funny, almost tongue-in-cheek system of shared communication about quitting. If I called to quit therapy after a session(and in the first few years of therapy I threatened to several times though I only really quit once, for 6 months), then I was feeling exceptionally insecure for some reason and needed reassurance, i.e. that he wanted to continue therapy with me, that I mattered to him and couldn't drive him away etc. He is not one for openly affectionate statements, but his feelings are clear nonetheless, and he is really good at making me feel valued. Then we would talk about my insecurity or doubts or whatever when we got together next. But if I were seriously feeling that I really wanted to quit, then I would tell him that straight out so he would best know how to respond to me and my concerns. This "red flag" helped avoid serious misunderstanding at a critical time. Kind of like your doctor needing to know whether your fever is low or dangerously high - is it 100.5 or 105.0 - so they know how to treat you. While this may seem like game-playing, it actually made our mutual signals clearer as we learned what to reasonably expect from one another. This is not usually necessary now - the last time I made such a call (recently), I told him that I was feeling like not going to the next session and briefly why, but that I was willing to talk about it first. So we set up a time to talk beforehand on the phone and then I went to the session after all, and it was useful. I still may feel like testing him occasionally but usually now it is with words rather than actions. ("Are you frustrated with my lack of progress?" and the goldie, "I know I am a really difficult patient..." which he denies.)
We have learned not to assume that we know one another's meaning without confirming it. Usually we are on the same page but there have been times that surprised us both, that we were thinking such different things. Significant misunderstandings that have caused large or small ruptures were not easily identified until we stepped back and compared notes. We can now do this reality-checking with one another pretty smoothly and consistently. ("Is this what you meant, because that's how I took it...") I have learned that's what it takes to be understood by someone else - there are no mind-readers (except maybe Dinah :)
One thing you mentioned was wondering about her feelings, whether she was insulted by your questioning her feelings for you. Remember that your keeping your worryies to yourself about this, while natural, is really counter-productive to your therapy. Discuss this with her. Most T's are so used to getting this from patients, it's part of their day-by-day territory. And honest negotiation between you around those feelings is really important, a therapy goal in itself.
So... talk, talk, talk.
Good luck!
Lucie
Posted by Sharon7 on February 6, 2009, at 23:34:42
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call......, posted by wittgensteinz on February 6, 2009, at 7:25:35
Hi Witti! Nice to talk to you again. I'm sorry you had to grow up with a dysfunctional (doesn't that just make it sound so sanitized?) Mother. You know what? I was never blessed with children and I always wanted them. Even though I too was severely neglected and abused, of course it crossed my mind "what if I can't be a mother like my mom couldn't?" a couple of times. I always felt that if I had a baby I would be SOOOO nurturing to him/her. This child w/b the most well-adjusted, confident, curious, happy, smart, secure kid in the world. I thought by having a child, I could be that Mother I always fantacized of having by being that to my child. I honestly think if anything, at least in my case, the severity of my neglect probably would have insured a child who never lacked for anything: emotional or physical. Know what I mean? I know there's more than one school of thought on that. Have you discussed your concerns about this with your therapist?
> My mother is still there but doesn't have the same power over me IRL as she did, yet this internalised mother still reigns supreme.
When she did have the power over you, what form did that take? And as the internalized mother now, what does she do? Just like say things that are critical and mean or is it something else. (only if you're comfortable discussing it of course! I'm just one of those people that likes details I guess.
> Anyway, enough about mothers :)
lol. Okay. For now. (o:
> You asked me about my e-mail to my T: "Did yours give you reason to believe he was feeling that way towards you?" No, not especially - like you said, it's just how I 'felt' or 'assumed' he must feel about me.
Yeah. You must have fears similar as mine at the thought of losing your T.
> I may be way off but could it be that you got some kind of reassurance out of making your T raise her voice because she then fitted what you expected of a mother-figure? Somehow, your attempt to repeat what you had already experienced?
You know what? I think you may have hit the nail on the head at least about the first part "because she then fitted what you expected of a mother-figure?" I think that is true. But as for "Somehow, your attempt to repeat what you had already experienced?" I think you're very close, but it would not be to repeat what I had already experienced, but what I never did experience. My mother did not treat me like a mother, so she never corrected or scolded me. I was pretty much ignored. Watched a lot of TV! I also wonder if part of it is, the fact that it does not upset me or make me mad is proof to myself (and maybe to her, too?) that I am secure enough in the relationship to where she can take that tone with me if she needs to and I won't take it personally, but I'll think she cares and it trying to teach me better behavior. (It really screwed me up not being parented, let me tell you!) I guess that's fairly obvious! Thank you for analyzing that. You were not way off at all!
> My T's comment about not abandoning me was said recently - a couple of weeks ago - it did feel reassuring.
Mine can be pretty tight lipped. She often doesn't respond at all to things I say and I wonder why sometimes. I can't say she has never said she won't abandon me cuz she has, but I guess maybe I/we can never hear it enough, huh? Even when I last saw her and it didn't go well I did hear her say "I'm not going anywhere. I'm not firing you.." but she was saying that because that's usually stuff I'd say to her (in a letter) after one of those episodes. But she still did say it.
> I should say he has a strict no-suicide policy and if I would do anything like that (again) that would be it, so there is an exception - although he insists that if I would do that then that would be my choice to abandon him and not vice versa (hmm rhetoric!).
Hey, I like that reverse psychology! That was a pretty good response: that then you'd be abandoning him.. If mine had said that me me, i would have disolved into a heap of mush lol. Well, I'm with him, and my T, too. She just said that if I ever gave her any indication I was going to harm myself, she would be obligated to have me admitted to the hospital.
> I just saw him today and it was nice - the last few sessions I've felt a reluctance to go. I've left the house almost too late to catch the train. He asked why and I didn't really know. I said I felt a distance between us. I also said I felt angry with the world, including him - which is something I haven't admitted directly before now. Having a rant about lots of silly little things and frustrations that accumulate into big things was lifting. So by the end that distance was bridged and I feel better.
Oh good, witti! I'm glad to hear you had a good session today and feel like that distance you were feeling has been bridged. I'm so glad you feel better. And really glad you didn't miss the train!
>
> Sorry I'm blabbering on!Don't apologize, silly. (I always say that too, though, 'cept I really AM blabbering when I say it!) lol! (did I hear an 'Amen' out there?) I find this interesting and I am discovering just how powerful sharing some of this mess can be! When you know you are not going to be judged.
I hope you have a good weekend. Take care now.
Sharon (o:
Posted by Sharon7 on February 7, 2009, at 14:14:24
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call...... » Sharon7, posted by lucie lu on February 6, 2009, at 11:56:48
Hi Lucy! You know what's strange? I could have sworn I responded to you last night but I am not seeing it here! Well! hmm? maybe i forgot to hit confirm or something.
Anyway, i was thanking you for sharing your experiences. I really like hearing how others are dealing with this stuff. It sounds like you are doing very well and that you have a caring therapist who wants to work with you on this.
You know, I wish my T was more like yours in that, I wish she would be even just a 'little' available to me in between visits. It certainly wouldn't be often because I worry so much about being a bother to her (or doing something that would cause her to throw in the towel with me.) I assume most T's are not accessible outside of the appt time, but as you and I know, with these kind of trust and abandoment issues, I think it would be very helpful, even just to know (or at least 'think') it was "okay" to reach out in between sessions during a crisis, even if just by allowing an occassional email, maybe until we're not quite so insecure and don't require constant reassurance. Know what I mean? I'm glad you can email your T. I wish I could email mine sometime but like I said before, i won't run the risk of asking for her email address because I expect she'd say "no." Besides, I figure if she wanted me to have her email address, she'd give it to me.
I really need to try and speak with her about what's going on inside, to see if she is even willing (and even cares to. A huge component!)try and help me resolve my need to be mothered. It distresses me greatly that in my 40's, these feelings are still possible. One of my greatest fears was that I would not simply grow out of this. I had to believe that, because I didn't know what to do to make it stop. Well, my fear is being realized. There's nothing I can say to myself to to feel better about still needing someone to mother me in my mid-40's, although, if I were to have some moment of compassion on myself (not likely) could easily come to the conclusion that no matter how old you get, people still need their mother, but not in the child like way I feel I want/need one. I honestly don't know if that can ever be replaced. Perhaps it's more a matter of learning to cope with it. I just don't want to be 80 and still feel this way, like something very important is missing on the inside. I fear this is a need that can never be satisfied. I like to hope it can, or at least the amount of suffering it causes.
I did want to say, I will call my T during a major emotional crisis. i've had to call her 3 or 4 times in 1.5 years, but it was always during normal business hours with the understanding she would return my call when she finished work. I both anxiously anticipated, as well as dreaded her return call. She never told me it was okay to call, even in an emergency. I just did and it was scary each time. She was certainly not over joyed at having to call me, although she didn't just come right out and say that. It was more her tone of voice and shortness I guess. (Unless that was just my perception. Always gotta throw that in because of my faulty antenna & radar system.) This might sound selfish, but I feel like with as much money as I pay for her services, if she has return a call to me on a rare occasion during a crisis, I think I should have that benefit. She might disagree. (I could not even fathom calling her after work or on the weekends! I'm sure she's glad about that.)
Sorry. Didn't mean to wander off into "Me-ville!" I seem to make frequent stops there!
Anyway, thanks for your reply. i hope your journey to wholeness continues to progress at exactly the speed that will insure permanent relief from these demons we face.
Take care now. Hope you're having a nice weekend.
Sharon (o:
Posted by wittgensteinz on February 8, 2009, at 5:40:21
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call...... » wittgensteinz, posted by Sharon7 on February 6, 2009, at 23:34:42
By the way, good for you for phoning your T - it sucks the secretary was so incompetent but that's besides the point. You did it and that's a big thing!
My fears with motherhood are either that despite my efforts I'd morph into my mother or that in trying to do the opposite I would somehow harm the child all the same. I had a very strict mother, so I would probably be too lenient and unstructured with my children, or that's my fear. I'd want them to feel free, not suffocated. I've talked with my T in passing - he asked me if I saw myself as a mother - he said he thought I would be a vigorous and lively mother - did he mean a 'fun' mother? Or lively as in volatile?! I would like to be like my dad's mother - she was so much fun and more importantly she was stable and reasonable.
You asked what kind of power my mother had over me. I wasn't neglected - the opposite perhaps - my mother needed to control everything. She needed to know everything that was going on and if it didn't fit what she wanted then all hell would let loose. Examples best explain it: if I didn't do something quite right, she'd make me repeat it over and over and over - she'd make me do the washing up 5 times over and as punishment for not using hot enough water ("how can you expect the dishes to be clean if you use lukewarm water?") she'd make me hold my hands under a scolding hot tap and call me a baby for finding it too hot. If I put something back in the wrong place, this would lead to hours of hysterics and physical punishment (this went on until I left home at 18) - I remember one time I placed a spoon the 'wrong way up' on the draining board after doing the washing up - this was enough to trigger one of these episodes. She would routinely go through my rubbish bin (in front of me) to check I didn't hide anything from her. She made me eat with a bib until I was well into junior school because she said I ate like a baby - she made me wear the bib in front of my friends, on my birthdays. Sometimes I'd be fast asleep and she'd suddenly become angry about something or find something wrong and come rushing into my room screaming. I could never relax - if I was in a room on my own, I always had to be behind a closed door to feel safe and I never sat with my back to the door - I always had to be ready.
The thing with my mother was that she had two sides - sometimes she'd be sweet and loving, she'd buy me presents, give me cuddles, encourage me to share my thoughts/feelings. Then unexpectedly she'd switch into an hysterical angry and sadistic person. She'd find a reason to punish me, and there was always something, and take the gift away, break it or return it to the shop, and she'd go into this long tyrade about how pathetic I was, citing all those very things I'd told her when she was being nice. So she'd be kind, I'd let myself be vulnerable and begin to trust her and then suddenly a few hours (or a day or so) later she'd flip and suddenly all that vulnerability and trust would come back to bite me, and this pattern repeated itself again and again until I simply stopped trusting. I think that's what's now at the root of my problems with trust. I'm forever waiting for my therapist to 'flip' into the sadist. When someone's nice or encouraging or complimentary, I cannot escape a voice in my head warning me that they don't mean that at all and in a matter of time they'll use it against me. That's the 'internalised mother' - a cynical voice telling me not to be so stupid and naive - telling me that no-one would possibly want anything with me, that if they're being nice, it's only so they can have fun in hurting me later. I spent my youth walking on tip-toes - also with others, terrified I would upset them at any moment. I was not able to stand up for myself - standing up for myself was not an option at home. At school the other kids soon latched on to the fact that I'd do anything without complaining, so they'd use me and laugh at me - throw rubbish at me and tell me to put it in the bin, that kind of thing.
So, again a long reply. The relationship between being negelcted and unnoticed and your fears that your T doesn't rememember your name etc. is logical I think. Would you be able to share more about the impact of your mother on you now? Maybe it makes sense of your strong attachment to some women as mother-figures.
I had a very passive father - he just stood and watched and never dared to stand up for me or my brother, even if my mother was standing there with a knife in her hand pointed at me (which happened on occasion). I've never yearned for a mother - but I adored my father and yearned for him to be there for me. So, I see the connection between a weak father and my desire to find a father figure strong enough to stand up for me and protect me - hence I guess my transference for my therapist (I also felt a strong attachment to a male teacher I had in high school - I even fantasied that my parents died in an accident and that I could go and live with him as his daughter).
Ok, I'll stop there. I hope this wasn't a case of TMI!
Witti
Posted by lucie lu on February 8, 2009, at 22:06:09
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call...... » lucie lu, posted by Sharon7 on February 7, 2009, at 14:14:24
Sharon,
Just wanted to clarify something. My T has never encouraged me to email him. When I first started with him 6 years ago, I think he was experimenting with giving patients his email address, so it was on his business card. I soon noticed that his newer cards didn't have his email on them anymore. (Guess he must have decided the experiment was a failure.) I emailed him only once at that time, about an appt, and he suggested it would be better to do it by phone. So we have never emailed about anything therapy-related. This appears not to be the case with everyone here, based on what others have said.
The other thing I wanted to say is that we all have a tendency towards "the grass is greener." With all the good, caring things my T does, I still feel wounded sometimes because he doesn't give me presents. Or talismans. Or hugs. Or tell me he loves me. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade him for anything in the world! I think he is a great therapist and I feel very lucky to have him. But I sure would like those other things too, and feel deprived and envious when someone else gets them and I don't (lol). Human nature, I suppose.
Lucie
Posted by onceupon on February 10, 2009, at 23:29:17
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call...... » onceupon, posted by Sharon7 on February 5, 2009, at 22:39:13
> You know, I actually had sort of like a moment of clarity (or maturity? nah. couldn't be that!) but I was wondering if my implying my t doesn't care about her patients may even be insulting to her, because I know she became a psychologist to help people with their problems. It makes her sound like a cold hearted person, but she's not.I think someone else already posted it below, but I imagine that your therapist understands that your perceptions of her aren't just about her. I hope that doesn't sound harsh - I don't mean it to.
> We've actually never had a conversation about it. I always avoid talking to her about it. The most she'll do to encourage me to discuss the letters is to leave them laying right out in the open on my next visit. When I see them there, I react as if they are radioactive and basically freak out until she puts them away! I'm not even gonna waste my breathe asking her not to keep them. See, I've been seeing her for 1.5 years, but I went to her originally because i had been grieving about my husband leaving me and getting divorced.. 8 years ago! I just got stuck there. Anyway, only recently have I begun to feel better about that and she did help me get better where that issue is concerned, but now all this crap resulting from my childhood has risen to the surface and I'm finding these things nearly impossible to talk about. I need to try and open up to her more. I just need more reassurance that she's not going dump me. I hope she can help me with it, though. It's really no fun to be 44 and feel 14 on an emotional level (on a good day. lol!!)I hear you on this one. I'm 31, and feel about 5 on an emotional level much of the time that I'm in therapy :) It seems like therapy (for me), goes back and forth between processing day-to-day concerns, and getting into "deeper" stuff. I find it frustrating to have to switch back and forth so much, because it feels like it takes a lot of gearing up to get to the deep stuff. I'm guessing that more frequent therapy would help with that, but I just don't think it's feasible for me financially.
I am glad to hear that you've found some resolution about your divorce. And I don't blame you for avoiding talking about the letters! It's a risky undertaking, to be sure, but probably valuable too. And here I'm speaking mostly hypothetically because it takes me ages to work up to discussing my relationship with my therapist.
> Because I'm like crippled when it comes to expressing my feelings (because of the way I grew up) and my vigilance to make sure I don't do or say ANYTHING that could result in my being abandoned or rejected, makes it impossible for me right now to open up about stuff like love and feelings. I don't know how to. She might need to try and help me give voice to what has never been spoken. She seems determined not to do that, though. We always have plenty to talk about, though, with all my other my bad behavior, but i think the escalation in my 'self-soothing' has to do with the anxiety I have about what's happening (and not happening)in therapy and with my therapist.It's funny how it's all interconnected, huh?
> Take care. Keep up the good work! It's nice to know I'm not the only one struggling with this (but that doesn't mean I'm glad you're stuggling.. you know what I mean.Thanks, you too. And I do know what you mean. Babble's been a lifesaver - even if I don't find resolution, I often find comraderie, and that feels just as important.
Posted by sharon7 on February 11, 2009, at 12:30:40
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call...... » Sharon7, posted by wittgensteinz on February 8, 2009, at 5:40:21
WITTI!! Dang! I'm sorry. I totally meant to write back to you on this. I don't have time right now to really do it justice because I'm at work, but I wanted you to know I read everything you said, and no, absolutely not 'TMI.' I love my 'I.' Gives me a clearer picture.
Man, that must have really been rough on you with your Mom being that way. I'm so sorry. The Jekyl and Hyde thing almost seems worse (and may very well be) than having a full-time "Hyde," know what I mean? I mean, if someone's a Hyde, you expect them to be a Hyde so at least the behavior is predictable. With the switching back and forth between the two, though, you must have felt like you were walking around on egg shells (and I do believe you said that you did, in fact.)
As for you concerns abt Motherhood, they are reasonable, but I doubt very seriously you'd do like your Mom, the total control freak. Or the over-indulgent parent, either. Keep talking to your T about it. I'm sure your T meant "vigorous and lively" in the most positive of ways. You may also want to think about parenting classes. I think those would be a good idea for anyone thinking of having children. (o:
Well, sorry I was not able to address everything you said. Get this: before I typed this message, I had one all ready to send to you where I had commented directly on several things you said. I was almost finished and we lost power here at the office! I was like ARGHGHGHGH!!! Anyway, I wanted you to know I did see this and sorry I did not comment sooner. Thanks for taking the time to share that with me. Never TMI.
I hope you're doing well today. 'Talk' to you soon. (o:
Sharon
Posted by sharon7 on February 11, 2009, at 12:33:31
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call...... » Sharon7, posted by onceupon on February 10, 2009, at 23:29:17
Thanks again, onceupon. I appreciate your feedback, encouragement, and support. (o: Yes, there is something very comforting in knowing you are not the only one having these issues!!
Posted by sharon7 on February 11, 2009, at 12:42:00
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call...... » Sharon7, posted by lucie lu on February 8, 2009, at 22:06:09
Thanks for the feedback, lucie. That does give me a different perspective. I guess it's human nature to want or 'think' we want what we don't have. I too am very thankful for my T, and I'm not going to lament the fact that she's never offered me her email address. It's good to know that she is probably not the only T that prefers not to communicate with me that way. She's probably way too busy for that anyway.
Thanks again for all the encouragement and support, lucie. I really appreciate it and it's really making a difference. (o:
Posted by cmac13 on March 11, 2009, at 12:12:28
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call...... » lucie lu, posted by Sharon7 on February 7, 2009, at 14:14:24
My therapist has no problems with telephone calls or letter writing between sessions. She always calls back if i ask her to usually that same day if she can. She generally does not initiate a phone call however on a couple of occassions when I had doctor's appointment and was terrified of going to them due to "touch" issues she called that same day to see how I was and to make sure I was okay and to just process it all. I never expected a telephone call but when she did call me it made me feel cared for and I appreciated it.
Posted by tractor13 on April 27, 2013, at 4:39:04
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call...... » Sharon7, posted by wittgensteinz on February 5, 2009, at 8:10:15
Hi Witti
Your post has made so much sense to me , and not too long. I feel as there is someone out there that understands. Thank you.
Do you think that if they dont return a couple of call requests they are fed up with you.
:(
Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2013, at 13:50:36
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call......, posted by tractor13 on April 27, 2013, at 4:39:04
There are so many reasons that without input, it's hard to tell what's going on. And of course, without contact, it's impossible to find out.
It's natural to consider that the reasons are personal, but sometimes it's just life that gets in the way.
Posted by tractor13 on April 27, 2013, at 16:47:26
In reply to Re: If my Therapist doesn't call......, posted by tractor13 on April 27, 2013, at 4:39:04
Thank you I see someone as a result of losing my partner through murder less thsn a year ago. I am in massiv financial debt and I am seling my home. The grief is eally intense but I have been getting through with help from my therapist. In the beginning he was really helpful and I was able to call a few times and speak with him, but this year he is so so busy and often dosent return a call. I do feel like a burden at coming as I feel my situation is not warranted of his busy time. I do feel that I have done something and he is tired of me. Should i stop going?. As I lost my partner, I feel rejected even by someone who i could trust.
This is the end of the thread.
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