![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 56. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by susan47 on August 29, 2008, at 14:44:41
Well, if I were a T and my ex-Patient was blabbering on here about my conduct with her, I might be (a) furious
(b) a nervous wreck
(c) ne'er a ripple on the pond.I have got to turn myself in, for I am committing some kind of emotional blackmail here, and in spite of the fact that therapy went South really fast, and I felt these intense emotions, and today I want to kill myself for feeling them, and not understanding what was happening to me, I still feel, part of my soul feels like I am committing a crime worse than anything else and that is Emotional Blackmail, and if that is true then I am a thief, a Soul Thief, and now I feel like I am completely going over-the-edge into psychosis, Whoa Nelly.
Posted by susan47 on August 29, 2008, at 14:45:58
In reply to I'm Going to Turn Myself In, posted by susan47 on August 29, 2008, at 14:44:41
Perhaps I am merely having a moment of real Sanity.
Which is it?
Madness, or Sanity?What would Jung have said about what is happening to me right now, internally?
WHAT????????????
Posted by Just Me33 on August 29, 2008, at 15:11:33
In reply to I'm Going to Turn Myself In, posted by susan47 on August 29, 2008, at 14:44:41
This is from Sunny10...she wanted me to send it to you! -JustME33-
"hey, Susan47, I know I've been out of touch- I work on the computer all day long and really hate going on it at home! Things are great. Besides moving to Texas with my husband of two years now (moved as our honeymoon!), we have now adopted three cats inside and two outside and a dog. I now have a big, happy family. Hunter will be seventeen next month and he is doing great. JustMe33 is a great pal of mine. We do everything together when I'm not spending quality "alone time' with Scott. I hope all is well with you. Feel free to email me- just don't hold your breath for a speedy reply. I do get to my email, but it sometimes takes a couple of weeks! Love ya, bye
Posted by rskontos on August 29, 2008, at 17:10:35
In reply to Re: I'm Going to Turn Myself In, posted by Just Me33 on August 29, 2008, at 15:11:33
Susan, this is just my take on it. I don't know the whole story and like Ladybug my memory aint' what it used to be, but I think it takes two to tango.
I don't think in any case the therapee is to blame. You are acting like you are wholly to blame for your therapy going south. As the professional I think your T needed to know when to stop things from getting out of hand. He needed to say whoa nelly not you.
I think and this is just my humble opinion, that you are being way way way too hard on yourself. I mean in a sense you are saying that you went to therapy messed up in your marriage and you found comfort and somehow you should have know how to filter that. I don't think so. He the T needed to recognize prior to things going South that things were going down a bad path.
I think you need a break from this kind of thinking.
Just my 2 cents.
rsk
Posted by Racer on August 30, 2008, at 1:49:11
In reply to I'm Going to Turn Myself In, posted by susan47 on August 29, 2008, at 14:44:41
First of all, the therapist is the professional, and is the one who's supposed to recognize problems. That's why the client pays the therapist, not the other way around, right?
That's a trigger point for me this week, by the way, so if that wasn't helpful, ignore it.
What I really wanted to say, though, was this:
I am anorexic -- although, as anyone with AN will tell you, "no I'm not, people only think I am" -- and probably the hardest part for me is that I KNOW how crazy I am sometimes. I know that I'm not rational. I know that my thinking is distorted. I know that what's going on inside my head is, you know, just f'ing nuts sometimes. (Don't I sound pathetic, now that I look at it that way...) I know all that -- and it makes no difference whatsoever.
I'm sharing this with you, Susan, because I want you to know that you're not alone with some of this. It's not hard to make oneself crazy with the "I should not have had this problem" thinking. It's not helpful, all it does is feed the worst feelings. I try very hard to think about what I'd say to someone else with the same story as mine -- I know I'd be a lot more compassionate towards anyone else. I like to think I am compassionate, supportive, comforting, and a nurturing to my friends, so I try to remember to use some of the same qualities in my self-talk.
Susan, did something happen recently that brought this up for you? It seemed as though you had more distance from this not that long ago. I know that I sometimes use my own treatment trauma against myself -- mostly the same sorts of things you seem to be saying to yourself -- but it's really the expression of increasing depression, dissatisfaction with other parts of my life, stress, insecurity, etc. Do you think this might be some sort of displacement on your part?
Best luck, and I hope you feel better soon.
Posted by seldomseen on August 30, 2008, at 11:36:01
In reply to Re: I'm Going to Turn Myself In, posted by rskontos on August 29, 2008, at 17:10:35
" I don't think in any case the therapee is to blame. You are acting like you are wholly to blame for your therapy going south. As the professional I think your T needed to know when to stop things from getting out of hand. He needed to say whoa nelly not you."
Let me first emphasize that what follows is my thoughts only on this paragraph and do not relate to any one particular case. Everyone's therapy is specific to them. I also do not think my thoughts apply at all to inpatient situations or to children.
What sparked my thinking was the notion that the therapee is freed from responsibility when therapy goes bad. I'm not sure I agree with that and would also add that I'm not sure we should think that way at all.
I think therapy is very much a two way street. Both parties are responsible for the content and their responses both in and out of the therapeutic space. I think therapy is a place where we may freely talk about how we feel and divest ourselves of some horrible stuff, but, as adults, we are very much in charge of our reactions. While we cant help the way we feel (obviously), we can and should be responsible for those feelings, learn from them and develop the skills to handle them. That is our work in therapy and the therapist, I think, should be considered a coach, and not the boss of our recovery.
When something bad does happen, we owe it to ourselves to examine our part of it. To really look at and sort out what our contribution really was. Whether it was staying in the situation too long, not being open to warning signs, or not controlling our own behaviour. If we simply say well it was the therapist then I think this does 2 very damaging things. (1) It keeps us from identifying problems in the way we handle things, thus impairing change and (2) I think it locks us into the perpetual victimhood that some of us are all too familiar with. As adults we are no longer in that powerless place of childhood. We can effect change and direct the course of our own life, and that includes our therapy. Think of how empowering it would be to realize the no one is in charge of my behaviour or can even affect it but me! Without that internal locus of control, quite often we give ourselves permission (consciously or otherwise) to act quite badly.
Im also convinced, and this is new thing for me, that the notion of blame is pretty outdated. It connotes all kinds of negative things and does nothing to fix the problem, whether it be in therapy or anywhere else. The focus should be the problem, what led to it, how to fix it, and how to prevent it from happening again.
Now, having said all of this, I will also say that there are some lousy lousy professionals out there and its hard to spot the good ones from the bad ones sometimes. There are also times when, upon examination, we are not responsible for something happening at all. But everything merits that examination nonetheless.
Seldom.
Posted by Phillipa on August 30, 2008, at 12:51:28
In reply to General thoughts on the subject of responsibility » rskontos, posted by seldomseen on August 30, 2008, at 11:36:01
Amen seems I find every one of them myself!!! Phillipa
Posted by susan47 on August 30, 2008, at 13:31:07
In reply to Re: I'm Going to Turn Myself In, posted by Just Me33 on August 29, 2008, at 15:11:33
Thanks, Sunny. I'm really happy for you, it's been a tough road but you're doing well and that's what matters to me. But about those two outside cats ... remember our bird population is dying really fast and outdoor cats are a huge, HUGE FACTOR as to why .. we cannot afford to lose birds ... I also have an outdoor cat BUT MY LAST and that crap about how they cull the old and the sick is crap, birds have to spend time on the ground while they're learning to fly, it is the young ones they get too ... listen for the sound of birds during the day....
I hope Sunny realizes I'm not a nutcase just because I used this soapbox for a spiel.
Hi, Sunny, M-wah!!!! Mwah all over the place, baby.
Posted by Racer on August 30, 2008, at 15:53:15
In reply to Re: I'm Going to Turn Myself In » Just Me33, posted by susan47 on August 30, 2008, at 13:31:07
> Thanks, Sunny. But about those two outside cats ...
I do this too -- the tangents, and I think it's kinda charming whenever I see it.
My argument about outdoor cats -- after spending an entire night and a month's salary getting a cat patched up at the emergency vet clinic -- is a little different from yours, though. There are two things a cat can do outside that he/she can't do inside -- get sick, and get hurt. (Although I've get to bring live rodents in for my cats, they're usually quite happy when a fly or moth gets in, and they do keep our household safe from aluminium foil crumples and ball point pens.)
The one exception to that in my view, however, are barn cats -- feral cats who wouldn't be "tame-able" into household pets, who perform a job for the barns by reducing the rodent population.
And I think I agree with some of what SeldomSeen had to say. She made a very good point about joint responsibility in a bad therapeutic situation. Since I, too, had a Very Bad Experience, I'm going to pick it apart a little -- which by no means indicates that I don't agree with the premise. This is mostly clarifying it for me.
First, responsibility is different from blame. You can accept responsibility for acting out the transference, and that doesn't mean you have to blame yourself for it.
Second -- your therapist is a professional, and is expected to recognize certain dynamics which we, the clients, may not consciously aware of. It's not that he should somehow have controlled you -- but I think a therapist really is responsible for helping us become consciously aware of those behavior patterns which interfere with our quality of life. Setting boundaries is often an area that people struggle in, and I expect a good therapist to model boundary setting. I guess what I'm saying is that it's not his fault -- but I don't think he did his job in a way I would consider even minimal standard of care.
And my disclaimer -- we've only heard your side of this, so we're getting only one perspective. I don't think his perspective would be perfectly objective in this, and I don't imagine yours is, either -- but you've very clearly conveyed over the past few years your emotional reality of that period. Maybe he did try to set boundaries, and you couldn't recognize them? Maybe he unconsciously encouraged your transference for his own gratification. Maybe he was replaced by a pod person who grew in his backyard. All I know is that I really do see a different set of responsibilities for client and clinician -- and I tend to think that controlling the process is largely the responsibility of the one with training in that area, just as I tend to think teachers are responsible for controlling the classroom.
Sorry for the wordiness -- I'm concision challenged, you know...
Posted by rskontos on August 30, 2008, at 16:11:40
In reply to LOL! Monkey brain... » susan47, posted by Racer on August 30, 2008, at 15:53:15
Posted by susan47 on August 30, 2008, at 16:51:47
In reply to Re: I'm Going to Turn Myself In, posted by rskontos on August 29, 2008, at 17:10:35
Thank you for this.
Posted by susan47 on August 30, 2008, at 17:14:47
In reply to RSK is onto something regarding responsibility » susan47, posted by Racer on August 30, 2008, at 1:49:11
> First of all, the therapist is the professional, and is the one who's supposed to recognize problems. That's why the client pays the therapist, not the other way around, right?
So does this mean I am entitled to a Refund? That would be lovely. I deserve one, I'm quite sure about about that.> That's a trigger point for me this week, by the way, so if that wasn't helpful, ignore it.
We are supposed to pay them it seems no matter how much they are allowed to hurt us.
> What I really wanted to say, though, was this:
>
> I am anorexic -- although, as anyone with AN will tell you, "no I'm not, people only think I am" -- and probably the hardest part for me is that I KNOW how crazy I am sometimes. I know that I'm not rational. I know that my thinking is distorted. I know that what's going on inside my head is, you know, just f'ing nuts sometimes. (Don't I sound pathetic, now that I look at it that way...) I know all that -- and it makes no difference whatsoever.I totally get what you are saying. Knowing about your own thinking processes is a double-edged sword, as NO ONE is rational 100% of the time but most people absolutely do not see that about themselves. Some do. The ones who see it and can't change it on their own, who seek help and find the help isn't adequate but is parading itself as being so .. there's the rub.
>
> I'm sharing this with you, Susan, because I want you to know that you're not alone with some of this. It's not hard to make oneself crazy with the "I should not have had this problem" thinking. It's not helpful, all it does is feed the worst feelings. I try very hard to think about what I'd say to someone else with the same story as mine -- I know I'd be a lot more compassionate towards anyone else. I like to think I am compassionate, supportive, comforting, and a nurturing to my friends, so I try to remember to use some of the same qualities in my self-talk.
>
> Susan, did something happen recently that brought this up for you? It seemed as though you had more distance from this not that long ago. I know that I sometimes use my own treatment trauma against myself -- mostly the same sorts of things you seem to be saying to yourself -- but it's really the expression of increasing depression, dissatisfaction with other parts of my life, stress, insecurity, etc. Do you think this might be some sort of displacement on your part?I'm feeling a lot of pressure to move forward in my life; I've been diagnosed Borderline which was a huge shock and depressing too not to mention suffering depression not to mention being a drug addict not to mention having identity problems not to mention the almost-conversion from being Atheist to Christian, not to mention the Reiki or the Soul Retrieval, not to mention I am stark f*ck*ng raving TIRED of not feeling what I WISH to be feeling, which is IN LOVE the way I was in love with cw, which he is really just a therapist who's getting old and is very middle of the road but helps people because they let him. And because he believes he can, what was it that someone said whatever you believe you can, you can and whatever you believe you can't, you can't. So believe in yourself .. he has a belief, a real Belief in himself, it's the thing that allowed him to Shut Me Down, to close me out, to break my life's blood here on the altar of forgiveness, I FORGIVE YOU damn it, you hurt me he laid me open and made my soul BLEED, let me bleed into his heart, and his heart hurts worse than mine does, I think my heart hurts? How much does the heart of someone who's been psychically wronged really hurt?
So yes, I'm being triggered all over the f*ck*ng place lately, Racer, and you STILL haven't told me your story....
>
> Best luck, and I hope you feel better soon.Thank you, I'm doing the best I can to be vital and alive; most moments are like sludging through mud.
Posted by susan47 on August 30, 2008, at 17:27:21
In reply to General thoughts on the subject of responsibility » rskontos, posted by seldomseen on August 30, 2008, at 11:36:01
> " I don't think in any case the therapee is to blame. You are acting like you are wholly to blame for your therapy going south. As the professional I think your T needed to know when to stop things from getting out of hand. He needed to say whoa nelly not you."
>
> Let me first emphasize that what follows is my thoughts only on this paragraph and do not relate to any one particular case. Everyone's therapy is specific to them. I also do not think my thoughts apply at all to inpatient situations or to children.
>
> What sparked my thinking was the notion that the therapee is freed from responsibility when therapy goes bad. I'm not sure I agree with that and would also add that I'm not sure we should think that way at all.
>
> I think therapy is very much a two way street. Both parties are responsible for the content and their responses both in and out of the therapeutic space. I think therapy is a place where we may freely talk about how we feel and divest ourselves of some horrible stuff, but, as adults, we are very much in charge of our reactions. While we cant help the way we feel (obviously), we can and should be responsible for those feelings, learn from them and develop the skills to handle them. That is our work in therapy and the therapist, I think, should be considered a coach, and not the boss of our recovery.
>
> When something bad does happen, we owe it to ourselves to examine our part of it. To really look at and sort out what our contribution really was. Whether it was staying in the situation too long, not being open to warning signs, or not controlling our own behaviour. If we simply say well it was the therapist then I think this does 2 very damaging things. (1) It keeps us from identifying problems in the way we handle things, thus impairing change and (2) I think it locks us into the perpetual victimhood that some of us are all too familiar with. As adults we are no longer in that powerless place of childhood. We can effect change and direct the course of our own life, and that includes our therapy. Think of how empowering it would be to realize the no one is in charge of my behaviour or can even affect it but me! Without that internal locus of control, quite often we give ourselves permission (consciously or otherwise) to act quite badly.I do have that inner voice that tells me whoa, hold on, what are you doing.... and I consciously took marihuana to shut it up. Because somewhere along the line, very early on in the relationship, I had given myself permission (?) to do that, to shut the voice up, to be as crazy as I had to be in order to exorcise the demon that was myself .. and that demon, I believe, is none other than the illicit love I felt for my own father. He was a demon who squashed me my whole life, who still does, who I feel responsible for, who I feel I created, by being some ugly awful monster. So transference? You bet. And somehow I have to be responsible for that, too. I do.
>
> Im also convinced, and this is new thing for me, that the notion of blame is pretty outdated. It connotes all kinds of negative things and does nothing to fix the problem, whether it be in therapy or anywhere else. The focus should be the problem, what led to it, how to fix it, and how to prevent it from happening again.And in all parties verbally and fully taking responsibility in their own part for what went wrong, in bad therapy. And this is something we don't have, yet. There is no method or system for this, and it holds up healing. Damn it. Why does NOBODY LISTEN? It's as if I were invisible, and the more invisible I feel, the more rage I want to express.
>
> Now, having said all of this, I will also say that there are some lousy lousy professionals out there and its hard to spot the good ones from the bad ones sometimes. There are also times when, upon examination, we are not responsible for something happening at all. But everything merits that examination nonetheless.You betcha.
>
> Seldom.
>
Susan.
Posted by Racer on August 30, 2008, at 17:48:02
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility, posted by susan47 on August 30, 2008, at 17:27:21
> >The focus should be the problem, what led to it, how to fix it, and how to prevent it from happening again.
>
> And in all parties verbally and fully taking responsibility in their own part for what went wrong, in bad therapy. And this is something we don't have, yet. There is no method or system for this, and it holds up healing. Damn it. Why does NOBODY LISTEN? It's as if I were invisible, and the more invisible I feel, the more rage I want to express.
> >I've got some of the same issues, Susan -- and the hardest part for me is recognizing that I will NEVER get acknowledgment from the other side that ANYTHING that happened included ANY responsibility on the part of ANYONE other than me. (That's not distortion, by the bye -- I went through a formal complaint process, and that was their written response.) These people, who failed to meet my treatment needs in such varied and damaging ways, will NEVER satisfy this need for me.
Here's my question to myself, which might help you: "what, exactly, would I get out of an apology from them?" It's taken four years for me to internalize the answer -- "I would get validation." Simple as that.
Next question I started working on: "Since I'm never going to get that validation from the source I want it from, how else can I satisfy that need?" And that's the hard part.
For more than three years now, I've had a therapist who has provided validation on this subject. She has offered every kind of reassurance she knew how. She has tried to help me express my anger at them. She's good at all that, too. Since I still struggle so hard with that question, there's obviously something which is still missing. The Bad Ones said one thing about me; the Good Enough One contradicts nearly everything they said, and has included as much objective support for her view as exists. Hm... Why am I giving so much more weight to people I *know* to be inadequate, less competent? Why can't I transfer that need for validation to someone I respect so much more?
If I ever answer any of that, I'll let you know.
Posted by seldomseen on August 31, 2008, at 10:04:38
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility, posted by susan47 on August 30, 2008, at 17:27:21
"He was a demon who squashed me my whole life, who still does, who I feel responsible for, who I feel I created, by being some ugly awful monster."
I think this is an assumption that you need to challenge every single day. Your father may be a demon, but you certainly did not create him. You were a child. How could you? You are not an ugly awful monster. It's a tape that you can change now as an adult.
"So transference? You bet. And somehow I have to be responsible for that, too. I do."
As I said, I don't think we can help the way we feel, we can only learn from our feelings and use them as catalysts for change. Feeling transference is normal don't you think?
"And in all parties verbally and fully taking responsibility in their own part for what went wrong, in bad therapy. And this is something we don't have, yet. There is no method or system for this, and it holds up healing."
I agree, there should be some sort of rational debriefing so to speak when therapy ends badly. Instead, it usually ends up adversarial and very very emotionally charged on both parts. Therapists tend to close the ranks to protect themselves and just can't or won't admit any culpability at all. It just makes more work for us. It's too bad, because it would really benefit everyone.
"Damn it. Why does NOBODY LISTEN? It's as if I were invisible, and the more invisible I feel, the more rage I want to express."
Susan, I'm sorry I don't know your whole story, but I'm here and will listen. You are not invisible. What exactly do you want to say and who do you want to say it to?
I think you just said something very important already, that the more invisible you feel, the more rage you want to express. Do you think there are specific steps that you could take to feel less invisible?
Seldom.
Posted by Racer on August 31, 2008, at 11:11:48
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility » susan47, posted by seldomseen on August 31, 2008, at 10:04:38
>
> I agree, there should be some sort of rational debriefing so to speak when therapy ends badly. Instead, it usually ends up adversarial and very very emotionally charged on both parts. Therapists tend to close the ranks to protect themselves and just can't or won't admit any culpability at all.My own bad treatment situation was a bit different from Susan's, and I DID file complaints with all the relevant licensing agencies. At some point afterwards, my therapist -- who probably provides more self-disclosure than many are comfortable with -- told me something I actually found chilling:
When she first read the history I'd written of those events for the complaint process, the bulleted summary from the complaint, and the final complaint documents, she wondered if she would be better off -- safer -- referring me away, in case this was an extreme example of splitting.
Now, by the time she told me about her reservations about me, her considerations about whether I'd write the same style of pretty plausible complaint about her if she didn't satisfy my every want, we knew each other that it was a bonding experience. (I melted with that, "ah, and you gave me a chance" gratitude.)
By then, we had formed a working therapeutic alliance, we'd been through problems together, worked them out together, and the transference involved in those sessions the ones right after the bad ones was mostly the healthy-modeling/Good Enough Mother variety, where we both gave a little, and both came out satisfied with the resulting communication and the resulting therapeutic relationship. In other words, I had shown the signs of splitting that most of the world has done now and again -- "I just don't like you at all today! You're not listening to me!" I probably scowled at her, too, or maybe even glared. (Since I can't write poetry, Poet is trying to teach me to glare instead. I want her to know I'm practicing.)
So, the closing ranks isn't necessarily one of those "they all stick together, no matter what." It may often be a simple case of self-preservation -- "that therapist probably was pretty bad -- but what if the client misinterpreted appropriate therapeutic dynamics? And what if that gets focused on me, next?"
And, of course, in some cases, therapist probably decide that it doesn't matter who is responsible for any portion of the southern road trip involved -- "closure" only comes through the grieving process, which doesn't require any contact with the allegedly sub-optimal therapist, and will therefore resist anything that involves further discussion of the other party's alleged failings.
******************************************
The thing that bothers me most about it all, though, is that there are some very black and white rules -- sex between T and client is strictly verboten within [time frame]. So, let's say they run into one another at a bar, [time frame less six weeks] after the end of a very short run together (for the sake of argument -- after six weeks, the T realized there was some chemistry which would interfere with the process and refers the client on), they're both young, single, maybe a little exuberant (The Giants just won the World Series), maybe they've gotten a little over-frolicked on the alcohol side, and ... They make a mistake. They do not exercise the best judgment possible. And the T can still lose his/her license for it.
And yet, a T whose negligent disregard of very clear signs of a worsening psychiatric condition leads to severe damage for the client -- is often considered too subjective to investigate.
Sorry -- I went off on one of my tangents again...
Posted by susan47 on August 31, 2008, at 12:08:50
In reply to LOL! Monkey brain... » susan47, posted by Racer on August 30, 2008, at 15:53:15
> > Thanks, Sunny. But about those two outside cats ...
>
> I do this too -- the tangents, and I think it's kinda charming whenever I see it.
>
> My argument about outdoor cats -- after spending an entire night and a month's salary getting a cat patched up at the emergency vet clinic -- is a little different from yours, though. There are two things a cat can do outside that he/she can't do inside -- get sick, and get hurt. (Although I've get to bring live rodents in for my cats, they're usually quite happy when a fly or moth gets in, and they do keep our household safe from aluminium foil crumples and ball point pens.)
>
> The one exception to that in my view, however, are barn cats -- feral cats who wouldn't be "tame-able" into household pets, who perform a job for the barns by reducing the rodent population.
>
I agree with you Racer, and we do need some cats outdoors there's no doubt about it, I know the city I live in struggles with a large rat population and what other creature do we live with that has roaming rights and the ability to kill a rat? But it's the decimation of the bird population that has me really worried. And now bees too, or maybe bees are a precursor.. it doesn't really matter, does it? Aren't we near the end of our habitation on the planet? (Sorry to go so deep, didn't mean to)> And I think I agree with some of what SeldomSeen had to say. She made a very good point about joint responsibility in a bad therapeutic situation. Since I, too, had a Very Bad Experience, I'm going to pick it apart a little -- which by no means indicates that I don't agree with the premise. This is mostly clarifying it for me.
>
> First, responsibility is different from blame. You can accept responsibility for acting out the transference, and that doesn't mean you have to blame yourself for it.
>
Okay. I accept responsibility for acting out the transference. That's a given, as I made a promise to myself that this was going to be my last attempt to straighten myself out .. when I felt the "love" hit me, (I remember the actual moment of awareness distinctly to this day) I felt like I'd been overpowered by wonderful fairy dust .. and it didn't feel real, either. It also felt like I wasn't good enough .. immediately with the overpowering feeling of love, desire, to be in the company of this wonderful person, came a feeling of not being good enough. Triggers all over the place.> Second -- your therapist is a professional, and is expected to recognize certain dynamics which we, the clients, may not consciously aware of. It's not that he should somehow have controlled you -- but I think a therapist really is responsible for helping us become consciously aware of those behavior patterns which interfere with our quality of life.
It's fair to say that my quality of life went downhill very quickly after I started using the telephone as a system of relief from my intense feelings.
"Setting boundaries is often an area that people struggle in, and I expect a good therapist to model boundary setting. I guess what I'm saying is that it's not his fault -- but I don't think he did his job in a way I would consider even minimal standard of care."
I think he tried, but trying isn't really the issue. The results are what count. The results sucked; I couldn't stop phoning if my life depended on it, and my life did depend on my phoning and getting release from intense emotions, which marihuana use was also bringing up. It's strange that he didn't approach this issue the way other therapists did. He didn't approach any of the issues they did, actually, in the very beginning of other therapies there's always certain statements that are made; he didn't make many himself. Perhaps he didn't feel it necessary as I'd originally gone to him with my husband at the time for marriage counselling (Hah! it was useless also. It was more about the therapist than us, strangely enough. How does this happen?)
>> And my disclaimer -- we've only heard your side of this, so we're getting only one perspective. I don't think his perspective would be perfectly objective in this, and I don't imagine yours is, either -- but you've very clearly conveyed over the past few years your emotional reality of that period. Maybe he did try to set boundaries, and you couldn't recognize them?
Quite possible. I'd be interested in going over what those ways were; I know there were some. For one, he told me he'd only listen to my first two phone calls every day. Which didn't make much difference to me, because it was the relief of making the calls that mattered, not so much his attention to them, although that factored in some of the content I'm sure. I had to make sure I didn't sound completely stupid with emotion .. although that was a pipe dream I'm sure. I used to wonder if he listened to what I said and understood any of it the way it was spoken. Because each time I phoned, I was overcome by intense feeling and need.
"Maybe he unconsciously encouraged your transference for his own gratification."
Absolutely possible.
"Maybe he was replaced by a pod person who grew in his backyard."
Maybe. :)
"All I know is that I really do see a different set of responsibilities for client and clinician -- and I tend to think that controlling the process is largely the responsibility of the one with training in that area, just as I tend to think teachers are responsible for controlling the classroom.
>
I agree with you. So do many others I've talked to, but it doesn't change my feelings of failure over the whole therapy thing, over him knowing the real me, or the real me never being able to come out and be accepted. That's the part that I can't get over. I've never been accepted, all the feelings I had that I shared, none of them were ever validated by anyone; using a telephone was a mistake, all the important things went into the atmosphere and I am left empty.> Sorry for the wordiness -- I'm concision challenged, you know...
Not at all.
Posted by lemonaide on August 31, 2008, at 12:20:44
In reply to small comment to add to this »Susan47 » seldomseen, posted by Racer on August 31, 2008, at 11:11:48
Racer and Susan,
I totally understand the need to have validation about what your T did to you. My T has problems doing this and has offered me to talk to someone else regarding this, at least he is being honest with me that he has trouble doing it because of his own issues.
I was looking for an apology in the beginning, but now I know that will never happen, my T didn't want me to send him a letter yet to my old T, not being able to really vent and have validations from my T about my old T, I felt trapped with those feelings.I had a blog and a posted my poems about what happened and yes I put his name on it. At first it was out of anger, but now it is for justice of what he did to me. I don't plan on contacting the licensing board, it would only hurt me more hearing what he has to say in his defensive stance.
My whole life I had to hide what others did to me, no longer. If my T is upset what I wrote in my poems, well good then, maybe he will change the way he does therapy. So for me I have a way to say what he did, and how it made me feel, and I don't have to hear his b*llsh*t defensive responses to it.I really don't care what others think who happen to read the poems think, let him answer the questions to those who ask, like his wife, family and colleagues who matter to him. I don't need the answers anymore, they don't matter to me, but I won't hide what he did to me.
I have had my part in this I know but.......... even my husband has told me this, It wasn't like a normal relationship where both parties have a part in it, it was a professional relationship. I was paying him to help me, he is suppose to do no harm and act in my best interests, so he has the responsibility of keeping it ethical. I didn't pay him to be seductive towards me, and that certainly didn't help me, it harmed me. So I can understand how you want your money back, I do too, I was paying for a service I am not happy with. Plus you can add the current therapy bill to help me get over the harm he did. So yeah, he does owe me more than an apology.
Posted by lemonaide on August 31, 2008, at 12:38:00
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility » susan47, posted by Racer on August 30, 2008, at 17:48:02
Why am I giving so much more weight to people I *know* to be inadequate, less competent? Why can't I transfer that need for validation to someone I respect so much more?
Racer,
This is a very good question.
Posted by susan47 on August 31, 2008, at 14:00:27
In reply to small comment to add to this »Susan47 » seldomseen, posted by Racer on August 31, 2008, at 11:11:48
> >
>
> And yet, a T whose negligent disregard of very clear signs of a worsening psychiatric condition leads to severe damage for the client -- is often considered too subjective to investigate.
>
> Sorry -- I went off on one of my tangents again...Not at all.
Posted by seldomseen on August 31, 2008, at 14:01:02
In reply to Racer-valadation, posted by lemonaide on August 31, 2008, at 12:38:00
It IS a very good question. And again, I think my response might be a little controversial, but just bear with me.
Let's face it. If we all came from validating childhoods most likely none of us would be in the situations we are in.
I think we give a lot of credence to people we shouldn't because they say what we are most comfortable hearing. I suspect we may even seek out the bad sometimes. We are used to it "fitting" with what we think of ourselves. It may be evil, but it's a known evil.
So, here comes someone who seeks to challenge that fit and replace it with what should be there. For me, it was simply a fresh kind of hell.
I kept (keep) reverting to the old tapes that just play and play in my head. It still feels as though I'm just simply "trying it on" sometimes. But not as often as it used to.
It takes work, every single day we have to work to listen only to the people that are saying the right things. We can re-write those tapes.
Seldom.
Posted by susan47 on August 31, 2008, at 14:11:47
In reply to ((((Susan)))) » Racer, posted by lemonaide on August 31, 2008, at 12:20:44
> Racer and Susan,
>
> I totally understand the need to have validation about what your T did to you. My T has problems doing this and has offered me to talk to someone else regarding this, at least he is being honest with me that he has trouble doing it because of his own issues.Not much from him and his ego, but at least it was something. The problem is that he may not be honest with himself or with you, actually, because his own issues may not trouble him in the least.
> I was looking for an apology in the beginning, but now I know that will never happen, my T didn't want me to send him a letter yet to my old T, not being able to really vent and have validations from my T about my old T, I felt trapped with those feelings.
>
I just got lost in the logistics of this, sorry .. but an apology from anyone carries an admission of wrongdoing, and that may be too much for an overextended ego to deal with. I think T's generally suffer from this condition, psychiatrists as well.
> I had a blog and a posted my poems about what happened and yes I put his name on it. At first it was out of anger, but now it is for justice of what he did to me. I don't plan on contacting the licensing board, it would only hurt me more hearing what he has to say in his defensive stance.I agree. We're WAY TOO VULNERABLE in a "therapeutic" (HAH!) relationship. (HAH again, as any man or woman who cannot be in an honest relationship with him/herself has ZERO chance of positively affecting the outcome of a relationship with a co-partner in healing. ANY RELATIONSHIP has to be either healing or damaging, there is no in-between; relationships are psycho-dynamic and I am so angry with the profession for ignoring the very thing they are supposed to be working on. F*CK THEM. And f*ck my ex-dear-T, whose initials I have openly used, and hints I have given about where I reside, which city I live in, and where, because I want someone to know this was done, I want someone to know. And it won't make a whit of difference to the one person who could have righted all the wrongs. Because his silence, my dear, is Stony. And it is cutting my feet to ribbons.
> My whole life I had to hide what others did to me, no longer. If my T is upset what I wrote in my poems, well good then, maybe he will change the way he does therapy. So for me I have a way to say what he did, and how it made me feel, and I don't have to hear his b*llsh*t defensive responses to it.
>Absolutely. The pen is mightier than the sword.
> I really don't care what others think who happen to read the poems think, let him answer the questions to those who ask, like his wife, family and colleagues who matter to him. I don't need the answers anymore, they don't matter to me, but I won't hide what he did to me.
>
And your job is to be as open and public about this as possible while still getting the respect you deserve, for being a human working on your human frailties, and for having the courage to stand for Love, for what's Right in the world, and exposing those who only pretend, for their own ego's gratification.> I have had my part in this I know but.......... even my husband has told me this, It wasn't like a normal relationship where both parties have a part in it, it was a professional relationship. I was paying him to help me, he is suppose to do no harm and act in my best interests, so he has the responsibility of keeping it ethical. I didn't pay him to be seductive towards me, and that certainly didn't help me, it harmed me. So I can understand how you want your money back, I do too, I was paying for a service I am not happy with. Plus you can add the current therapy bill to help me get over the harm he did. So yeah, he does owe me more than an apology.
Absolutely, and this is where I stand as well.
Posted by susan47 on August 31, 2008, at 14:26:12
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility » susan47, posted by Racer on August 30, 2008, at 17:48:02
Why can't I transfer that need for validation to someone I respect so much more?
>
> If I ever answer any of that, I'll let you know.Your post makes a lot of sense. I understand what you are saying. I don't know if your issue has to do with love, but mine does, and it seems to me that when something as big and unknowable as the heart is involved in our transactions with people, when we are in a vulnerable state of being in love with someone, and that person is our therapist, and that person lets us down when we are displaying signs of illness or unhappiness (which we will if we are predisposed to that), we will be left holding the bag, not them, as it is us who are flawed, and in any human transaction, the weaker one loses.
It's just the way of the world.
Knowing that I am weak does not increase my self-love.
Posted by susan47 on August 31, 2008, at 14:36:15
In reply to Re: General thoughts on the subject of responsibility » susan47, posted by seldomseen on August 31, 2008, at 10:04:38
>
> I think this is an assumption that you need to challenge every single day. Your father may be a demon, but you certainly did not create him. You were a child. How could you? You are not an ugly awful monster. It's a tape that you can change now as an adult.
>
Yes, and I definitely am needing help in doing that.> "So transference? You bet. And somehow I have to be responsible for that, too. I do."
>
> As I said, I don't think we can help the way we feel, we can only learn from our feelings and use them as catalysts for change. Feeling transference is normal don't you think?
>
> "And in all parties verbally and fully taking responsibility in their own part for what went wrong, in bad therapy. And this is something we don't have, yet. There is no method or system for this, and it holds up healing."
>
> I agree, there should be some sort of rational debriefing so to speak when therapy ends badly. Instead, it usually ends up adversarial and very very emotionally charged on both parts. Therapists tend to close the ranks to protect themselves and just can't or won't admit any culpability at all. It just makes more work for us. It's too bad, because it would really benefit everyone.
>
REALLY?? I find that interesting. Too much work for you. Well, well, well. TOO BAD??? You say it's TOO BAD? Give your head a shake. It's life-threatening, and "it would really benefit everyone" but it's too bad that you have nothing in place, well if it would really benefit everyone, WHY THE HELL ISN'T ANYONE DOING SOMETHING TO CHANGE THIS REALITY TO MAKE A NEW REALITY???? Your laid-bad attitude is really something else. It's the reason people like me walk around suicidal. You seem like a respectable, reasonable, responsible, empathic person and yet you have just left chills down my spine. It is the attitude of the frog in the water, honey.> "Damn it. Why does NOBODY LISTEN? It's as if I were invisible, and the more invisible I feel, the more rage I want to express."
>
> Susan, I'm sorry I don't know your whole story, but I'm here and will listen. You are not invisible. What exactly do you want to say and who do you want to say it to?
>If you were my therapist, I would have just said it to him. Exactly the way it has to be expressed. At least, a portion of it.
> I think you just said something very important already, that the more invisible you feel, the more rage you want to express. Do you think there are specific steps that you could take to feel less invisible?
>
> Seldom.
>I hope I have not offended you too greatly.
Posted by lemonaide on August 31, 2008, at 14:45:05
In reply to Re: Racer-valadation, posted by seldomseen on August 31, 2008, at 14:01:02
Hi Seldom,
You know we are friends and I have a lot of respect for you but I just don't get what you are saying. I know many of us repeat the patterns of abuse or relationships like what we experienced in childhood. But shouldn't T's help us get out of that pattern instead of becoming that pattern?
It almost sound to me, and I may be off here, but it sounds like you are putting the victim at fault here for having an unethical relationship with their T.
If I have this wrong, please let me know, I am open to what you are saying, I just don't understand it.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.